I'm new to this site and I'm still trying to decide if my dd2 is gifted. Here is my list of her recent milestones/accomplishments. Can anyone give me any insight on any of this? She just seems so smart - I amazed all the time by what she is learning but I am her mother so I know I am biased.

1 year, 5 months: Talking in short sentences � able to communicate her thoughts and needs verbally.

1 year, 8 months: Dresses herself completely, choosing what to wear and putting everything on herself including socks and shoes.

1 year, 10 months: Insists on wearing ds5�s clothes. She knows what clothes are his based on color and style because they are boy clothes � not whether she�s seen him wear them before. If it�s pink or purple or it�s a dress, she doesn�t want to wear it.

2 years:

*Sings: Twinkle, Twinkle; Row, Row, Row your Boat; Rock a Bye Baby getting most words correct but sometimes repeats lines
*Makes up her own songs and sings them again at a later time (Row your boat, row your boat, be nice to your brother!)
*Talks in grammatically correct complete sentences almost all the time
*If she says something incorrectly, I repeat it back to her using the correct word and she repeats it back correctly and seems to understand and take note of what she just learned.
*Is able to locate objects using multiple descriptions (for example, your baby is in the living room on the floor on the other side of the couch)
*Insists on rocking herself and singing at bedtime. She sits in rocking chair and rocks while she sings the songs I used to sing to her. I have to sit on the floor but she does take song requests. She then must climb into the crib herself or she throws a fit.
*Insists on doing virtually everything herself: climbing into mini-van, climbing into car seat, getting into booster chair (these take a lot of strength and determination on her part because she has to pull herself up using her upper body without getting her knee up because of her size), taking off and putting on toothpaste lid, taking off and putting on juice lid, turning off the TV, turning off the light, buckles her booster seat. If someone does it for her, we have to un-do it so she can re-do it or she throws a fit.
*Can find toys, etc. that are in the house because she remembers where she last saw them.

2 years, 2 months:

*Able to carry on conversations with adults and older children.
*Knows most of her colors
*Counts to 9 easily
*Has counted to 13 in the past, occasionally skipping a number
*Sings ABCs easily (first time singing ABCs was at 1 year, 8 months)
*Stopped wanting to sing the songs she sang every night 2 months ago (we stopped the singing and rocking when she moved out of the crib since it was such an ordeal � now I miss having her sing to me!)
*Helps me unload the dishwasher without being asked � hands me dishes to put away.
*Has very mild interest in dolls/babies � more interested in exploring environment and playing with Sam and his toys.
*Has started asking me to identify some letters for her. Up until this time, she has not had much interest in letters.
*Draws in circular motion and says �look, I drew a circle!�
*Draws an oval and tells me it's an oval.
*Not much interest in actually using the potty anymore however she changes her pull-up on her own, without me asking her, when it�s wet (who needs a potty when you�re wearing a portable toilet and can change it on your own?)

And if she is gifted, how should I parent any differently? Has anyone read "Parent's guide to raising a gifted toddler: Recognizing and developing the potential of your child from birth to five years?" Is that a good place to start? Thanks!

I almost forgot my favorite thing she does... at age 2, we got all the Bill Martin/Eric Carle books like Brown Bear, Brown Bear. I would do the answer part like "I see a Blue Heron looking at me." She would then do the question part on the next page... "Blue Heron, Blue Heron, what do you see?" - we did all 4 books like this and she could name all the animals on the final page (like macaroni penguin, water buffalo, blue sea turtle, etc. - not your basic animals like cow and pig). Then I realized we could make a game out of it and I could name anything in the room - "I see a table looking at me." and she answered with "Table, table, what do you see?" She thought that was hilarious. Sorry for the long post - I just had to share that since no one else I know with small children would believe me.

Welcome!

I have not read that particular book so I can't recommend it one way or the other.
Your dd sounds pretty tremendous, however from experience I can say it can be pretty hard to tell 'for sure' if your child is gifted when they are a toddler unless they are doing something utterly off the charts like reading at 2 or 3, or doing simple math at 3.
I think those things are pretty darn rare - that would make things too easy!
(It can be hard to tell even after they've tested 'gt'! Lol!)

I am no expert but I think all the things you describe certainly should have you reading up on giftedness and offering her plenty of play oriented learning opportunities.
(verbally/physically precocious, counting well already, and highly independent)

I have read on this forum "follow their lead"; that seems to sum up a lot of what a gt toddler needs us to do.

Thanks, Chris! Yes, we do a lot of the "follow their lead" around here. She is at this moment taking apart and putting back together our kitchen chair with a screwdriver.

I like parenting books by Sylvia Rimm for advice specific to the particular challenges of gifted kids.

Have you seen 'Losing our minds: Gifted children left behind' by Deb Ruf. I reccomend reading that one for seeing your daughter 'in context.'

BTW - I think you answered your own question 'is she gifted' with your last line: no one else I know with small children would believe me.

When you can't talk to your local peer group, that's a fairly reliable sign.

I reccomend joining your state gifted association and to strongly consider getting your 5 year old son tested for giftedness. He is quite likely to be gifted also, although perhaps more in line with other family members, and you want to start learning how to be a gifted advocate with him, if needed. If you think I'm just being silly, spend some time with him in school looking at the other children, not just his friends, but all the other kids in the room.

I'm so glad you found us. I do know what it's like to not be able to 'share' locally.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks, Grinity. I do think my ds5 is gifted. He was too young to start Kindergarten this year because of his birthdate and he wasn't socially ready anyway (in hindsight, he would have probably been fine in a half-day program but we only have full-days here). He has recently started reading though - he has been learning to read at home since they don't teach reading at preschool. So... he'll be going to Kindergarten next year probably already reading fairly well. I'll definitely be checking into our options on how to best accommodate that.

Thanks for book recommendations and the support!

Hi there

I'm also relativetly new to this site, however have found it to be a great resource and sounding board. I agree with what grinity has to say but also wanted to add, at our school they run a gifted program (it is there but by no means is perfect, but better than nothing) anyway my point is that the few parents who have approached us thinking their children are gifted have eventually taken the plunge into getting them tested and have indeed been correct. Our peer group believed us but the bad behaviour we often expressed about our children at a young age was never experienced by other children, we used to think our peer group just kept that to themselves. Oh also need to add in the things we thought were normal for children of that age in hindsight were apparently NOT. It was our first child and I went back to work so not alot of parent get togethers were experieced for comparison.

Hi Ladybugmom,

I am so glad you started your own thread. I know it has been mentioned but look up Ruf and her 5 levels of giftedness. I have recently read the book b/c I too have a 26 month old that was blowing our minds and had we had the same issues of friends with small children in disbelief and us basically hiding or downplaying her accomplishments.

Just my opinion and please take it as that, but since Ruf is fresh on my mind ... I believe you have a gifted child, probably both are gifted. I would say since your DS is starting to read at 5 he is most likely level 1. As for your DD chris is right about how hard it would be trying to figure exactly what level she is at unless she is completely off the charts and even then she would be at least a level 3 but until tested not sure if she is 3,4 or 5. By what you described you DD sounds to be level 1 or 2. Again this is from a new participant who is just coming to terms with the giftedness and my own kiddo, so I could be way off in my assessment.

