Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Twins and schooling

Thank you everyone! For everyone who mentioned twins at different schools, does anyone know at what age the split was made. I can definitely see a separation happening (and it being a good thing) if I muster up the courage to make it happen. I'm still waiting on DS2 scores. Its making me nervous, as DS1 scores were made known to me almost the day of.

Ok, some interesting info on twin 2 and I don't have a full report yet. FSIQ 124, no issues with PS or WM. Notable is math reasoning 98% and phonics 19%, but doing great in school and loves to read. OG tutor was suggested vs full neuropsych eval. Does anyone have experience with that?

So if I understand your post correctly, you're considering advocating to move your DYS twin (twin #1) to better meet his academic needs in math. Twin #2 tests with a lower FSIQ and potential dyslexia (not sure if there was a diagnosis or not, of if there is perhaps another issue that might be impacting phonics score.

This is my advice, fwiw - first ask for subtest scores on the WISC for twin #2, and also ask for a meeting with the psych to discuss what their findings are, and how they are coming up with the recommendation for OG. Having parented a child with issues with reading, I'd consider that priority #1 above advocating for your DYS child, but really you will (I'm guessing) be able to (and need to) advocate for both. The issue with the potential LD impacting reading (or simply being significantly behind grade level) - is that you need to remediate appropriately asap or your child can lose ground in vocabulary as well as not having access to higher level cognitive challenges in academics. Reading ability is *so* key, not just in reading books and developing vocabulary, but it can impact simple things such as answering a math problem incorrectly because it wasn't read correctly.

Re needing an OG tutor vs neuropsych - my experience has been that the neuropsych is helpful in discerning what the root cause is when there are discrepancies in achievement testing potentially caused by LDs or other reasons. They aren't the "end result" in testing (typically) though, because usually what you come out of a neuropsych with is recommendations for further follow-up testing or therapies if a challenge is found. With my dyslexic dd, we didn't have a full suite of neuropsych testing but instead ability vs achievement testing and a few initial dyslexia screens (one with the tester, one or two at school).. and ultimately a thorough suite of reading-related testing by a reading/dyslexia specialist) (this testing included oral reading, phonics, and just about every reading skill under the sun). That was the testing that was ultimately most helpful because we came out of it with a very clear idea of where her challenge was and what needed to be done (in terms of reading tutoring programs). It sounds like you have enough of a clue that the issue your ds has is associated with reading, so that would most likely be the approach I'd take - however, if you're not clear that it's a reading challenge, a neuropsych eval which didn't require repeating achievement and ability testing might be useful.

I'm also not sure which of your twins you are referring to when you say they are happy in school - my guess is it's twin #2? and that twin #1 wants more in the way of academic challenge? If that's the case, I wouldn't put twin #2 aside to focus on twin #1s needs at the moment - that discrepancy in phonics score is huge. High ability students who are challenged with reading can often compensate really well in the early elementary grades, but they are still losing ground over where they *can* be if they receive remediation and appropriate accommodations. It's also possible that twin #2 is every bit as high in ability level as twin #1 (i.e., DYS).. but they aren't testing at DYS level because of the impact of a reading disability. It's also possible twin #2 might thrive with math enrichment just as twin #1 has (or some other type of academic enrichment), but dealing with reading struggles is preventing him from having the energy and motivation that allow twin #1 to follow academic passions.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Total inexpert opinion here - phonics at 19th but loves to read suggests to me that somewhere there is a seriously high number(s) compensating for some critical missing skills. Reading and writing demands on your DS will be escalating rapidly over the next few years, and if he's doing it all the hard way, at some point it could start to get really, really hard.

So yes, definitely don't delay O-G. But you also want to be confident you have as clear and full a picture as possible of your DS's strengths and weaknesses both. If any of the numbers so far don't make sense with what you see, or don't address your questions, it's worthwhile digging deeper into diagnosis with the neuropsych, so that those who then help with interventions really know what they are dealing with. And as polarbear says, each bit is just one more step in a long-term process, not (alas) "the answer".

