So, at our local library, we found an event on their calendar called "Math is fun!" designed for 2nd-4th grade. DS4, our resident math-head (who is probably mid 3rd grade math, with ability in higher grades as well, for some of the topics) got very excited, and so we signed him up, writing a little note at the bottom mentioning that he was 4 but that he is advanced and the material would not be a problem for him.

Needless to say, we got an email back from the library, saying that the teacher running the club was "certain" that the material would not be appropriate, regardless of how advanced he was. (Interesting that she knows that without meeting him, no?) and here are some things that are 'age-appropriate'. So I called the library and spoke to the woman who emailed me, and tried to explain the situation. She sort of sympathized, but didn't seem to exactly believe me, and compared DS to "a lot of other kids around, that come looking for this sort of thing" (where are these kids? if there are so many highly gifted kids around that I don't know about, please show me them! I want playdates!) she also said that she didn't want to make the teacher uncomfortable, worried about maturity level etc - to which I replied that he should be fine, but even if he is not, and starts bouncing off the walls/being a distraction, whatever, we would just leave, and spend the rest of the time in the main part of the library. I wouldn't keep him in there if it wasn't working or if he was being a menace (who would?) So SHE said she would email the teacher and tell her this, and see what her concerns were, and then get back to me.

Frankly, I am not optimistic, just based on the initial response. I also don't know how a 4 year in the class would make someone 'uncomfortable'. I am not about to let him ruin the class...I don't know what she thinks would happen. But either way, I am just upset at the reaction, and I do not relish the thought of having to tell DS that we aren't able to go to the math club anymore because he is 'too young', regardless of ability. It just doesn't seem fair.

I'm not sure if there is anything else I can do, besides what I have already done, so I think this is mostly just to express my distaste of the whole situation.

I'm sure many of you have been in this boat before...but if you haven't, it sucks.

We had the same experience recently. It was for a summer camp for 3rd-5th graders and my son is a 2nd grader. Oh my gosh. And my kid is old for his grade. Same reasons that were cited for you were cited for us as well. I actually succeed at getting him in but the lady was a pain and pretty offensive. We'll see if anyone's head explodes. Next time, I am lying about age/grade as necessary. Seriously. Many places do not require proof of age or grade ... it's really not worth the hassle.

I have never been in this boat before as a parent. However,once upon a time I was a young 4-year-old first grader in class with 6 and 1/2 to 7 year-old children. I highly suspect the issue has nothing to do with math achievement although the librarian and the teacher are likely skeptical of your claims as well.
I suspect the real issue has to do with the perceived maturity of your 4-year-old as well as your required presence. I seriously doubt that the parents of the 2nd to 4th graders will be sitting with their children as they have been in schools for years. Perhaps this teacher would feel more comfortable without a parent hanging around and/or thinks the children will be more focused without a parent hanging around.
Perhaps you can let them know that your child is mature enough not to need you to hang around. Although that may not work either if they don't want to be responsible for such a young child.

FWIW, from my perspective your situation is slightly different than Irena's situation putting a 2nd grader into a 3rd+ class. I would have been frustrated with that - we've btdt that with our ds at that age with a similar age difference, and it worked out a-ok.

In this situation, you're looking at sending a 4 year old who most likely hasn't been attending full-day regular school yet into a group that is geared for 2nd+ graders who have a few years of schooling behind them + are several years older. Does that mean they know more about math or are as highly capable in math ability? Not at all! But it does mean they are most likely operating on a different maturity level re social situations, which is a large part of what the person leading the group is going to be dealing with. I agree with Quantum:


I'll also add something else in - it's possible that while you're looking at this activity as an enrichment activity for a child who is highly capable and loves math, the real purpose of it might be to encourage children who *aren't* wildly in love with math or as highly capable to see themselves as capable and to see math as fun. I have one of those kids in my family, alongside an EG kiddo who absorbs math just by breathing. My math-y EG kiddo didn't particularly have all that much fun at activities like this.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Polarbear, can you help with some advice on my "DRA reading help" thread? Under "Parenting and Advocacy" - thanks!

Irena I pm'd you. Not that there was anything worthwhile in the pm, but it's there

polar

BTDT - library story time groups, science classes, lego classes.. you name it and we've had these issues.