Either way, gifted or not ... I fully believe and following the lead of your child and allow them to learn through play.

Don't over think it. Whatever you are doing is going well. no need for labbels today. ignore products age suggestions unless for safety. follow their lead. don't make many decisions based on age - don't make all decisions based on intellect. We lost a lot of time having fun when we realized the kids had labbels and scary numbers. Read up on educational options - especially if there is any chance you will move - because a good school district and great gt aren't the same. But enjoy!

Welcome to the site.

I have had many of the same questions as you with my DD-almost-3. I didn't realize what she did was different until a friend of mine told me it was weird that a 20-month-old knew her colors. My DD sounds a lot like yours -- has to do everything by herself: getting dressed, putting toothpaste on the toothbrush, getting into the car, turning on/off the TV, starting the movie by herself, putting in a DVD, operating the computer, etc. The list goes on and on -- quite exhausting.

My DD really blossomed a lot between 2 and 3 (she'll be 3 in January). She started to read at 2.5, does simple adding and subtracting in her head, speaks in even more complex sentences and understands us more than I even think she does. Sound familiar???

It's nice to meet another mom of a toddler going through the same thing I am. I can't talk about this to most people which can be pretty isolating.

Hopefully we'll talk again!

Amber

HoosierMommy,

I have been pondering the colors comment a lot lately, but for different reasons. When are they suppose to know colors? In my circle of friends it is the opposite of what you described. In fact, if the toddlers don't know their colors by 2 people are shocked and have this look of there must be something wrong. All my friend's kids and mine knew their colors early so there is the assumption that that is normal. So reading your comment I am starting to realize that it isn't normal, so when should they understand colors?

I think a lot of kids don't know all their colors until they go to pre-school, so around 3 or 4. Both of mine knew them by 18 months so I didn't really realize it was a big deal until my oldest got to pre-school and they were teaching colors! I don't know when they should understand colors, but I do think that a lot of kids must learn them when they are older.

Good topic. What really is normal development for a 20 month old. Our DD did things that were clearly unusual.

I have a DS that is 20m now and has a very different set of skills from our DD. He crawled later around 8m and walked at 12m. He is still not really talking to the point where we can have a conversation with him at 20m.

He can count to 18 and knows his colors! He says two word phrases. His sis talks for him alot.

He did do some strange things as a baby like he would crawl up on his dresser and take out all the socks and put one sock in each drawer all over the house. Or he would do the same thing with wipes. He also used to take our pens apart and take all the springs. One day when he was around 15m I found a whole pile of pen springs in his room under the bed. My husband said he used to love springs when he was little too. I think our DD is probably gifted and I have heard siblings are usually close in that way.

Do you think this sounds gifted or just normal with a few quirks?

Have you checked out the "What to Expect" books? They gave me a very good sense about what was normal development.

They allow for a range of times when kids do stuff, so it's not panic-inducing. And unless GT denial has you in its icy grip so tightly that you think the book must just be wrong (Grinity, I'm looking right at you! ), it does a good job of showing you if your child is ahead of the pack for a wide variety of milestones.

LOL! Okay ... Grinity is not the only one that has looked at those books and said how nuts that seems and they must be truly cover the gamete (?) with that information to insure that parents do not freak out. I have had this exact conversation with my friends a few times.

I have read some books on milestones, and I got a developmental wheel from the doctor. Honestly I did not really believe they were true. I figured the people who write them put in alot of room there so parents will not get worried if a child is not doing something on time.

Really? I didn't think that the What to Expect books were thought of as accurate? Do you all think they are accurate in terms of how the majority of children develop?

It seems so weird to me that a 2 year old would not know his or her colours. Or that an 18 month old can not build towers with more than 3 blocks (or whatever they say). I honesly always thought of their milestones checklists as "way off"!

What do you all think of this book?

LOL! Yeah, that's called GT denial, ladies!

At least you're in good company! Many here thought there must be some mistake or that the books were trying to make people feel better.

Nope, it's just reality!

so do you all think the what to expect books are accurate?

I do, for normally developing kids.

Be aware that GT families tend to associate with other GT families. My kids and I were in a playgroup that led me to believe that my son was MG, most of the kids were ND, and one or two were a little delayed. It turned out that the majority of the kids were MG or HG, the ones I thought were behind are ND, and my son is HG+. Live and learn...

Your perspective may be skewed by who you spend time with. Mine sure was!

When my DD was 2 weeks old I looked at a milestone checklist and laughed out loud and decided at that point that the milestones were so over the top slow and clearly protecting those parents that had boarder line disabled children since my baby had mastered all the milestones sited for 1 and 2 month old as well as part of the 3 month milestones. So you can see why I drew my conclusion about milestones.

Yup. Been there, done that!

But it's not the milestones that are out of whack. It's our nutty, wonderful kids! LOL!

BTW, I read the milestones, saw that he surpassed pretty much all of them by months (and months for some things!), believed them to be accurate, and *still* thought DS7 was MG.

I can talk about GT denial because I looked at it in the mirror for years!

That is why I love this board and all of you. I lucked out finding 'gifted' and hearing the pearly gates open while my DD was just barely 2. So I can laugh now at how much I was in denial for the first 2 years. And I am sure my reaction is old news to most of you as I am sure you guys/girls came to realize that your child is in fact not part of the norm.

Has anyone here ever heard of the Denver II test? I haven't seen many references to it here.

It's often used to assess developmental delay, but if you look at the form in that link, you'll see that you can use it to make some guesstimates about meeting milestones early. It's also a nice reference for seeing typical ages for meeting developmental milestones.

My kids are/were way to the left on some of these items and smack in the middle or right-leaning on others.

Read carefully! The entry 6 words means "knows six words," not "combines six words."

(Caveat: people go through training to learn how to administer this test, so our conclusions will be rough at best.)

Val

Cool info/sheet, Val. I liked the last line:

In the 2nd year, half of normal children are non-compliant.

Thanks.

My DS8 started being non-compliant when he was an infant. He still is.

Val

Thanks Val! Very intersting chart. The "dress, no help" seems a bit unfair for my large headed kid (he's just not strong enough yet to get his head through the hole!) Maybe I should just get him some flashdance shirts.

LOL! What a feeling!

I am still rolling on the floor laughing about the What to Expect books (as well as most of the other development books.) DS was less than a year old when DH took the books away from me and not so gently told me to ignore them lol.
I(maybe showing some gifted traits of my own...) kept trying to make the skills listed more difficult so that DS would appear to be more in line with ND development. For example rolls over on own approx 3 months. I decided that since DS was rolling over at 6 weeks, they must mean roll over and over and over like going down a hill.
Another one: Knows colors. Well since he has known the main colors since he was about 8 months, they must mean colors like magenta, tan, and what colors make up orange, green, etc.
Well at DS's 9 month check up the Pediatrician asked if we had any concerns about DS's development, and I said that DS still wasn't rolling over. DH looked at me like I had a grown about 6 extra heads, since by that point DS was walking, and took away the books as soon as we got home!

