Hi all!
This is my first post. I'm reaching out for advice regarding gifted twin boys( 2nd grade /7.5 yrs). One son was tested on the WISC IV last week and has a qualifying score for DYS. My other son is testing tomorrow.

I'm glad we went forward with testing but still I have very mixed feelings regarding testing and especially the sharing of scores (even with educators).

Can anyone address past experiences especially with twins and how sharing the scores with school admin impacted the way their children were regarded and weather or not it actually helped advocating for services?

I'm considering sharing only one childs' score at a time and advocating for them separately. Does anyone have a better idea? I'd really like the school to accommodate us as one twin is very happy and has no need for a school change. His enrichment needs are much easier to meet.

And has anyone had issues with leakage of scores?

Thank you!!

I'm pretty sure that someone on here has twin girls with very different needs - Laurie918, I think.

I am a twin but our scores were pretty different and we had different needs. So it wasn't hard for my parents to deal with each of our needs separately. (The fact that we were boy/girl twins may have also played a part.) When they talked to the school it was just about me because they didn't feel my brother needed anything different. Of course the fact that we were twins did play a big factor in the course of academic accommodations. If I had been a singleton I would have skipped a grade because that was what I wanted and that would have worked for me both academically and socially (all my friends were two years older). But that wouldn't have been good for my brother and so instead I was engaged with things like Olympics of the Mind and Science Fair and gifted classes and research projects and eventually honors and AP courses.

So I think the first question you need to answer is just how different are your kids' abilities and needs. If their needs are quite different I think you could just talk to the school about one of them. But if they both have very high abilities but different needs then I think you have to talk with the school about both of them, just for practical purposes if for nothing else.

As far as revealing scores to the school it is absolutely not necessary. But they can be incredibly helpful in convincing skeptical educators that you aren't just "that" parent and that you haven't just hothoused your children. It can be particularly helpful in that case to have both achievement and ability testing.

Funtimes,

Elizabeth is correct. I have 10yr twin girls, both 2e in different ways. Below are some of my experiences/suggestions (could be different for you).
1. I don't recommend sharing scores between the kids. Our girls found out their scores inadvertently and it has caused no end of grief between them.
2. Before sharing with the school, get a sense of what you want from them. In our case, sharing with the school was a disaster. We were seen as "those parents who think their kids are special". We received an IEP 2 years after requesting and it was not being followed even after we got it. One of our daughters has a physical hand defect which makes it impossible to write and they still didn't accommodate until we advised hiring an advocate. They didn't believe the test scores (3 different docs) nor the fact that daughter with more challenges was dyslexic. If there are recommendations for accommodations in the report you received from your doc, I would go to the wrights law book, pull out all the suggested accommodations, and include that in a written request. If both of your children need accommodations, I actually would start with the child with the least needs. I think this will reduce "staff fatigue" with your family. Again, only my experiences/suggestions.
3. Document everything..when you met, who was in attendance, the action items coming out of the meeting.
4. Our school was so disturbingly non-compliant we decided that public school wasn't a right fit.
Again, you may have a school/district that does well with 2e kids so your experiences may differ. Go in prepared and in a collaborative manner. If that doesn't work, then bring on mama bear PM me if you want more details.
All the best

I have gifted twin boys with different educational needs. I don't think there's a problem sharing the scores, if you think someone at your school will understand them.

For our PG son, IQ and EXPLORE scores paved the way to accommodations in elementary school. He presents as a "little professor," and he was depressed about school by 4th grade, so his IQ scores weren't a big surprise to anyone. The elementary school principal immediately recognized that his needs wouldn't be served with the regular curriculum, so she approved every accommodation we requested. But nothing helped get accommodations in middle school, forcing us to homeschool and switch schools for a grade skip. At that time, ACT scores were enough to get him whatever acceleration he needed and wanted at his new school.

For my HG/2E son, IQ scores did not help in elementary school at all. He has dyslexia and I think the teachers just did not believe his IQ could be so high, based on his reading and writing output. He also tries to be everything his twin is not, so he was the complete opposite of the "little professor," which didn't help our case for gifted accommodations! The IQ scores and official dyslexia diagnosis did help him get a 504 but not an IEP. We had to hire a private tutor from about ages 7-10, and by middle school, his achievement was equal to his IQ. By middle school, only achievement on nationally normed tests like EXPLORE, ACT or MAPS, were relevant to administrators. They really didn't care about his IQ. He's a top student, so they just want to make sure he remains that way to boost the school's scores, which is why they allow him to keep his 504. My HG/2E boy is in honors classes and doesn't need to be accelerated beyond those.