I agree that they worry more about the social aspect of it all - they are concerned about keeping kids in their seats long enough to focus on the activities.

And I agree with Portia - it's one thing for your child to enjoy the class, but rarely will the older kids appreciate, much less enjoy, being shown up by a child so much younger than they are.

Should this be your concern? not really - and if it were homeschooled/unschooled kids it would not even be an issue.

But it will be an issue if they do any group work - for your son.

Aiden started cubs a few months early, and now nearly 8 months in is STILL getting flack from some of the kids (and very subtly some parents) about his age, and his ability levels. There are always comments about his "Grade" level too - every single week my kid has to justify why he is working across grades 3, 4 and 5 but is one of the youngest there. Esp when he corrects reading/spelling/maths by older kids.

It's not fair but it is what happens.

Perhaps you could offer to host a similar program for mixed age high ability mathy kids?

Marnie, you know I feel for you and your DS but I don't think I would let DD3 join a math group for 2nd to 4th graders because DD has made older children and their parents very uncomfortable in the past and one of these incidents involved math. We were sitting on a bench right next to a second grader boy who didn't understand his math homework. His mom was getting visibly upset and was starting to yell at him for not being able to do his homework. Sensing that the boy was in trouble, DD3 (I think she was almost 3 at the time) gave him an answer and tried to explain the concept to him. I whispered to DD that his mother was helping him so everything is okay and she could go back to doing her own activity. Needless to say, his mom got even more upset with her son and her voice got even louder. Tears started rolling down on his cheeks and we left. I probably should have said something but I couldn't think of anything appropriate on the spot.

In a structured group setting with a teacher to control the flow, it probably won't be as horrible but I am getting the look from other parents during library story time as DD tends to answers all the vocabulary questions with razor-sharp precision. This sometimes happens after older children give random answers so I can understand if other parents feel DD's presence is not good for their child's confidence. It's a sticky situation. I don't think DD is trying to outshine anyone but I suspect the positive feedback is starting to get to her head.

We're considering summer music camp for DD and it's a lot easier for music because some children have started when they're 3 like DD and it's perfectly understandable for them to be ahead of older children who recently started on that instrument. When it comes to academics though, both children and parents can be quite sensitive.

This is one of the reasons why I'm starting to feel GT education is preferable to acceleration.

I do understand where everyone is coming from...especially after the initial resentment and mother hen instinct has worn off. My hackles are out when this kind of thing arises, and I do kind of still think, (for a free library event, at least) it's a little...I don't know, discriminating? (for lack of a better word). At least, it feels that way to us, though I understand that the social aspect might be the more pressing issue (even though I was told originally that the material would be the issue).

Sigh. I guess we will see what happens. Either way, I think that both points of view have validity - and honestly, it's a little unfair either way the chips fall. It's just so hard dealing with this kind of asynchrony WITHOUT having to butt heads over the little stuff...like free library classes...and makes me anxious about dealing with the stuff that DOES matter, like school, etc.

@Madoosa, that's not a bad idea, starting my own library event...I'm not sure how it works, if I would be allowed, or if anyone would be interested in actually coming to it...but it's certainly worth investigating.

I'll let you know how it pans out. Thanks, as always, for your support/perspective.

Good luck - for a free library event surely it shouldn't be a big deal? I've signed up DD to slightly more formal science classes where the teacher allowed her in but expressed doubts and requested I stay too (parents could stay or not as they wished) in case she needed help.
She didn't She completed the whole project completely by herself, first in the class - she was 7 in a class for 9-12 year olds. Teacher was impressed so hopefully we'll get in without question next time! (although honestly not sure how she'd feel about DD joining the 12-16 year old classes, which would actually be challenging for her, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about that either)
For casual things at the library I haven't even bothered specifying her age. Maybe bald-faced lie to them and say you made a mistake, he's really 10

Lol. Pretty short 10 year old I was thinking about the lying about age thing...but he's so...little. he's average or a maybe a little bit small for his age, and the difference between 4 and even 7 is just...seemingly enormous. though it would be really funny if I could just straight face it. "oh yes, he's 7. absolutely. can't you tell??" I wonder what they would say...?