Anyway, welcome to the board! It will be fun to hear how your daughter grows

Okay, I LOLd at this! Still chuckling...

Okay I posted to another topic and thought I would direct this question to our milestone discussion...

My DH and I were discussing milestones and the boards comments and he questioned something since we live in the 'best' school district and it appears that the majority of the students fit into the gifted side at that school district. Again we are on the outside looking in and when our DD goes to school we might find we inflated that by these facts: most all the students have tutoring sessions after school every week and almost all the students are in at least one honor's class. We also know that around 25% of the Kindergarten kids come to school knowing how to read.

So the question from my DH is this: Is the milestones realistic or perhaps you are finding that today's society is introducing more to their children at an earlier age? For instance, the colors, some one argued that they typically learn them at 3 b/c that is when they typically start preschool. Around here they start typically around 2. And the preschools tell you with no uncertain terms (even the church social ones) that they view their job as prep for Kindergarten since the kinder kids are required to know how to do powerpoint presentations by the time they finish K. I read the Ruf Kinder requirements in her appendix and did not see that referenced. So maybe the milestones are old research and new studies need to be done or we (my DH and I) have a warped sense of it all b/c of where we live?

Do you have a lot of GT kids in your area? The "best" school district doesn't necessarily equal lots of GT kids--our district is supposed to be the best in the surrounding areas at least, and GT kids are leaving it in droves! But if there are lots of GT kids in the area, then it could be that your perspective is skewed upward. Do you have a large university professor population or a research lab around? It might just be that you're used to GT families.

It is certainly possible to hothouse kids to meet milestones earlier. It's just not recommended! Who cares if a 2yo knows 1 color or 30, really? Does it matter? Are we worried that the child won't learn colors eventually? If the child isn't into it, then why push on something so silly? I think that's just done for the bragging rights--or at my most charitable, out of a weird fear that the child is already behind in some imaginary race; ick! I think it's ridiculous.

And I definitely don't think that all that hothousing means that the books should be changed. Why make it worse?

It does, however, make a pretty good case for keeping the milestone checklists a secret from parents... :p

Okay first of all I will answer your question about the area I live in: yes we have a large university professor population and research lab as well. In fact, we have the largest University in the country (The last time I checked) and a lot of those professors live with their families in our district.

As for the hothouse comment ... ???? Are you accusing me of hothousing? I am just amazed by the comment back to my post. I will set the record straight right now if in fact that was your approach. I have never hothoused my child. I am a huge believer in learning through play and our DD guides us not the other way around. Now if you are making assumptions that the result of our district is hothousing, it is possible sure but I do not believe the information I post was enough to conclude this assumption. As for the comments about the colors I referred to another persons post stating that 3 is around the age colors are focused on since most kids start preschool during that time. So drawing from that logic I stated preschool typically starts around 2 here. Again the need to jump to hothouse escapes me.

I was simply giving an argument my DH brought up that given the area we live in gives us a different view.

Katelyn's Mom, I'm pretty near certain that Kriston was not accusing you of hothousing. I think she was just talking about it in a hypothetical sense.

I think the topic came up because you mentioned things like the prevalence of after-school tutoring and preschools prepping kids to do powerpoint. Some people think of these kinds of things as hothousing.

As for your DH's question, I think the culture around us definitely affects our perceptions of our kids' abilities.

NO! I didn't mean that you were hothousing! Not at all. Sorry for the miscommunication!

I was responding to your statement about tutoring sessions being common in your area and to this:


This (and the powerpoint in K) said to me IMHO that you're looking at people who are working hard to hurry their kids along.

I just meant that if society is pushing kids along in high-pressure ways, then that doesn't mean that the milestones should be moved forward. If a parents spends all day grilling a kid on colors, then the child will probably learn colors early. But at what expense? There's lots of other things the child won't learn and the child will probably end up with a bad attitude about learning to boot.

I was just trying to answer your question with my take on it. Nothing inflammatory! Honest!

P.S. Thanks for helping me out there, Cathy.

No problema!

No prob Kriston ... I was just taken back and just the thought of anyone thinking I would hothouse sends chills up my spine.

For the powerpoint we were taken back when I was informed of this by the director of a church preschool who happens to be the previous director of this school district's preschool. It has been a topic of conversation among friends (that do not live in the district) and I for a while now. I guess I myself have not made that jump to hothouse but you have a point. So perhaps the argument would be that there probably isn't that many gifted kids, just pressured students that have to be tutored to keep up. It is just matter of fact around here that during the afternoon the Barnes and Nobles as well as a few other stores are taken over by tutors to work with groups of students.

But then I think about the Montessori schools and how toddlers typically are more advance through these programs. Would those be considered hothouse? I don't think so. (Just giving argument to both sides). A lot of these kids went to Montessori preschool to be prepped for the Kindergarten.

I don't think there's anything wrong with exposing kids to things or giving them opportunities to learn. My kids went to a private preschool which offered pullout reading, math, and Spanish programs for an extra fee. They were ability grouped four kids to a teacher. These were great for my kids who were bored in the regular classes. Was that hothousing? I'm sure some people would see it that way.

IMHO, child-led learning is never hothousing. Period. Just by definition, if the child wants to learn it, it's not hothousing.

Since Montessori is mostly child-led (assuming it is done correctly)--with just some minor pressure on the child to do some work of some sort--it isn't hothousing. The whole idea is to offer the child materials that are appealing and meet the child where s/he is at the time.

Often programs that let children take the lead wind up with more advanced students than average coming out the other end. I suspect that's why homeschooled kids tend to score quite well on standardized tests and such: they learn at their own pace, and often that pace is faster than the one that adults might set for them.

None of that is hothousing in any sense that I can see!

Kids having to know Powerpoint by age 6? Well, I'd say they're on shakier ground there! I've never heard of such a thing. I feel very confident in saying that is NOT the norm!

As for your specific geographic area (and I'm just talking completely out of my hat!), I suspect you have a higher-than-average population of GT kids around because of the university (and maybe other factors, too) combined with a higher-than-average pressure situation.

How much higher the pressure, I can't say. It may be just a tad. But yours doesn't sound like most of the pre-K stories I've heard. I have the impression that most places start honest-to-goodness pre-K programs in earnest at age 3, not age 2. (Our pre-K has a 1-half-day class for 2.5yos. My mom's pre-K started at age 3. I think most of the kids discussed on this forum--with some notable exceptions--started pre-K at 3 or later, assuming they're not starting early because of the HG+ thing.) And most places have pretty low expectations for kindergarten readiness. recognizing some letters, writing a name, following directions, etc.

So that combo of more GT people and more pre-K prep is almost certainly going to skew your area's population early on milestones, and you're going to think that the books are way too low. But you're in an isolated pocket, in effect missing a large segment of the population.

Remember that a 115 IQ is going to be 1 whole standard deviation above the mean, and your area may very well have an average IQ even higher than that if there are lots of GT families around. Add a bit of pre-K prep to the mix, and your GT 2yo starts to look quite average in comparison.

Calling it hothousing may have been presumptuous of me, but I will stand by the notion that what's going on in your area is higher-pressure than normal. It's common in NYC and parts of Chicago. Maybe also in other big cities with wealthy populations and private school slots to compete for? But from what I've seen and heard, I don't think it's standard practice in most of the rest of the country.