I do agree that sharing scores with your boys would be a bad idea. (Not saying you were planning to do that!) Twins already have so many people who compare them to each other-- they don't need any kind of data to "prove" one might be smarter than the other. My boys have gone out of their way to carve their own paths, and I'm glad they've done that. They're both very smart, but their different interests at home and school allow them to be good friends who are not competitive with each other, which is what I've wanted as a mom.

Feel free to PM if you have any specific questions I could answer.

Thank you everyone.
Twin 2 is testing right now and my stomach is in knots. I'm totally second guessing myself.

At least I'll know soon enough how different their needs are!

ElizabethN, im considering s school change for twin #1 bc I can barely meet his math/ computer/science needs. It's a full time job after school right now. But he's a twin! It might just be too sad/ hard to split. I think I'm looking for the least damage here. I'm hoping somehow testing will make that decision more clear. As a twin would you have ever consented to different schools?

Laurie918, we are in a great school, great town, but bc of this there are too many parents pushing the school for more. Each time I think I have advocated well
Someone hears about it and it's revoked. In a perfect world he would work with s math tutor during school. My other son is doing well in school with extras of chess and reading at home.

Syobkrig,

Your description of your twins is almost identical to mine! Praying this testing will clarify strengths/weaknesses and allow my kiddos to reach their full potential without twin competitive/emotional trauma.

More anecdotes: Two friends with twins (11 YO, one same sex, one mixed), both have ended up moving one of the pair out of their neighbourhood school. Kids are always pretty (frighteningly) aware of differences amongst them, I've found. In both these families, the kids seem to have found it fairly easy to recognize/ accept that different needs necessitated different environments.

While it is uniquely hard to separate twins, both families have also found advantages in the way it has allowed each child to more easily and comfortably be themselves. So in some ways, the twins have become closer, enjoying each other more with less comparing/ competing, and more ability to draw on unique pools of friends.

I know three sets of twins, including my own, who are in different schools. I don't think it's the right choice for every twin set, but my boys starting asking to be in separate classes in pre-k, so it was never going to be a problem separating them. My HG/2E boy does not want to be compared to his PG brother. By having them in separate schools, my HG boy gets to be super-smart, without being overshadowed by someone virtually no one can compete with. Plus, both boys are now in a school where their own strengths can shine. It's a logistical challenge, but one we are willing to make for the boys.

I've had numerous students who were twins, or even triplets, where one or more of the set were in a different school. A few years back, both twins in a set graduated top of their class--from different high schools (we had one twin).

Thank you everyone! For everyone who mentioned twins at different schools, does anyone know at what age the split was made. I can definitely see a separation happening (and it being a good thing) if I muster up the courage to make it happen. I'm still waiting on DS2 scores. Its making me nervous, as DS1 scores were made known to me almost the day of.

Ok, some interesting info on twin 2 and I don't have a full report yet. FSIQ 124, no issues with PS or WM. Notable is math reasoning 98% and phonics 19%, but doing great in school and loves to read. OG tutor was suggested vs full neuropsych eval. Does anyone have experience with that?

So if I understand your post correctly, you're considering advocating to move your DYS twin (twin #1) to better meet his academic needs in math. Twin #2 tests with a lower FSIQ and potential dyslexia (not sure if there was a diagnosis or not, of if there is perhaps another issue that might be impacting phonics score.

This is my advice, fwiw - first ask for subtest scores on the WISC for twin #2, and also ask for a meeting with the psych to discuss what their findings are, and how they are coming up with the recommendation for OG. Having parented a child with issues with reading, I'd consider that priority #1 above advocating for your DYS child, but really you will (I'm guessing) be able to (and need to) advocate for both. The issue with the potential LD impacting reading (or simply being significantly behind grade level) - is that you need to remediate appropriately asap or your child can lose ground in vocabulary as well as not having access to higher level cognitive challenges in academics. Reading ability is *so* key, not just in reading books and developing vocabulary, but it can impact simple things such as answering a math problem incorrectly because it wasn't read correctly.