Just wait, my shortie is 14 and is offended if he is offered a child haircut or if they don't say anything I have to because he would be horrified if we didn't pay the amount he was supposed to.

Marnie, I am excited to see what you come up with that will work for your child and for others in the same situation!

I had such a similar experience this week that I was also fuming! I hope it's okay to hi-jack your topic here...

Nathan (5) LOVES soccer. he is crazy about it. At the kiddies soccer franchise thing he and Dylan attend, he needs to move up to the senior class, but we have a scheduling conflict and they only offer the one class a week. He stayed in the "little" class for about 4 months but says he simply cannot anymore so we took him along to try out a full soccer club. Aiden decided last minute to try it too (he is not a soccer fan - too strop self-preservation instincts). So they put both boys in to the under 8 group for that session. It's a big group - about 40 kids so they split them and rotate them through the activities.

Nathan was a firecracker! (another dad's word not mine). He was so energetic and so good. I heard several comments about how he is "very small for 7" and "how impressively skilled he is for such a small kid". He was literally running rings around these older, bigger boys.

At the end of the practice session (a full hour), the coach asked the boys how they enjoyed it etc. Aiden said that he "needed time to assess his feelings of enjoyment before making a long-term commitment". Nathan was still bouncing up and down and asked when he could come again.

The coach then said that Nathan could join in the under 6 group (pee-wees) over on the other side for their practice next week. Nathan hid his disappointment so well (until we got home) and I was just furious. This man knew his age from the get go, so why get the child's hopes up?

The only reason I can fathom is that they want a "star" for the rising kids side coming up... But that also doesn't sit right with me - he loves working hard and I like that he is good but not the best kwim?

So yeah definitely a bit of social pressure being felt ITO age and responses from other parents more than anything else.

I wouldn't start lying-- the child may out himself sooner or later, and teaching him that lying is the way to get what you want isn't so great.

This business is hardest around sports, I think. Other activities seem a little more flexible (here). Also, if you run the team, you may be able to have more leeway...

Update: no go. (as I expected) The teacher said it was not only the material, but because there was going to be group work/interaction that she didn't think a 4 year old could keep up with. While I understand, I am also disappointed that he wasn't even given the opportunity to TRY. He is never given that chance, which is a shame. I would love to see if he actual COULD keep up, and be (for once) in a situation with intellectual peers. It really does make me sad that something that is generally pretty easy for other kids, like finding friends that are similar to you/have similiar interests, intellectual profiles, etc, is just so very difficult for DS (and I mean, he is super social and will play/interact with anyone...but on THEIR level. He'll TRY and get other kids to do the things he likes, but they usually can't, so he has to leave that stuff for me and DH, and his teachers at school, essentially.)

The teacher also that her 5 year old is also very advanced and she knows he would have trouble in this kind of social situation but maybe she would make a class for younger kids in the future. Which in itself is all good stuff, and would be really nice IF the material was actually challenging enough. Then again, if her 5 year old was actually quite advanced, wouldn't she would have understood better where I was coming from, and not been so closed-off to the idea?? (Is it also weird that, as soon as I heard advanced 5 year old, I thought, PLAY DATE?) ...even as annoyed as I am at the whole situation, because of the issues illustrated above, I would LOVE to find another mathy young kid for DS to play with. I don't know if I'm alone in this quandary, but it seems to me that a lot of parents of young gifties are always on the lookout for other gifties that would hopefully spark a genuine friendship with their DC, on THEIR level.)

Sigh. I wish it weren't so hard sometimes.

and I'll have to ask the library about forming my own group...

and Madoosa, I actually think the sports stuff will be easier than the cognitive, personally. People seem to accept natural athletic giftedness FAR more than intellectual. It's not even that weird to see parents "hot-housing" their little baseball star, making them practicing all the time, training even when they don't want to, etc...because they want to have them reach their 'full potential' or 'get a scholarship', when they are older. It all seems very competitive. So the age thing may not be an issue at all as your little ones grow up. It's actually kind of funny (sad) how that kind of behavior is acceptable in sports (and even music to an extent), but in academics, even when you DON'T push your kid, but they are naturally advanced, you get the hairy eyeball from parents, and comments about how you have to 'stop teaching them', because they won't 'fit in', etc. etc. Kind of a weird double standard, no?