FWIW (not much!)

Also, just as a side note about my own take on the definition, I usually think of hothousing as being more about the parent's needs than the child's.

Giving foreign language lessons to a bored kid who then becomes more engaged isn't hothousing to me. That's solving an educational problem. Nor are afterschooling to keep a child challenged nor gap-filling to help a child make a smoother transition into a grade skip. That's just good parenting!

OTOH, forcing a child to take a foreign language he doesn't want so that the parent can use the child as some sort of status symbol, or out of some misguided attempt to not let the child "fall behind" (of what?) so that he can feel like a good parent? To me, those are hothousing situations.

I usually figure that if the kids are happy, they're almost certainly not hothoused. Anxious, stressed out kids who hate to learn but have to so Mom doesn't flip out are probably hothoused.

The world according to me... But that's my take, FWIW.

And here we are thinking it must be norm b/c it was so matter of fact that 6 year olds will need to be able to do a PP presentation. This is why I really do appreciate your opinion; it gives me a reality check!


People look at me like I am nuts b/c my DD 27 mths is not in preschool yet. I hear time and time again that their children were on the waiting list since birth and my poor child ... I never thought about wait lists until right before DD was 2 and now we have the opposite problem of her possibly not getting in b/c we might be too far down on the wait list.


I certainly do not live near NYC or Chicago but do have one of my BF that does and her child has been apart of that pressure that you describe. For clarification I live in Austin, TX and our dynamic appears different to even the larger cities in TX. Dallas and Houston rely on private schools much like NYC and Chicago b/c the public school districts are a joke. We have the opposite here. People rely on the zip code which makes housing prices soar for this district, which of course makes it impossible for economic diversity and further divides this area.

Just to let you know about another metro area - it's normal in the mpls/st paul area for preschool for 3 or 4 yos, but not younger. Also, I am shocked about the powerpoint presentation! I thought maybe it was an urban legend.

Yikes. We have relatives who lived in an austin suburb for awhile (round rock? red rock?), but we never heard stories like that about their schoolager. I suppose that's far enough out of the city.

Yes, those are all signs that you're in a specific sort of situation. Different from NYC, but similar in many ways from the sound of it. It's interesting to hear you describe it.

I'm in a middle- to upper-middle-class suburb of a major city in a midwestern state, but not an especially huge or wealthy city. I've never heard of a single person in our area being unable to get into a pre-K program. No one signs up until the Feb. before the school year they want in, and while it's possible that your first choice might fill up if you wait too long, there are always good programs with some openings if you're not too picky about date and time. The most popular programs are the non-academic church-based programs. But even these have openings right up until school starts pretty much every year. They tend to be child-led and very much about exploration, making friends and having fun in an educational manner.

There is a brochure that our school passes out from the state that details what constitutes K readiness, but it isn't hard to get to that level of readiness. The play-based half-day programs do just great with getting the kids there. K is also half-day, though more academically focused than pre-K. 1st grade is typically the "learn to read" year for us and so it's where many GT kids run into trouble, though I know in some places that happens in K.

Are there just not enough pre-K programs in your area, or is it about getting into the "right" program? I can't tell from your post what the tenor of the area is for you. A true shortage could be unfortunate for your DD. But if it's more a case of "get into this pre-K or all is lost!" then I'd be more likely to shrug it off. As long as a pre-K program is safe, clean, child-led, and has plenty of stuff to mess with, I'd bet dollars to donuts that she'll be fine.

Plenty of kids don't go to pre-K at all and they live long, happy, productive lives. Be reassured! All is not lost!

I wish it was that we are being picky and trying to get into the 'right' program. [sigh] The area we live in has so many churches and most of those churches have preschools. (In fact our area of town has a much higher ratio of churches then even downtown probably because of the views.) I AM limiting myself to church preschools (FYI) because I do not need a 5 day a week program and theoretically want preschool more for socialization for my child, but from talking to the directors of these programs it appears that the church preschools are more prep than anything else. (Referring all of you back to Powerpoint.) I have to admit that if I was willing to send my DD to daycare 5 days a week I could get her in no problem, but I am a stay at home mom and just do not see the need to put her in that and FYI MOST moms are stay at home in this area so this is why the church programs are the most popular. And since they start at 2 instead of 3 and everyone and their dog have been on the waiting list since conception!!!! we get to sit on 4 waiting lists (and I could have added ourselves to more but the ones I didn't submit to are the highly sought programs and I knew it was not worth our time. So we are on the list of the lower end programs and still fear that we won't get in. [sigh]

St Pauli,

It does sounds like an urban legend yet I am reciting it from a director of one of these preschools. You know, I am going to have to ask one of the moms in my DD dance class if any of their children HAD to do powerpoint. Most of them have their first child in Kindergarten so might not get the answer for a while, but one mom has a child that is in either 1st or 2nd grade. So I am going to ask and report back to you to see if the director was just on something or it is true! [Detective Mom on her way!]

The suburb is Round Rock which is north Austin and not far away just a different build up with socialeconomics. We live in West Austin on the lakes and in the hills. Round Rock has a lot of the typical suburb stuff such as track homes and lots of apartments and with that comes that ability for all walks of life to live there and therefore diversifying the school districts.

You know as I am typing this I wonder if I just come off as a pompous arse. We moved into this area last March for two reasons: My husband would not have that far to travel to work which was a concern due to gas prices and the other is the Austin school district is not that great. Round Rock is a better school district than Austin. I am still in a lack of culture shock. I am use to south Austin and the pockets of culture, my favorite being the Hispanic areas. I always said I would not want to live in North Austin b/c it looks too much like a little Dallas. So I was a southy forever and now we moved into this weird mix and are going to have to get on board with some of it I guess. But my concern is in this type of school environment how are they going to react to a HG+ kid. I predict that eyes will roll but I am hoping I am wrong. Time will tell.

You don't sound pompous at all to me - you sound like a concerned mom. I believe you about the pre-k competition, i was just sharing my shock because we had relatives who used to live nearby. I'm sorry you have to deal with this extra layer of grief.

A quick call to the school district can confirm the powerpoint. (of course we're all curious now!)

And you never know how a district will deal with HG kids until you get there. There have been positive stories too!

This is a little off the subject of PP presentations, which sounds almost incredulous for a K student to do, but I have a question for those of you out there.

My DD will be 3 in Jan. I am still in a bit of GT denial -- some days I think she's smart, other days I think she's ND. How unusual is it for her to be doing simple math in her head. She started at 2.5 subtracting the number of cars in the garage if my DH went to work. Now she's been adding 4+1 and 8+1 in her head which kind of blew me away. Is this just "kinda smart" or "wow smart"?

I get so used to the things that she does that it just doesn't seem that weird to me. Then I see my niece, same age as DD, and I think something is wrong with my DN. Anyone else do this??


I find it hard to believe that DD can be that smart when I'm having a horrible time getting her potty-trained. As I write this, she's running around in wet underwear and she does not care that it's wet and gross. But that's for another thread, I suppose.

