My first post, but been a lurker for a while. First of all, thanks to everyone who contributes to this wonderful community. Personally, I have immensely benefited through this forum and educated myself on various topics related to gifted parenting.

Past/Background:

I have been thinking of getting my DS10 tested by a psychologist for last 2 years. But, we have been putting it off primarily due to steep expenses involved. Also, it's been a blessing that my son's teachers had been very supportive in advocating for enrichment at school. Two+ years ago, he was tested by his gifted teacher using CoGAT (sp?) when he was in 2nd grade. Then he was recommended for grade acceleration skipping 3rd. Since then, we have moved to a new better school district recently and he is now the youngest child in his 5th grade class.

Today:

So, I finally bit the bullet and shelled out $$ and got my DS10 tested for both IQ and achievement tests. My primary purpose was to see if he would qualify for DYS. Unfortunately, his IQ scores fell short, but his achievement test results did meet DYS qualification criteria. While it's not the end of the world if he doesn't get into DYS, I would like to do the best we can with the application. At this point, I realize that I don't have a choice but take the portfolio route, but I wanted to seek assistance on a few questions I have:

1. What weight does DYS give to achievement tests versus IQ tests? Are they treated equally or differently?
2. Will it generally help if I get more than 2 reference letters from son's teachers?
3. DS loves computers and programming. He developed Android apps when he was 7/8. What's the best way to portray such examples in the portfolio?
4. Any other creative suggestions to strengthen a case for DYS?

Please offer any advice you can give!!

For your reference, below are recent test results:

- WISC-IV (IQ test):

Scale - Sum of scaled scores, Comp score, Percentile

Verbal Comprehension (VCI) - 49, 138, 99%
Perceptual Reasoning (PRI) - 38, 117, 87%
Working Memory (WMI) - 27, 120, 91%
Processing Speed (PSI) - 26, 118, 88%
Full Scale (FSIQ) - 140, 130, 98%

- WIAT-III (Achievement test):

Subtest - Raw score - Standard score - Percentile

Reading Comprehension - 40* - 125 - 95%
Math Problem Solving - 59 - 144 - 99.8%
Word Reading - 69 - 134 - 99%
Pseudoword Decoding - 50 - 139 - 99.5%
Numerical Operations - 46 - 160 - >99.9%
Spelling - 59 - 159 - >99.9%

Composite reading - 273 - 145 - 99.9%
Composite Math - 304 - 154 - >99.9%

Also, DS10's EXPLORE tests from Feb 2013 qualify for DYS.

English - 21 (missed 4 on rhetorical) 87%
Reading - 25 100%
Math - 18 83%
Science - 14 11%
Composite - 20 92%

According to DYS site, Composite, Reading and Math scores qualify for 5th grade.

Thank you in advance for reading my post!!

I don't really have answers to your questions, but I wanted to respond to give your post a bump. Just based on my browsing of recent posts, it looks as though it is somewhat harder to get in with achievement scores and a portfolio, but perhaps the fact that you have two qualifying achievement scores will work in your favor.

Good luck!

Take my opinion with a grain of salt in that we've never applied to DYS even though I do have one child who had qualifying WISC-IV scores 5+ yrs ago. My general guess, though, would be that she probably wouldn't get in with the scores you have b/c none of the IQ pieces qualify. I believe that the portfolio option is meant to be used when either IQ or achievement is not available not when one or the other doesn't hit their minimum score.

I say this, b/c in looking at old threads, there are quite a few people whose kids were close or just barely there who didn't get in b/c one or the other just wasn't high enough. I came across this fairly recent thread in searching the archives:

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/150361/2.html

I don't know if Davidson takes age of the IQ test into consideration, but looking at the recent thread on the Flynn Effect would also make me wonder if they might consider IQ scores that don't hit their cut point to be more of a disqualifier on an older test. Again, just thinking "out loud," so I'm not sure if they'd take that into consideration or not.

Do you generally have a feel that these IQ scores are too low given the child you know? Do you know any DYS kids for comparison sake? I will say that my one child who is not quite at DYS level does still stand out like a sore thumb when compared to age peers.

Gabalyn - Thank you for responding with your thoughts. Also, thank you for sharing your insights from previous posts from other members on this topic.

My DD was accepted into DYS with achievement scores (WIAT-II) and a portfolio, even though her WISC-IV scores fell short. We did submit reference letters from her teachers, along with school testing scores and work samples. DD had a full grade skip and a double grade skip in Math. (Helpful Hint: We also requested test scores from our entire school district under the Open Records Act. We actually found that DD was performing better than 1 in 1,000 students that were a year or two older than she was!)

If the EXPLORE results are really strong, you should submit those too.

Bottom line, it is possible to qualify with achievement scores. Good luck!

I have a question regarding the EXPLORE and DYS. If EXPLORE could not persuade the principal and school district for grade skip, why adding DYS on top of it would work?

Cricket2 - Thank you so much for sharing your honest and candid feedback. I see your point that DYS may actually look at all sub-parts of the IQ test - which don't meet DYS criteria as you have identified below. Regarding your comment on son's IQ scores, I thought of the possibility that he could've had a bad day, etc. But, that only seems like wishful thinking as I ponder on it more. Unfortunately, this is the first IQ test he ever took and he doesn't have any DYS level peers (or at least I have not explored fully). We were mentally prepared for such an outcome before we signed up for the tests.