Socially, though, at this age the older kids may well shut your child out on grounds of size/appearance/voice/apparent maturity, regardless of intellectual capabilities. You can't assume they'll be generous and inclusive, and that's also hard to force. We have had mixed experiences in this regard. The girls tend to baby-talk (our physically small) DS and he hates it. Intellect is simply not the whole story with activities like this.

We do choose multi-age camps and activities where DS is on the younger end of their allowable age range...

Oh Marnie - I am sorry for the negative feedback you got

The corollary is that you also can't assume the opposite without a trial.

Soapbox alert! (The remainder of this post is not directed at DeeDee...)

Tone at the top counts for a lot in group dynamics, particularly involving children. Exclusion and rejection need not be inevitable for young gifted children, the disabled, those belonging to minorities, etc if leaders of activities truly believe in, model, and enforce an attitude of equality among participants.

Frankly, I see our society paying these values of inclusion and tolerance lip service. When we don't like how someone fits in our group on the basis of a subset of arbitrary characteristics, like age, we create a separate group for them so they can be "separate but equal". But what message does that send to the child, and to the participants allowed in the group? It says that we don't need to yield to others. The ego is paramount. It says subtly that your value as a person is constrained by how others perceive and value you, because you are only desirable to the group if and only if your participation requires zero concessions (even financially costless social ones) on their part.

So, Marnie, I guess I join you with this gutteral "uuugh!" of exasperation!

I totally agree, aquinas. The more I think about it, the more frustrated I get. I genuinely wonder whether a free public library event can actually (legally?) forbid someone from joining...though at this point, pushing the issue would be nothing short of silly, as the teacher has clearly expressed the fact that she doesn't want DS there, and so I can only image how she would respond to him in the class. But if the situation were reversed, say with a child that had cognitive delays wanting to do a class that was content appropriate, yet 'too young' for him age-wise...would they really turn him away? I simply can't imagine they would. So how is this any different?

Honestly, I am nothing short of disenchanted with the library's response to the situation - regardless of whether or not it would have worked. It would have been so easy to leave, if it there were any issues. So what is the harm?? That's what I don't understand.

I think I am going to tell DS that the class was cancelled, since I don't want him to become troubled about the circumstances surrounding his not being allowed to go.

I think you went to Dr Louis, right?

What Ach tests were administered? Depending on what grade they showed you may be able to convince the library to le him attend. Sure, the test only shows GE as the score that 50% of kids at that grade would score if given the same test but if the GE was way higher than the level of the target audience it might still carry sufficient weight.

Also Polarbear raised an excellent point - this may be aimed at showing ' mathophobes' that Maths can be fun more than preaching to the 'mathophile' choir. In that case I think that your son's enjoyment of the activity may be considerably diluted.

madeinuk, we have only done the first session, the second one is at the end of the month...but I believe the Ach test is the WIAT? We haven't gotten any scores yet, naturally, but when we do, that might be a useful thing to use.

And yes, if it was for 'mathphobes', that would have definitely diluted DS's enjoyment, so in theory, it might not have been the right place for him anyway.

Eh well, such is life. Onward and upward.

I did inquire about the process of facilitating our own event at the library - we'll see how that pans out.

Sorry it didn't work out, but in a few years this will be a distant memory. Is this your eldest/only? I know I worried over stuff like this when my kids were younger, then it didn't seem so aggravating when they were a bit older.

How they treat a younger kid is a legitimate concern. My 4th grader DD9 went to a different school this year, different school bus - kids on the bus gave her a bad time at first for sitting near the back - kids thought she was a 1st grader. Middle kid had similar experiences, but is now normal height at 16.

There may also be some legitimate legal concerns. Day care centers have to maintain certain student teacher ratios based on age. While this may not be the case at the library, and while I can't imagine how you might get hurt at a math class, if he got hurt and the insurance company stepped in, it could be a problem if he was significantly younger than the advertised class age.

As for some folks commenting on sports and age, I don't know how many parents I see trying to get kids on 18U teams when they are 14 for the college showcase exposure. In most cases, these kids are very good, but not DI stuff. I personally have seen kids lose out on opportunities because they want to be on the older team. It is different in sports than in academics. In sports, you want to be one of the best on the team. That gets you playing time so you can be seen and so you can improve in game situations. Being average on an older team means holding down the bench. Sorry for being off topic, but just wanted to note the difference.