Okay I made a few calls and here is what I found out. Powerpoint is not a 'requirement' at Kindergarten but IS at 3rd grade. At kindergarten level it is an axillary and the teachers do teach them powerpoint but is a step by step process and it is not required that they know it. So the director of the preschool was not completely accurate but she was right that powerpoint is used in kindergarten.

That is exactly what we have done and she is in a dance class once a week. I will probably get her into a swim class as well. As for the music schools they do not accept kids before 5 around here and music is an important element for us so we are going to have to wait for that one. As for art, I am an artist and we do a lot of activities around here for her that surpass what is offered so I think it would be a waste of money for us.

That sounds much more reasonable. Thinking of a typical kindergartner (which i had to learn about when I discovered that my child was not ND), very few of them know how to spell, and in our district, many are just learning their letters. I guess they could just copy and paste pictures into a presentation. Although basic powerpoint is certainly not rocket science, and it probably could be taught in k, i don't think it would hold the interest of the typical kindergartners.

I'm thinking some of the panic created by pre-k directors may come out of them not being esp. familiar with what powerpoint is anyway.

Sounds like you've got some good plans. FWIW, we have our HG+ DS4 in his second year of part-time preschool, and he complains about it every day he has to go. We're thinking one year was enough to get what we wanted out of it (socialization, learning to listen to a teacher), and we should have waited and kept him out of it last year. But it's hard to know when everyone else's kid is going to pre-k and it's your first kid - you just figure that's what you're supposed to do. We're thinking of pulling DS after christmas, and just going to zoo and science museum classes. DS also loves his gymnastics class.

HoosierMommy,

JMHO, but your DD is definitely normal ... yep normal in this gifted community!!! Of course that is not normal! You could ask your friends in your area if their soon to be 3 year olds are doing math in their heads. I suspect that you know the response and taking a wild guess here but probably another thing you hide from the others like I do.

As far as the potty-training it is one of the things cited as difficult for gifted children to accomplish and I am sure someone else can explain exactly why it is a difficulty but I remember reading that it is.

So in conclusion: simple math in her head before 3 = gifted

I second what K's Mom said: GT, and wet pants are nothing to worry much about at her age.

HoosierMommy - for comparison, my DS4, who is identified as HG+, started doing simple math (1+1=2 and numbers+1) at 3.5. And even having him identified as HG+, we still have many days when we wonder if that can possibly be right!


I did this when DS was littler. Our very good friend's baby, who was a year younger than our DS, would just sit still and happy in his bouncy seat for long periods of time. DS never sat still at the same age - if you left him in a bouncy seat for any length of time, he would scream! Of course, our friend's son is perfectly normal, but at the time I worried about him.

My DD never sat still either. She's always needed a lot of one-on-one attention and interaction -- even now.

Are GT kids really harder to potty train?? We've been at this for a week and a half and I feel like we're getting nowhere. I don't want to push her if she's not ready, but I don't want to give up if it's just going to take more time. After all, she's almost 3 and I can't help but think a 3-yr-old should be potty-trained. Not to mention the pressure from DM-I-L and my own DM. Sigh! I'm afraid if I go back to pull-ups, DD will think she won the battle. I don't know what to do. None of my tactics -- rewards like M&Ms, sticker charts to earn a small toy, hugs, singing, books -- have worked.

Any thoughts or advice on this?

I'm afraid I don't have much advice on the potty training, except to say that my DS got interested in it when he discovered that all his older cousins used the toilet, and so he then wanted to. He was pretty young. I don't know what sort of advice to give if your DD doesn't care about running around wet. Luckily, DS hates that so that helped. We also had the big thomas roundhouse that he really really wanted in a high place so he could see it, but could not reach it. He knew that once he was potty trained he would get it. (We went for the big guns!)

I don't know if GT kids are harder to potty train, but I do know that many of them are very strong-willed. Good luck!

Reading this makes me feel better about not getting in a preschool. My DD listen's well to the teacher in dance class, but is just starting to show wants to socialize with the other girls in class so I am excited about that. We do take her places. Her passion is pandas so we went to memphis zoo to see them. (And I just want to rave about that zoo. I have been to San Diego and the Memphis one is way more intimate and you are right on top of the pandas not kept at a distance. I highly recommend the memphis zoo.)

We also go to art museums which at this age is hard to tell how much she is getting out of it, but since it is an interest of mine she gets exposed. We also take her to live shows and plan to take her to the nutcracker this christmas.

I want to believe that preschool would be good for her but I am also concerned that she will be bored such as your son and FWIW I think you are right to pull him out after christmas b/c he probably has gotten everything he could from the situation of preschool.

I think (if I remember correctly) that the average potty-training age for girls is in the 33-36 month range. Boys average 3 months later.

So your daughter isn't necessarily ahead of the curve, but she's not behind either.

Beyond saying "don't push her or it becomes a power struggle" (duh!), I have no helpful tips: my DS7 went to Grandma's house for a summer visit for a week and came back trained, and DS4 taught himself to keep up ith his big brother. I always feel like such a sham!

I think I'm going to give the potty a rest for right now. It has definitely turned into a power struggle. And she is one strong-willed turd. I hate feeling like I'm supposed to meet some deadline with this stuff, like I'm not doing my job right if DD isn't trained by 3. She pooped and peed her pants again and said, "uh oh, I get a sad face," on her potty chart, but she doesn't care about it. She just says it like it's no big deal. One of the more frustrating things about this is that most of the potty training tips/books are for ND children, and I think potty-training a GT child is different than that. They obviously think differently, so ND tactics don't seem to be as effective. Grrrr.

Sorry, a little frustrated. Maybe once I let up, she'll take control on her own. Who knows -- I keep saying the child is crazy.

Can you send her to grandma's house? Or maybe my mom will take her! She's in IN, too.

It worked for me...

I'd send her anywhere if it meant she came back diaper-free!!! haha

Dottie, my DD has been incredibly stubborn since birth. My DM says I'm being paid back and then some. She gets a double dose from DH AND me -- we're hosed. Can't wait to see how stubborn DD6mo. turns out to be.

She does go to her grandma's twice a week when I work outside the home, but I think she's worse for her than for me. I don't think DMIL has had as much patience with it, even though at first she basically told me she could potty train her in a day. After seeing exactly how stubborn DD can be, DMIL changed her tune pretty fast. After all, how do you motivate a child to change her routine when she doesn't care about walking around in wet/soiled underwear and getting rewards for being dry/going on the potty?? As far as DD is concerned, she's got it made -- she pees, I change her. We do make her throw her diaper away, though, so she has to take some part of it. But that doesn't seem to do anything either.

DH said we need a child psychologist because DD is just crazy.

Maybe we (this board) can get a group discount for all our kids.

Seriously, I am curious what comes of your potty training issues with your DD since my DD is 27 months and going down that same slippery path. It doesn't bother her to have wet and soiled diapers on b/c changing them slow down or interfers with her activity of the moment. So with this logic getting her to go to the potty just takes even more time away. I think Dottie is right about potty training them earlier rather than latter b/c maybe they wouldn't be able to argue against it so well!

I agree with dottie, train them early, as soon as they show signs of readiness.