Re needing an OG tutor vs neuropsych - my experience has been that the neuropsych is helpful in discerning what the root cause is when there are discrepancies in achievement testing potentially caused by LDs or other reasons. They aren't the "end result" in testing (typically) though, because usually what you come out of a neuropsych with is recommendations for further follow-up testing or therapies if a challenge is found. With my dyslexic dd, we didn't have a full suite of neuropsych testing but instead ability vs achievement testing and a few initial dyslexia screens (one with the tester, one or two at school).. and ultimately a thorough suite of reading-related testing by a reading/dyslexia specialist) (this testing included oral reading, phonics, and just about every reading skill under the sun). That was the testing that was ultimately most helpful because we came out of it with a very clear idea of where her challenge was and what needed to be done (in terms of reading tutoring programs). It sounds like you have enough of a clue that the issue your ds has is associated with reading, so that would most likely be the approach I'd take - however, if you're not clear that it's a reading challenge, a neuropsych eval which didn't require repeating achievement and ability testing might be useful.

I'm also not sure which of your twins you are referring to when you say they are happy in school - my guess is it's twin #2? and that twin #1 wants more in the way of academic challenge? If that's the case, I wouldn't put twin #2 aside to focus on twin #1s needs at the moment - that discrepancy in phonics score is huge. High ability students who are challenged with reading can often compensate really well in the early elementary grades, but they are still losing ground over where they *can* be if they receive remediation and appropriate accommodations. It's also possible that twin #2 is every bit as high in ability level as twin #1 (i.e., DYS).. but they aren't testing at DYS level because of the impact of a reading disability. It's also possible twin #2 might thrive with math enrichment just as twin #1 has (or some other type of academic enrichment), but dealing with reading struggles is preventing him from having the energy and motivation that allow twin #1 to follow academic passions.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Total inexpert opinion here - phonics at 19th but loves to read suggests to me that somewhere there is a seriously high number(s) compensating for some critical missing skills. Reading and writing demands on your DS will be escalating rapidly over the next few years, and if he's doing it all the hard way, at some point it could start to get really, really hard.

So yes, definitely don't delay O-G. But you also want to be confident you have as clear and full a picture as possible of your DS's strengths and weaknesses both. If any of the numbers so far don't make sense with what you see, or don't address your questions, it's worthwhile digging deeper into diagnosis with the neuropsych, so that those who then help with interventions really know what they are dealing with. And as polarbear says, each bit is just one more step in a long-term process, not (alas) "the answer".

Some helpful background:

Last year DS1 had a very rough year socially and with almost no academic gain. Laziness and frustration set in quickly. We had tears off the bus daily for a month or so. This prompted us to seek help. We almost switched schools over the summer. Ive been advocating for him for almost a year now, but I don't even really know if it will be enough. On his WJ3 everything was about 70-80% across the board. I feel like he does what he is asked at school and no more. But mostly, i need to intervene for this kid and fast bc at home he makes up for his slow day and he needs more than I can give. And he's not my only child. The other 2 need just as much.

DS2 made major gains with reading last year and had an amazing year. He's super social, very funny, and was so happy.

While considering a school switch, we applied both boys to a private school which gave the WIAT3. That was the first we noticed the big discrepancy for twin 2. Regardless of the phonics issue, twin 2 actually does really well ( so far) in school.

I'm currently advocating for both, but the school has already intervened for DS2 a good bit without my prompting.

BTW-Besides dyslexia, what other issues can lower the phonics score?

Thank you!

No experience with the twins, but certainly experience with 2 kids on this. Both of mine read way above grade level, but in 4th grade were identified to have very low phonics skills, far out of sync with what would be expected based on other reading skills. For my son, the phonics skills were so weak, no one's really sure how it is he can read.

Math reasoning vs phonics isn't the right comparison here. What are the other reading scores and the VIQ scores?

As polarbear suggested, OG instructors have a really useful host of tests to identify and target the exact gaps in phonics skills, more than we've gotten from neuropsych evaluations. This monitoring can also be done very frequently, so we get quarterly reports monitoring how the gaps are being plugged. You will know fairly quickly if OG is the right approach.