I agree on the theory - it's just not valid for us... Nathan just loves soccer and it seems the harder the class is the happier he is. I don't think he cares at age 5 about who sees him doing what - he just wants to have fun and a bit of a challenge is his idea of fun.

Soccer in South Africa is not really a big sport at the senior/top levels - that would be Rugby and I am anti my kids playing that for a variety of reasons. I just wanna see my kid have fun kwim? not be the one always waiting for the rest of the group to get it...

totally agreed. It's just the reality though . But it so should be! The discrimination of anyone different is annoying. And even though here our entire history is steeped in discrimination, everyone does everything to ensure "equality" . I know we here have had many conversations about equal does not always mean fair, but in SA you dare not even try suggest that someone needs different.

Extreme example: If you follow athletics closely you will have heard of Oscar Pistorius. He is currently on trial here for murder of his girlfriend. There is a HUGE thing to ensure that there is no additional "sympathy" because he is disabled, and that there is no additional "treatment" because he is something of a celebrity. It doesn't really work because annoyingly it seems to be all everyone talks about. On all matters education there has been a HUGE drive to "standardise books, levels of education etc. To the national standards detriment IMO with our required matriculation pass rate in exams being an embarrassing 30%.

Anyway I hope my point is coming through clearly - The only way we will facilitate change is for us - all of us - to advocate all the time for anyone different; showing the world what true equality really is. The big catch is that we don't want our kids to hurry up and wait for the world to take notice.

It's a sucky place to be stuck.

Madoosa, at age 5 that is fine. Sounds like it is a class rather than travel soccer (which I hope is not available at 6U, though I have heard of travel baseball & softball in CA at 6U).

The problem is when you get into travel or club sports. From a legal perspective, there is no issue in the US in many travel sports with a younger kid being on an older team. While these kids may think it will be more challenging, there is no challenge when you sit on the bench.

Hope the OP finds an appropriate math challenge for her son. Unfortunately, that will be many years in the future in school - there is another thread about that.

We never attempted to put our DSwhen4 into a class like this, but if we had, any fears they had about his possible disruptiveness would have been a major underestimate.

One reason we like homeschooling is that our kids can be themselves without worrying about other people's expectations.

I understand our frustration Marnie but I would save my passion and frustration for other situations, and I'd also try to look at this from a different angle than simply young-gifted-child can't participate due to age. If this was happening at school and impacting your child's education, that would be something worth fighting for, and depending on the circumstances, possibly something you could make a legal argument against.

I also think that leading a group activity yourself is a great idea - not just for making the activity available for your child and for others, but also because it will give you the experience of planning and leading an activity for a group under similar circumstances. I've led quite a few group activities for children, and as the person who's doing the planning, you'll put thought into who you are trying to reach, what you want to do, how to execute the plan etc. I think it might help you see this particular experience through the eyes of the person who's leading it - while it may not make sense to you that she excludes children who are under 7, there is likely a reason she's planned the age range that she has and even though you don't agree with it, I'd try to respect that it most likely wasn't a thoughtless decision on her part but a purposeful decision. I suppose that can be construed as essentially me saying I'd give this person slack that I wouldn't give the school district.


It would have been easy for you to leave, but the other kids might be distracted by it, it might have taken time away from the work that the instructor had planned, it might distract the instructor's attention, it might take away the enjoyment and enthusiasm the instructor had and was conveying to the other kids who were attending. I think it's important to remember, this is a one-time event that is short in duration - which means it may not seem significant to you in terms of giving your ds a chance to attend, but it also means it's a one-time event with short-duration for the person who is leading it (and who is likely putting a lot of thought and planning into it ahead of time). She also doesn't know you and doesn't know that you'd "just leave", and she doesn't know that her idea of when that "just leave" moment has occurred is in sync with your feeling of when that "just leave" moment occurs. Those are all things that may be weighing into her decision.


