Oh and pencil grip - I can't remember what my first did but my 2nd and 3rd children have held a pen quite well from the first time they have picked one up. But have then seemed to go backwards when trying to figure out how to make it work. Both my older girls have low tone issues, the 2nd mostly in her hands so that may be at play. I certainly do see that some kids would just get this "right" from the start, either because it feels right to them or because they are copying what they see.