Hi Geofizz,

I don't have a full report yet and probably won't until after Thanksgiving. Here's all I have DS2:

FSIQ 124
Verbal Comprehension 98%
PS 73%
Broad reading 59%
B Written 49%
B math 49%
math problem solving 98%
phonetic decoding 19%
orthographic processing 59%
rapid naming 60%

Geofizz,

Can I ask how many hours a week you have OG? and if that would ever be done in school?
And btw I'm not sure what VIQ is? These numbers are all still very new to me.

Thank you!

Sorry, by VIQ I just meant the verbal index score of the IQ test: What you have listed as Verbal Comprehension.

Whether or not you can get services at school for a child reading on or above grade level is a matter of local policy. We've lucked out in that regard (with the help of ground work laid by a group of families who filed a complaint against our district). The local policy here is to qualify a kid for intervention services if the difference between verbal comprehension index (~130 in your son's case) and the phonics score (~87 in your son's case) is greater than 23 points regardless of how high the verbal comprehension score is if it's having a negative effect on the child's academic or emotional growth. {Edit: even the broad reading of 59th percentile is a score of ~103, which would would also "qualify" the kid at our school. Our district, though, is very unusual with their aggressive approach to qualifying kids with dyslexia.}

My DD qualified for 200 minutes a week of OG, which started on the first day of 5th grade for her. She was pretty much done in December of that year, and was exited from OG entirely at the end of the first semester, during which time she progressed 5 grade levels in spelling. She's retained those gains over the last 3 years.

DS, who I'm told is more severe than DD (though identical scores ~ I asked if they pulled the right kid's record), only qualified for 80 minutes a week, starting early in the 2nd semester of 4th grade. He's in 5th now. The difference in time is enough that he's making good progress, but hasn't exploded in the manner that DD did (including failing to retain last year's gains). The school is hanging that on other issues, but I'm fairly certain that the difference is that 80 minutes is simply less than 200 minutes. We have an IEP meeting in January, and I will be pushing for more minutes. Otherwise, I think I'll have to find a way to put the OG in privately.

Wow.

Thank you for putting that into perspective.

Considering the amount of hours required I'm not sure how anyone is expected to fit that in after school.

Any idea where to look first to find detailed district policy?

Start on the district web page, look under "student services" or "special education" or something along those lines.

I've only heard the 23 point split as qualification criteria verbally (both to me and to at least two other sets of parents I've spoken to) in IEP-qualification meetings. I've not seen it written down, and I suspect that this is because they don't want to have to live by this as a hard and fast rule.

In all cases I'm aware of in our district, both the parents and the teachers also had ample additional evidence that it was affecting the child's academic progress or social/emotional state. In our case, that's too bad, because the phonemic awareness problems were evident long before then, and now we have to do both intervention as well as emotional repair work.

Not sure I would agree that he has no issues with processing speed, despite average scores. His orthographic processing (orthographic mapping? phonological processing?) and rapid naming (key cognitive processes underlying the acquisition of fluent decoding skills) are also substantially lower than his verbal comprehension, despite being in the average range, which makes sense at they feed into the even lower phonetic decoding score (or is this phonetic coding, in which case it's a phonological processing cluster?). (Did he take the WJIV or III? If these are their actual names, some of your tests/subtests don't match up with the III.) (I know tests are very confusing!)

Anyway, I think it's clear that he would benefit from direct instruction in phonological processing, such as one obtains through OG or Lindamood-Bell.

BTW, 23 points is a 1.5 SD difference. It may be written down in district policy in that form.

Yeah, I know, I was translating for funtimes. Nope, not written down in any way, shape, or form.

Just checked. It was WISC4 and WJ4 (not 3)for both boys. Then DS2 did a few extra tests (1-bc he actually finished early and 2- bc we went into this with low pseudo word decoding from WIAT3 over the summer)

Btw DS1 had PS only 66%.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what makes my kids' achievement less than ability, esp for twin 1. Twin 2 maybe we already have the answer? And what is their current school willing to do? Very worried both boys will be left out of gifted programming, but I'm not even sure that's the right solution, for us anyway. They both seem to learn exponentially fast 1:1.