Another approach is to let ds know that he wasn't old enough for the age range that the class was slated for, that you thought he would enjoy it anyway so you asked if he could attend, and that you were told no. Keep it simple - let him know you advocated for him. Advocacy doesn't always work, and you don't need to let him know you're upset about it, but it's ok to let him know that there was an age range on the class and he didn't get in because of it, but that you as his parent did ask. He's going to appreciate over the years all the times you'll stand up for him and advocate for him

Best wishes,

polarbear

polarbear, I do truly appreciate your trying to give me alternative perspective, and I would never have had any intention pushing this, especially on the legal end (it is far from worth it, plus, why force an issue with someone who clearly doesn't want you there? At this point, I wouldn't WANT DS in a class with this particular facilitator.) I was merely expressing my disbelieve at the situation.

I did tell the facilitator that we would leave if it was a problem, and while I do understand that we could have 'distracted the other kids' or 'taken away from a short period of time'...I don't know, I just think that that isn't a good enough reason. I mean, if one of the 7 years olds acts up (say, because his mom decided it was good for him to be there, but he really didn't want to, and then threw a fit about it) how would that really be any different? Because a 4 year is more likely to act out? No matter how much slack I cut the facilitator...it still itches like discrimination, you know? I don't mean it to sound dramatic, honestly...and maybe because this is our first REAL experience with this kind of roadblock, I am more sensitive. I am trying to let it go and use it as a learning experience. Part of the problem is that I don't like what this sort of thing means for the future...if something this insignificant is an issue...what about the big stuff? But we aren't harboring any crazy vendettas or anything. It just...rankles, that's all.

It is discrimination (distinguishing), but it is not UNJUST discrimination. They're not singling out your child. They're designing a program at a particular age group. I agree with Polar's observations. And I think it's quite important to recognize that no matter how gifted a child is, that does not always mean they will fit in well with older peers. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't, and it is not unreasonable for the people who are running programs to make their best guess on what will work rather than letting parents do so.

I don't think you should take this as a bad omen for the future. As your child grows, he will be eligible for a lot more things. It will become clearer to adults what he's like, because he will be more able to show them. Things that are impossible to negotiate for in elementary school become possible in middle. It goes along, and it changes as it goes.

Yes, been in that boat ...
Last summer my son (4) wanted to participate in the summer reading club at the library. No class, no meeting other kids, no maturity issue, no making people "uncomfortable". When I asked how to sign him up the woman I spoke to said "Well, he is not in school yet, so you can't. You can fill out the Mommy/Daddy Reads To Me sheets and enter that club. But the whole point is about the kids being proud of their reading accomplishments. I told her that since he will be the one reading I'd like him to be part of the reading club, not the read-to-me club. She then told me that 4year-old don't typically read and that he can't enter if he's not in K yet. Fortunately the other librarian had overheard and swooped in. "Of course he can participate. How great that he is reading already!" Thank goodness.
I am wishing you luck! Keep us posted.

Same boat? It sounds completely different to me.

We have definitely seen that there is a lack of adults who understand or want to work with highly gifted children.

One woman teacher of gifted in our town even felt comfortable enough saying in a public, recorded meeting in front of the school board that she enjoyed her time with the children at the other end of the IQ spectrum more.

I have done an unofficial survey; the mother usually handles, monitors supervises everything. Then, the moms of the other children will label us 'helicopter' parents. We invite them to read, even briefly about families with highly gifted kids, so that there might be increased understanding.

We have found that the adults do not want to be bothered with the very intelligent children. That is as far as we have gotten. To say more, can be perceived as negative and we are really trying hard to understand and appreciate and be grateful, even though we can envision a much better system, with teachers who really have a passion for teaching. When you find a truly gifted teacher, I would imagine they would love being around the truly gifted kids.

So, to an extent, we had to skip all of the usual activities that are really geared for the norm, and customize our child's activities to suit our child. It is a lot of work and you will feel as though you are working on at least one Ph.D.

Maybe I misread? I thought the OP was talking about not being allowed to join things due to age? Yes, we were lucky that the one librarian allowed him to attend but the general attitude at the library is that it is just not done, that only the age matters and not the fit of the program. I have found this to be the case in 95% of the things we would like to join. This was the one time we were lucky. So I wanted to give the OP some hope that sometimes a second person looks at the issue and might be on your side.
Sorry if I misread.

The (key) difference between these two situations is the other children. I'm glad that the other librarian let your son participate.