We haven't had our follow up appointment with the psychologist to discuss a course of plan not for DYS particularly but for what we can do from here on to meet our son's enrichment needs.

Thanks again for your kind support.

I would think so. It is also heavily dependent on psychologist's skill.


If your kid had EXPLORE test, then you may find kids at your son's level in those talent search centers such as NUMATS, TIP, or any interest group such math club, writers club, etc.

TX G Mom - Wow, thanks for sharing your experience. This does give us a glimmer of hope Although, I am not raising our hopes too high.

His Explore scores are as follows:

English - 21 (missed 4 on rhetorical) 87%
Reading - 25 100%
Math - 18 83%
Science - 14 11%
Composite - 20 92%

According to DYS site, Composite, Reading and Math scores qualify.

You are the first person here that I recall posting that but it is good to know that there is another side to the story. I totally understand if you don't want to be more specific here, but were your dd's WISC scores very far off? It sounds like the achievement piece was very strong but I wonder how far off one can be on IQ and have another piece offset it.

The OP's IQ scores might also be offset if, like you say, the Explore scores were well beyond the minimum DYS numbers and/or if some unusual scatter within the WISC subtests depressed the subtest scores. I was less optimistic b/c the posted achievement scores weren't well beyond the minimum and the IQ scores aren't just off by a point or two. I could, of course, be wrong though and please do know that, either way, it sounds like you've got a child whose needs won't easily be met in a standard classroom.

I don't fully understand what is tested in those IQ tests. I never took one ever in my life But, I know my son could easily solve 10 types of rubik's cubes in a matter of minutes. I don't even know how he does it. He does have an analytic mind and is very inquisitive. He has been consistently performing well in Reading and Math. But, I realize that IQ tests try to measure different type of skills.

If I were to have my son re-take the IQ test, are there any restrictions on how long he has to wait? Can I have him test with a different psychologist? Just asking these questions to explore what my options are at this point. Although, I detest the thought of spending $$ again on testing.

Sorry I crossed posted with that last post of mine. So, at 10 is he a 4th grader or a 5th grader and were the WJ achievement scores grade normed or age normed? I ask b/c, in looking @ the DYS site, I see that reading, English, and composite make the DYS cut for a 4th grader but he misses by just one point on English for a 5th grader. If he's a 4th grader and the scores were age normed on the WJ, especially depending on which version of the WJ it is, I'd think that they would be more impressive and more likely to overcome the IQ scores not quite making it.

Oops, sorry I missed in your OP that he is grade skipped and a 5th grader. They might be willing to consider his age and look at how his scores compare to a child in the grade he "should" be in. Also, I'd now say that the WJ scores might hold more weight if they are *grade* normed rather than age normed.

Cricket2 - Yes, of course. I greatly appreciate your candid assessment. I am pretty sure DYS admissions committee will be pretty ruthless in assessing whether an application makes the cut or not. Regardless, we are very pleased with the test results and they do confirm that he needs additional enrichment as you suggested.

Cricket2 - You are right about Reading. I verified DYS criteria again and DS's scores seem to qualify for Math (18), Reading (25) and Composite (20). However, he does so barely on mark with the exception of Reading.

As far as I can tell from NUMATS score report, it does appear that they are age adjusted scores.

Thanks again for all your analysis!!

Edit - Okay, I figured out how to edit my posts rather than posting multiple responses to you, Cricket You make a very good point that the scores are age-adjusted, but who knows what DYS considers for their assessments. We may have a chance if they would consider grade-adjusted scores.

Explore Test on your report from ACT will be based off of 8th grade norms. The NUMATS report will be a grade based percentile.

I think Cricket2 was asking about the WIAT scores being age or grade normed.
Those can make a big jump in either direction depending on the norming. My DD had scores for WJ age and graded normed. She had some subtest jump up as many as 10 points on her standard score because she is particularly young for her grade.

Davidson may look more critically at applications with a portfolio and achievement scores using the more favorable scoring. If a child is particularly young or old for the grade the scores will definitely change based on the norming.

Do you know if the WIAT was age or grade normed? If he is in 5th and young for his grade the norming will change the numbers.

Thanks Jtooit. I will check with the psychologist to confirm if the scores are grade-normed or age-normed.

Cricket2 - DD’s WIAT-II scores were strong for Math and Writing at age 8, but lower in Reading.

Reading 130
Mathematics 160
Written Language 160

Her WISC-IV scores were lower at age 8 (134).

Interesting enough, her WISC-IV scores at age 6 varied slightly. (Wouldn’t it be nice if they could take the highest scores from each test to calculate her FSIQ?)

I did have to do some legwork to find data to submit with the portfolio. The school district test scores were a bit tricky to obtain, but I was able to find information to support the 99.9% DYS was looking for. DD also had a double grade skip in Math, and her teacher was teaching math at a grade above, so I submitted math samples that were +3 grades ahead.

It has been an interesting journey.

TX G Mom, thanks for sharing, that's interesting. Did you include the WISC scores in your application?

W'sMama - Yes, I did submit WISC scores in the DYS application. However, as a result, I received a kickback because GAI was not calculated in her original scoring submitted. So, even if you are not applying based on WISC scores, you will still need to provide the GAI. (I sent in the requested GAI information and DD was accepted the following month.)