Okay, that explains it. In that case DS2's WJIV results definitely indicate deficits in phonological processing, not even in the average range (that's phonetic coding, not decoding, and refers to two of the specific phonological processing skills that are necessary precursors to attaining fluent phonetic decoding skills). There shouldn't be a problem qualifying for phonemic awareness remediation (aka Orton-Gillingham) on the basis of the 19th %ile score, as that is not just a personal weakness, but a normative weakness, in most states (except for the ones that insist on <16th %ile).

I expect the extra tests were the phonetic coding subtests from WJIV Oral Language, since that's what I would give (out of the WJIV) based on low pseudoword decoding. And maybe phoneme/grapheme knowledge (I assume that's what orthographic processing was), for the associated encoding (spelling) skills.

I think you do have the answer for twin 2. Fortunately, it's one that has a body of research with a clear remediation path.

How's twin 1's achievement testing? Low PS can be indicative of a number of things, including dyslexic/dysgraphic category profiles. Or ADHD, or perfectionism, or motor impairments (like DCD), etc. More data might help.

Thanks aeh,

WJ4 for DS1 ranged mostly from 70-90%

some highs and lows below

sentence writing 50%
passage comprehension 67%
reading fluency 64%
mathematics 95%
math calculation 65%
math fact fluency 33% yikes !
applied problem 98%
word attack 98%

Hmm. These are surprisingly low numbers for someone with DYS level cognition, except in mathematics reasoning and word attack. So this tells us that, like his twin, his mathematical thinking is exceptionally strong, but his basic skills are not. Calculation skills and fact fluency are in the average range.

In reading, he is ahead of his bro in his phonetic decoding skills, by quite a bit, with word attack more like what one would expect for his cognition. Unfortunately, neither his reading fluency nor his reading comprehension are at the same level, which suggests that, although his phonological processing is probably okay, problems with automaticity are factors for him, too, so that he still has to approach reading decoding as a cognitive exercise, not a second-nature skill, which doesn't leave enough attention and cognition left for the level of comprehension of which he is capable. You had noted that his processing speed was a relative weakness. This is the kind of matching academic profile I was thinking of. Not surprisingly, sentence writing fluency is also relatively weaker than cognition, in the average range. That's a timed fine-motor task, in addition to being a written expression task. Double whammy of general speed and decoding/encoding automaticity/fluency. Is his spelling at the same level in isolation vs in extended writing? Or about the same?

Tough question.

His spelling on spelling tests is almost always 100%. When spelling while writing he misspells but uses phonetically correct substitutions. Kight for kite. He just loves that igh makes the long I sound. He was taught in K to just write and not worry about spelling and now we are backtracking trying to undo that idea. He remembers that he was told not to worry about spelling and tells me its ok. Or at least he used to. He is just now asking for correct spelling. When he texts or emails ( with the help of computer spelling) I can't always tell if its him or my husband texting. He uses advanced vocabulary. He starts to type the word he wants and when he sees it he knows which the correct word is.

So from your description, it appears that he can spell accurately in isolation, either when producing individual words in a spelling-focused task, or when all he has to do is recognize the correct spelling. However, he does not effectively retrieve correct spelling patterns from memory when engaged in a more cognitively-demanding task.

Pretty much what I would expect from a child who has not attained automaticity in one of the precursor skills to fluent written expression. My dysgraphic-esque child is very similar: spells fine when that's the whole task, and can distinguish between correct and incorrect spelling provided, but reverts to phonetic equivalents when attempting to think and write at the same time.

Your DS1 has no scores below average, which may or may not make it a tougher sell to get accommodations or interventions through an IEP or 504, but, in the real world (and most likely college), should be using many of the same decoding/encoding accommodations I would suggest for his twin, including, obviously, word prediction software and speech-to-text (since these have proven effective for him already).

I have twins in middle school and have never treated them as a package deal because they are two different people with different talents/interests/priorities/needs at different times. As a matter of fact, I have actually used each as a contrast and thus an additional support for the other for advocacy purposes at different times. It's a matter of individual philosophy, but I never ever share a particular score/award unless there was a specific purpose. As far as leakage, it's likely that other teachers/administrators will know but other parents should not have access to your DS' scores. However, I have found that other students talk so other parents often already have ideas about your child.

Hi all. Away for the holidays for a bit- nice to be back in the swing. Thank you everyone for your input.