Good grief, can we not empathize and share here without hitting all the key points exactly? FWIW it doesn't sound "completely different" to me. The annoyance and disappointment of having your child excluded from a fun activity due to their age. Yes sometimes it's because they mightn't mix with the older kids. Sometimes it might just be because you come across a stickler for arbitrary rules. Same annoying result

But, sorry Stef, you can't post your harmless story and cheery 'good luck' in this thread without criticism as it's only 75% similar to the OP's. Rules are rules I'm afraid

It's the difference between some and none.

I'll expand on my logic here. In the OP Marnie's case, there were arguably some legitimate reason's to exclude a 4 year old (as many posters pointed out), whereas in contrast, in stefgray's case, there were unarguably no legitimate reason's to exclude a 4 year old.

Can I post a serious question? What happens if a 7 year old with pretty severe ADHD registers for the math session? Age appropriate but cannot focus, bouncing off the walls. Totally disruptive. How does that shake out any differently then DS4 IF he doesn't cooperate?

As for DS4 being treated badly by the other kids...isn't that the point of the facilitator? To stave off bullying? (because, really, isn't that what it is?) As for making the other kids feel inferior...I mean, it's unfortunate, but what am I supposed to do? I can't help that my son isn't in the center of the bell curve...and I'm not going to go through life constantly ducking my head and apologizing for it.

I'm not sure exactly sure why people are getting so up in arms about this...I am always a bit surprised when that happens on this forum. You would think that parents who have experienced constantly trying to advocate for their DCs and hitting roadblocks while trying to find a balance between age and socio/emotional levels, wouldn't be quite so quick to advocate for exclusion. Yes, stefgray's case is different, agreed, but I appreciated the sympathy and the optimism, nonetheless. Can't we commiserate without judgement?

...I hesitated submitting this post at all but I just don't like seeing anyone jumped on for trying to be kind. I truly do understand all the points of view (and appreciate them!) that have been put forth, even the ones agreeing with the facilitator's decision to deny my son entrance into this class. The fact that I don't particularly agree might simply be because we are talking about my child. But I think the point I (and several others) were trying to make is simply that it's hard when our children are put in this situation: whether it's sports, or school or a silly free library class. No two situations are the same, and maybe some ARE more important than others, but the sting is real, regardless.

And, for the record, if they had 'Math is Fun' classes that exposed preschoolers to upper level math, we would be there in a heartbeat...but let's be realistic here, who is really going to hold that class? (Maybe me?? Maybe I will be able to lure all the mathy little kids out of hiding!) But therein lies the issue. What do I do? Put him in classes that don't interest him cognitively, but are age-appropriate? Or risk 'potential' social clashes but at least the content is appropriate and engaging?

From your point of view it is understandable that you want your son inculded and engaged and are willing to do everything to make this happen. But I do feel you are looking at it from only your perspective. There will be kids there that are twice your child's age. Maybe some of them have been signed up because they are not very good at math and they want this to be an uplifting experience for them? Now from another child's point of view, if there is a kid half your age and knows math better than you, how do you think that will make them feel? I think at your son's age you will be able to find so many resources for math for him, there is really very little benefit for him to be in that class.

est1215, I literally said that I understood (and appreciated!) everyones' perspective in my previous post. The fact that I have my own opinions, regardless, doesn't mean that I haven't looked from all perspectives. I have.

In response to your comment about how an older child would feel if a younger child knew math better than them... what if an 8 year old math whiz signs up, as well as an 8 year old who is awful at math? Would that be acceptable? Would the fact that at least the math whiz was the same age as the one who is not good at math make the difference? So it's not adding insult to injury? I just don't understand the logic. And would this even apply anywhere else other than math? In art, in music? Would a parent really not put their child in an advanced art class (based on ability) because they were worried that some of the older kids in the class would be upset that they weren't as good at the younger one? Or because art is subjective, is it different?

I am not sure you understand where I am coming from. Yes, there are lots of resources for him, online, books, games...all things that he can do on his own (which he does), or with adults (which he does). But there is virtually nothing that allows him to interact with children who are learning/interested things on his level. And that was the reason we were looking forward to this. So, from my perspective, I think there was a large benefit for him to be in that class.