The first thing I would do is get a good potty training book and a peeing doll. Go over the material with her and tell her she is a big girl and is now done with diapers. At first take her every 15 to 20 minutes so you can catch her being succsesful. When she goes in the potty make a big deal about it. When she has a accident do not do anything. Do not react at all, just clean her up and change her clothes. Gradually increase the time between potty trips as she stays dry. Have any other care givers follow the same pattern you are doing at home.

Another thing that worked really well when my daughter was capable of staying dry was I quit taking a diaper bag out with us. If she had an accident we just went home(she was not in trouble thats just where her clothes were). This worked for her because she loves to be out and about. If our DD had to leave a play group or the park because she was wet it really motivated her to make it to the potty next time. Just make sure the places you go have potties and your DD knows where they are.

My DS4 was really hard to potty train, he was 3.5 when we finally got him out of diapers, but he still wears Good Nights at night because he can't stay dry. For us, it seemed that I had to really mean business before he trained and when he did it was simply because I didn't give him any other option. I would have just had to keep cleaning the carpet because I absolutely wasn't going to put him back in a diaper.

He simply refused to sit on the potty to begin with, so we did bribe him one time- he wanted a new Thomas the Train engine so we told him if he would pee on the potty 3x without an accident in between we would go right then to get it. We printed out a picture of the train he wanted and let him color it, then we hung it up near the potty where he could see it. We did that in the morning and that afternoon we went to the toy store because he had done what we asked.

Once we had him peeing on the potty we didn't do any more rewards. I literally walked him to the potty every 10 minutes, I joke that I nagged him into potty training but it's actually not far from the truth. It became easier for him to interrupt his play to potty than to be interrupted by me every 10 minutes and have to sit for a minimum of 5 minutes. Don't get me wrong, I had more than my fair share of him going on the floor in between my taking him, just out of defiance, but eventually I wore him down. I didn't yell or scream at him when he had an accident (which is *really* hard!), I had him sit on the potty while I cleaned it up and we moved on.

With my stubborn kid, I had to be ready to win the battle of wills. I had to be sick enough of it that I wouldn't back down no matter what. And I think he realized when I got to that point and didn't fight as much as he had previously.

DS6 just one day at 2.5 announced that he was going to use the potty and that was that. DD2 will only sit on the potty when no one is paying attention, she can undress herself, get up there, wipe and be out of the bathroom in no time. If I say so much as "good job", she will pee on the floor the next time, if I ignore it chances are good she'll go on the potty again later. It has to be her idea or she fights me, so for now I'm letting it go because she's working towards training.

I think I've had the gamut of potty trainers and I can honestly say that it's nothing that I've done or not done to cause it!

ETA: In re-reading, it seems like maybe I was a bit mean, but really, the child could go to the potty (as evidenced by the rapid earning of the train), he just *refused*. I wouldn't use this method for a kid who isn't completely willful and stubborn.

Skyward, I did try that method -- taking her to the potty at certain intervals. She can stay dry for at least an hour and a half, but I think she pees out of spite. That sounds weird or paranoid, I know, but just think of this. . . On the second day of training with underwear and no diaper, my DD had just been to the potty. We were playing in the family room, she looked at me with this little smirk and peed right down her leg. So she'll stay dry if she wants to, but if she's trying to prove a point, she'll pee herself every 15 minutes just to do it.

Making a big deal out of being dry and going on the potty has done nothing for her. We've danced, sang, clapped, gotten stickers, hugs, smiles, cheers, etc.

I think to her, it's a nuisance. Like master's DD, mine is extremely strong-willed and manipulative.

This is why I feel a little stuck and confused. Sigh!

I'm no help personally- DS was 26 months and wanted to go to the "big kid class" at preschool because they had a computer. He trained himself in two days. However- I did watch my good friend train her VERY stubborn 4 year old. Yes... 4 year old.

She told him "Today you will go on the potty, no more excuses." Then she did kind of a reverse time-out. When he was in the bathroom, she read stories, played games and talked to him. When out, she completely ignored him and left in in the living room with nothing to do. She set the timer for every 20 min to go in the bathroom and went in there on her own to play etc. It worked like a charm because that was where the excitement and attention was. It took one full day of this and everything was fine after!

Now, he was much older and very obviously ready. But if you have an older stubborn one, it might work for you!

To HoosierMommy,
So she is capable of staying dry! Well I still think you should try it. Find a potty book an explain it like she has never heard it before, and reintroduce the whole thing. Tell her your done with diapers and hold your ground. Set up her environment so it is way more convienient to go in the potty. It sounds like she knows what to do. When we re-explained it to DD she said I already know.

We would take DD out on purpose to my parents house who were in on the plan. I would give her opportunities to go and if she had an accident we had to go home and get new clothes, no more playing so sad. We lived 30 min away so we could not go back that day(a natural consequence)You can't fight with nature.

DD originally was potty trained at 16months which was initiated by her (wearing underware no accidents). Then around 2 after spending the week with Grandma who thought she was to young to be trained and I must be pressuring her, DD decided it was more convienent to go in her pants and would tell me,"Im busy and grandma says sometimes 2 year olds go in thier pants." We reintroduced everything just in case and after a few unexpected trips home she was all set.

On the other hand I have a 20m old DS who is not ready for the potty quite yet. And we really do love Grandma.

Wow, CAMom! That's a great idea, and it's a new one to me. (Honestly, I thought I'd heard 'em all, too!)

If I had a child to train, this is what I'd be trying! It makes such good sense.

Thanks for adding the above b/c I have to say potty training is hard enough but to not have the support of the extended family makes it ten times worse. Most grandparents would use the early potty training as bragging rights not attempting to undo it.

I like the idea of having to leave grandma's because she wet her pants. I might have to use that one -- thanks for the tip.

Today, we're giving the underwear a rest. Everyone involved was getting frustrated and it didn't help that DMIL has been telling me to back off -- she watches DD two times a week and doesn't exactly stick to the routine I've set up at home, much to my dismay. "I've raised 4 boys!" she says. I think it's fabulous she's raised 4 children, but she hasn't raised mine! DD is WAY different than her boys, even she admits. Can you tell I harbor some bad feelings about this?

I leave in about a week for a 5-day out-of-state trip for work, so I think I will start it back up in a couple of weeks. Give DD a chance to cool down with no pressure. And give my DH a break the week I'm gone!

Thanks for everyone's advice. If you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear them. This potty business is the pits!

My ds5 is still in nappies at night! He was potty trained at three and a half, I waited to get his agreement and we counted it down for several weeks. He was dry the first day.
I presented it to him as his idea.

One idea is to get training pants, very uncomfortable for them, but no mess for you! Also don't take them off straight away. They will feel very uncomfortable. Good luck!

I started this thread a few weeks ago and then had some computer problems and now it's 8 pages long - I had a lot of catching up to do!!

Thanks for the link to the Denver II test. I used it on dd2.3 this morning and it confirmed what I already knew but it was good to have a more objective tool (although the instructions were sketchy at best). I estimated her skill level at:
Personal-Social: 3 years
Fine Motor-Adaptive: 3 years
Language: 4.3 years
Gross Motor: average for her age

As for potty-training, if gifted kids train later, my dd5 is a genius!! He was 4.5 before he was trained. It was ridiculous.