Some helpful background:

Last year DS1 had a very rough year socially and with almost no academic gain. Laziness and frustration set in quickly. We had tears off the bus daily for a month or so. This prompted us to seek help. We almost switched schools over the summer. Ive been advocating for him for almost a year now, but I don't even really know if it will be enough. On his WJ3 everything was about 70-80% across the board. I feel like he does what he is asked at school and no more. But mostly, i need to intervene for this kid and fast bc at home he makes up for his slow day and he needs more than I can give. And he's not my only child. The other 2 need just as much.

DS2 made major gains with reading last year and had an amazing year. He's super social, very funny, and was so happy.

While considering a school switch, we applied both boys to a private school which gave the WIAT3. That was the first we noticed the big discrepancy for twin 2. Regardless of the phonics issue, twin 2 actually does really well ( so far) in school.

I'm currently advocating for both, but the school has already intervened for DS2 a good bit without my prompting.

BTW-Besides dyslexia, what other issues can lower the phonics score?

Thank you!

No experience with the twins, but certainly experience with 2 kids on this. Both of mine read way above grade level, but in 4th grade were identified to have very low phonics skills, far out of sync with what would be expected based on other reading skills. For my son, the phonics skills were so weak, no one's really sure how it is he can read.

Math reasoning vs phonics isn't the right comparison here. What are the other reading scores and the VIQ scores?

As polarbear suggested, OG instructors have a really useful host of tests to identify and target the exact gaps in phonics skills, more than we've gotten from neuropsych evaluations. This monitoring can also be done very frequently, so we get quarterly reports monitoring how the gaps are being plugged. You will know fairly quickly if OG is the right approach.

Hi Geofizz,

I don't have a full report yet and probably won't until after Thanksgiving. Here's all I have DS2:

FSIQ 124
Verbal Comprehension 98%
PS 73%
Broad reading 59%
B Written 49%
B math 49%
math problem solving 98%
phonetic decoding 19%
orthographic processing 59%
rapid naming 60%

Geofizz,

Can I ask how many hours a week you have OG? and if that would ever be done in school?
And btw I'm not sure what VIQ is? These numbers are all still very new to me.

Thank you!

Sorry, by VIQ I just meant the verbal index score of the IQ test: What you have listed as Verbal Comprehension.

Whether or not you can get services at school for a child reading on or above grade level is a matter of local policy. We've lucked out in that regard (with the help of ground work laid by a group of families who filed a complaint against our district). The local policy here is to qualify a kid for intervention services if the difference between verbal comprehension index (~130 in your son's case) and the phonics score (~87 in your son's case) is greater than 23 points regardless of how high the verbal comprehension score is if it's having a negative effect on the child's academic or emotional growth. {Edit: even the broad reading of 59th percentile is a score of ~103, which would would also "qualify" the kid at our school. Our district, though, is very unusual with their aggressive approach to qualifying kids with dyslexia.}

My DD qualified for 200 minutes a week of OG, which started on the first day of 5th grade for her. She was pretty much done in December of that year, and was exited from OG entirely at the end of the first semester, during which time she progressed 5 grade levels in spelling. She's retained those gains over the last 3 years.

DS, who I'm told is more severe than DD (though identical scores ~ I asked if they pulled the right kid's record), only qualified for 80 minutes a week, starting early in the 2nd semester of 4th grade. He's in 5th now. The difference in time is enough that he's making good progress, but hasn't exploded in the manner that DD did (including failing to retain last year's gains). The school is hanging that on other issues, but I'm fairly certain that the difference is that 80 minutes is simply less than 200 minutes. We have an IEP meeting in January, and I will be pushing for more minutes. Otherwise, I think I'll have to find a way to put the OG in privately.

Wow.

Thank you for putting that into perspective.

Considering the amount of hours required I'm not sure how anyone is expected to fit that in after school.

Any idea where to look first to find detailed district policy?