All that being said, please keep in mind that we aren't pursuing this, aren't fighting to get him into the class, or anything. We registered, were told no, contacted them to explain the situation further, and were still told no. And that was the end of it. I get the feeling that some people think we are waging war on our library, which is hardly the case. I wrote the original post to vent my frustration, and get some advice from those who had blazed this trail before. For some reason, it seems like this thread is blowing up needlessly, which only ignites frustration, rather than tempering it, thus subverting my original intention.

Oh yes, I agree with that! Thanks!

I totally understand. We've had many of those situations as well but I chose to share one where really it was apples and oranges. Sorry guys. Didn't mean to sound like I was making light of the dilemma both teachers and parents find themselves in. Sorry.

I think your child is still very young and you will learn to pick your battles. Free (?) library class called Math for FUN intended for kids twice older than yours should not be a source of intense frustration. Unfortunately life with a gifted child will be FULL of roadblocks, sadness, loneliness and not just for a child but for the parent as well. You don't have to go through it "ducking your head and apologizing" but you do have to be cautious and considerate. Feeling inferior sucks, especially for kids. And yes, it does make a difference if the child is half the age and showing off to others, it does add insult to injury. If an age group is set, you can always ask for an exception but not feel entitled to it because your child is gifted. And sadly it will happen everywhere even in art and music.

Your point was that he would get the social interaction in this class. Trust me, most (if not all) 2nd or 3rd graders would never accept a 4-year old as their equal and interact with him in that manner.

Best of luck!

Sorry, but this is just getting ridiculous. Children should restrict their participation in activities and learning at the appropriate level because they might make someone else feel inferior?! This is advocating cutting down tall poppies.

It's one thing if advanced children are ostracizing or putting down others who don't perform at the same level as them, but all we're talking about is allowing children to try to perform at their level in an informal setting and--ideally-- make some friends while doing so!

I hate to break it to the posters who have stated this fear, but life is full of people who are better than we are at various tasks. This is how it should be, because no one person is infinitely resourced! Learning to appreciate a diversity of abilities and interests is part of living in a civilized society. An advanced child in any field needs to learn to hone his abilities with grace and modesty, but that by no means should mean denial of self to avoid hypothetically making others feel inferior.

With respect, this is patronizing. Did you see the part where Marnie stated she isn't pressing the issue? She clearly has perspective, she just wants to commiserate with people who have shared her frustrations.

I did not mean to patronize. Just speaking from experience. The frustration I had when my child was four seem quite ridiculous now:)

Very well said! I truly agree with everything you said. But in my oppinion this would apply for children who are a bit older. We are simply discussing appropriate response to a 4 year old being denied a library class with set age restrictions that far exceed the age of the child.

I took it quite differently. I see Marnie accepting the library's decision as a fait accompli, but lamenting that the world is not ideal, as we all do to varying degrees depending on our temperaments (and OEs, in my case!)

In this situation, her son is the net loser, and she is anticipating the future ways in which his differences will create challenges and exclude him. It's not so much about the experience as a singularity, so much as what it represents for her family in the future and how she feels about the way the world will throw roadblocks her way.

Let's not forget that most parents here are gifted, and we carry the attendant OEs and emotional baggage of our own experiences with the world as gifted "outsiders". (Many of us--myself included--are blessed/cursed with a preternatural hunger for justice, and part of that is feeling deeply.) While giftedness brings many advantages, it also carries tremendous challenges for families, as you well know, and an important service this forum provides--at least for me--is a venue to be heard without judgement. Feelings are feelings, and I don't think "appropriate" factors into this, especially when an individual's actions are rational.

This forum needs to be a safe place for us to express our genuine feelings without fear of reprisal because, let's face it, we can't just vent our spleen to the neighbours.

Agreed!

What some who post here (or elsewhere) may not realize, is that in doing so you ARE venting your spleen to your neighbors. This is a public forum. Posts show up in web searches, often even after being edited/removed. Some sign up to post, many sign up to lurk. Many more may read posts without signing up. Not all who read are in support of the gifted. The information gained by reading posts is a tool, and like any tool, it may be used to build or destroy.

When posting, some may say it is wise not to operate under the illusion of a closed community, united in support of the gifted.