HoosierMom - my dd2.3 is very strong-willed so I understand. We are doing O.K. with potty training but it is definitely a process for us. We did go to the store so she can see the big girl panties that I will buy for her when she can stay dry all the time. She often begs me for a Pull-up when she doesn't feel like staying dry. I had to put them out of reach. They are only for bedtime and some outings.

I think what I find so frustrating about this whole potty issue is that the regular things for ND kids do not work. So we're stuck trying to devise some type of master plan to work on her. What makes it more difficult is the fact she does not care about being in wet underwear -- she could run around in it all day and not say a word if I gave her the chance. How do you teach someone who doesn't care or want to learn something? As far as she's concerned, pull-ups are fine.
Maybe I'll go out and buy some underwear with some characters she cares about -- it hasn't worked for other things, but maybe it will work for this. Who knows.

I haven't read this whole thread so I may be repeating what someone else said. But really children typically know when they are ready to be trained. I found it worked to just lay low and let him decide. DS was "late" training, but the day he woke up and said he wanted to wear his big boy underwear, he never had an accident. I took a very non-chalant approach and left it up to him to decide. It could be that because you want her to train, she can sense your desperation and is actually enjoying making it hard for you.

I once heard a pediatrician say that a child naturally trains around 3 years; if you work hard at it, though, you can get them trained by 36 months LOL.

HoosierMommy - We turned a corner the past few days with dd2. She started going potty and staying dry. My point is that I don't think I had anything to do with it. She just decided to do it. I'm sure encouragement, bribes, other tactics help but if she didn't decide she would do it, nothing would have helped at this point. This is my reward for having ds train at 4.5, right? My C-section was less painful than that experience.

The only thing I can say with certainty about potty training is that kids are all different. What worked with DD was a complete failure with DS. Keep trying, change tactics if necessary

OK I'll confess to being such a clueless mother of one that I don't even get the joke

I got my approach from my mother who had 3 kids and used cloth diapers. I figured if she could wait until we were ready, i could wait for DS to be ready.

We did give up the underwear a few days ago because it was going absolutely no where. Not one single improvement after a week and a half, which isn't a real long time but long enough when you're changing wet/soiled underwear every hour or so. I think I'm going to try the laying low method for a bit and see if she takes the lead instead.

Asc, I liked the joke about training 3 vs 36 mos.

What about letting her go bare below the waist around the house? That worked for my DS. When he was wearing something (even underwear) he would "forget" until it was too late. Being bare was a reminder to use the potty.

I also put the training potty in our main living area (on linoleum!) so he wouldn't have to go all the way to the bathroom to use it. He seemed more willing to interrupt his play if he could still see his toys, etc.

I've had her run around in just underwear (I use a pull up over that to help with the mess)... I'm afraid to have her running around half-naked because of the mess. We're in the process of trying to sell our house right now and the thought of drying up pools of piddles is not exactly going to help matters. When I re-introduce the potty, I may put a potty chair close by -- thanks for the tip.

Well, I'm a mom of two, and I agree 100% with your philosophy, acs.

I pushed DS7 a bit back when he was 2yo to get him out of diapers before baby #2 came along, and it was a disaster. I tried hard not to make too much of potty training, but two perfectionistic, overly analytical minds--one of which was in its 2s!--did not make for a happy situation. I ended up sending him to grandma's house and he came back trained. Thank goodness! I don't know what we'd have done! I think he was simply never going to be able to do it for me. But he was ready, and grandma's house was neutral ground, so he was able to do it, right around his 3rd birthday. (Remember that...)

Learning from my mistakes, I backed way, WAY off for DS4...and he trained himself just before his 3rd birthday. Yup, same basic time!

More importantly, it was effortless. No trip to grandma's house was required. Now, DS4 is a very different kind of kid than DS7, so if the birth order had been reversed, I might have had the same problems with DS7 (then my second child) and the same ease with firstborn DS4. But I suspect that not worrying about it and not pushing helped.

DS4 was still in diapers after age 1 though. I can't argue with you there, Dottie!

I read a book before potty-training ds6 and it was great -- but I can't remember what it was called! Argh!

We had a fairly long-term, low-pressure approach with ds that worked well. First, we took his potty chair out into the living room. We lived in a pretty small apartment, and that was where we were most of the day, so the potty was easily accessible. And we just left it sitting out for a while before we even mentioned it, so he could get used to the idea and the potty wasn't a "strange" thing. And once he got pretty good about using it regularly, we moved it into the bathroom. He kept it in his room for a long time, in case of middle-of-the-night emergencies. I loved the traveling potty! It stayed at home, though, and we used Pull-Ups for any outing that seemed iffy.

We did the "bare below the waist" -- made it much easier to get to the potty quickly.

We also got two fabulous books about potty traing -- the classic "Once Upon a Potty" and another one called "The Potty Book for Boys." Both very matter of fact, both acknowledging successes and failures. He loved them and requested/read them long after he was potty-trained. In fact, I think "The Potty Book for Boys" was one of his first "actually reading" books!

And we found his currency. He'd never had candy until the few weeks before we introduced potty training, and he got one M&M for pee-pees and two for poop. He was hooked on those things ... but he gradually forgot to ask, and we gradually forgot to remind him, and he was weaned off the reward.

(An anecdote, one of the incidents that told us we were in trouble with him: Ds6 was about 2.5yo, and in the early potty-training stages. After a success, his father held out a few M&Ms and said, "Would you like the blue M&M or the red M&M?" "Hmmm ... hmmm ... I know!," ds said. "How 'bout more *two* M&Ms?" Little punk.)

Selling your house and potty training? Do those 2 things even go together? Wow! I'm really pulling for you now! I just planned on getting new carpet when we were done (we needed it anyway).

Gratified, Your stories cracked me up. I do think that ones who think hard about stuff can be the hardest to work with.

Here's my story of how my mother tried to train me. I was 3+ and my grandmother (who had dementia and was incontinent) lived with us. My mother explained pleasantly to me one morning that "your getting to be a big girl now and big girls use the potty." I replied instantly that "Grandma's a big girl and she doesn't use the potty." End of conversation. My mother knew she had lost. About 4 months later, I spontaneously decided on my own that it was time.

I think we just have different ideas of what is irritating. Since DS didn't complain when he was wet, I typically only changed him once in the morning and once at night (or when I smelled #2). I can't believe I just confessed that publically . You'd be amazed at how much those modern diapers can hold . I didn't mean to be that negligent, we just had more intersting things to do with our day! And he was not prone to rashes or anything.

Once he was trained, we always had to plan ahead. We travel a lot and it always seemed like he needed to go potty just when the flight attendant said, "Please return to your seats and prepare for landing." or when we were stuck in traffic or on a subway train. And when he needed to go, he needed to go right then. It was very frustrating. So from my perspective diapers were way easier than the alternative!

Your poor mother, acs!

DS4 really was pretty much trained around 2, and he just wanted a diaper because he didn't want to tear himself away from whatever he was playing with. The last straw was when I noticed he was pooping in his diaper, and I said, c'mon let's go get you cleaned up, and he said "wait, I just have to squish it in first." I told him then and there "no more diapers for you!" And that was that.

Oh, and when DS first wanted to be trained, we went to pick out some undies at the Disney store. I was showing him Bruce Lightyear etc, and he said, "no i want cinderella!" I tried to convince him to get boy underwear, but he said "mom, i would never pee on the princesses." So of course we had to get those! (daddy wasn't too happy about that...)

Ha! Ds6 was in love with his pink Dora Pull-Ups. Whatever... Great teenage blackmail pictures! :-D

My mom had 8 of us, so she wanted us out of diapers ASAP. In her generation I think it was more common to train early anyway. She would have been 92 this year. So my philosphy followed my moms. DS was potty trained the summer before he turned 2 in September. DD was much different. One day DD was running around, 'air-drying', and a fresh diaper was lying on the couch. She suddenly stopped, ran over to the couch, put the diaper between her legs and pee'd on it. She was 16 months old. I thought, 'hunh, might as well get the potty chair out'. I put it out, explained it was hers, and she was trained. Within a month she never even had an accident again. Her own 2nd daughter had some real potty issues though. The best advice I could give her was, "How many kindergartners go to school in diapers? Just back off on that one and she'll start using the potty eventually." And she did, and is in K, completely potty trained.

Different cultures have very different ideas though. I had a co-worker from India. She's older than I. Babies were trained by a few months old there. It might be more accurate to say the moms were trained to signals the baby gave, but the babies used a potty.

Yeah, I am sure that it true. For parents who are carrying their babies around all day (and especially in houses with dirt floors or where mothers are working in the fields with babies in tow) it would be quite easy to pick up on your child's signals and get them in the right position.

I, on the other hand, was always on the go and too out of touch to get any of his signals. I just let the diaper do the parenting work for me. Still DS has really turned out to be a pretty good kid despite my negligence.

I hope you're just joking and didn't take my comments as a condemnation of not potty breaking a child early, especially the info from my Indian friend. It was just meant to point out the differences in cultures. Those differences haven't seemed to make a critical difference in our children, so we mothers need to cut ourselves some slack about potty training by a certain age. Like I told my daughter, how many kindergartners still wear diapers?

OGM Don't worry! I totally understood what you were saying. I have several anthropologist friends who work in very rural places where cloth is expensive and diapers non-existant. Our culture is different, more mobile, more parent child separation and most important, more carpets!

I was making a joke at my own expense. Really, I have never been an attentive parent. Whenever we were at a party and kids started crying or we heard one fall, I was usually the last mother the get up. Typically, if I was enjoying my conversation, I had completely forgetten that I even had a kid. It was only after everyone I was talking to ran to the kids room that I remembered I was even a parent and then I reluctantly got up to check on DS. It was sort of a running joke among my friends So when I was reminded of the more way other cultures parent, it just brought all those early years back. I knew even in Peru I probably would have been the mom who set her kid under a tree to play or pee while I planted corn and then forgot to pick him up at the end of the day. LOL!

Yes, I'd have been a lot more likely to train early if I had to wash out every poopy diaper by hand, or worse, wash my own poop-covered clothes because kids in my culture didn't even wear diapers. If you only had two or three outfits (as some cultures did/do), that could be a serious problem for you.

Disposables allow us a lot of freedom, and mean that we don't have to live and die by our kids' "signals." With the exception of my concern that diapers are filling the landfills and never decaying, I'm perfectly okay with the arrangement!

P.S. acs: I call my theory of parenting "benign neglect," so I'm totally with you there! No one would ever call me a helicopter parent, in spite of the homeschooling. Sooooo not my style!

hehehe... We have posts on our farm that were made from recycling plastics, diapers included!

You go, girl!

We used cloth diapers with child #1, but with all the washing and the use of the dryer in the winter, I was pretty well convinced that cloth really wasn't a much more "green" option.

Recycling the disposables sounds like the best of all possible worlds. (As long as I'm not the one doing the recycling. Ewww!)

Jumping in here randomly. i believe this is called Elimination Communication in our culture/society, not information that is need but i was interested in this idea for a while.

These potty stories are cracking me up. I've been trying something a little different with DDalmost3. When I need to go to the bathroom, I'll say to DD, "Oh... I need to go poo -- where do I need to go???" I look and act real concerned like the fact I need to poo caught me off guard and that I really need DD's help. She'll say, "In the potty!" "Thank you! That's right!" and I'll run to the bathroom. I'm trying to reinforce the fact that she KNOWS where to go and what to do to see if this helps matters when I re-introduce the underwear. She's changed her dialogue about pooping and going to the potty now, so maybe she's thinking about it differently.
It's hard to tell with DD. DH and I have recently decided that she's a lot smarter than we give her credit for, so we're not exactly sure what we're dealing with here. Of course, this just makes us more confused than we already are.

In regards to the gender bending cinderella underwear... DD LOVES the Lightning McQueen pull-ups way more than the girly princess ones. Makes me laugh.

I used to live nextdoor to some former missionaries.

They spent 5 years in Indonesia.

When they first moved in nextdoor, their DD1 was potty trained.

Where they worked in Irian Jaya the natives just held the kid out at arms length and let them do their thing.

By 3 mos their DD was trained just as well as a native kid.

Right before they came back, they trained her to use a toilet.

There is a movement here in the US called Elimination Communication - Natural Infant Hygiene. http://www.natural-wisdom.com

In a nutshell, parents choose to not use diapers at all. Instead they use bonding as the key to understand their baby's signs of when they need to go and hold them over a toilet when they need to relieve themselves.

I'm all for it, assuming you have the time to devote to it. Personally, I'd rather wait longer for the child to be trained and have to pay less attention to my child's every glance, breath and whimper, but I can see the appeal to people who go in for that sort of thing.

To each her own...

To me if I have to be the one figuring out when they have to go potty then I guess I would be training myself. Also with three very young kids, two in diapers I would be spending a lot of time in the potty.

On the other hand I think it is nice to bond with your kids and if this helps you bond thats great.

I do not know if I read the same book, but a major draw back I saw in the book I read, was what to do if your out in public. Like at the mall or a restaurant? I think the servers might have a problem with my naked poopy baby.

If you try it. Let me know how it is working. I really am interested to see how the concept could work in todays culture.

There is an essay called "When we were insane." about sensory knowledge and response versus structure in one's life. I can't find it anywhere online. Its about the tradeoff between working in natural environment and relying on cues versus the highly structured environment of today where we rely on programmed activities. Some people cannot get the hang of being programmed and are seen as being insane, but when placed in the wild, are able to fend for themselves vs the modern programmed person who would die very quickly in the wild. Just thinking aloud.

Hello -

If anyone is interested, I can tell you offline how we did a modified EC from about the time my DS could sit up.

Much like homeschooling/afterschooling, etc., EC does not have to be an all or nothing thing.

I know it EC is not for everyone but it worked pretty well for us...

EW

Austin sound like an interesting article. I have pondered that before. I will look for the article. Thanks for thinking out loud. I really enjoy hearing different peoples perspectives on things.