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Hi all, please help. So I am getting an ADHD eval for my son and I gave his teacher, among other things, the BASC-2 scale to complete. She returned it to me in a sealed envelope, though I had originally asked her just to send it to the facility. She returned it to me b/c I had forgotten she cannot talk with DS's medical team or doctors without me signing a release. So, I looked at the scale. I mean, it is MY kid, right? SO, I was totally prepared for her ratings to be more harsh, particularly in areas of inattention. Obviously, there are issues, particularly school ones, that is why I am getting an eval for him. But many of her ratng seem way over the top. Let me say also, that my son is not a typical ADHD presentation on terms of the kid who was always running around, disruptive, etc. He is absolutely inattentive in certain situations. But he's not a disruptive guy. She put he "always disrupts other children's activities;" he "always disobeys," "always breaks the rules" "never encourages others to their best" "always bothers children when they are working." He "always fails to complete his tests" (what the heck - I get all of his tests home, I think, not only are they complete but they are always %100); "always acts without thinking" And, get these two: "always seems out of touch with reality" and "always does strange things"! Also, she put "often" for "acts strangely." And is "often chosen last for games" (this breaks my heart but he never complains of this, and has a best friend at school (they have sleep overs and have been friends since kindergarten;) and the two of them seem to have a bit of a group... Oh, and she put he is "never liked well by children of the same sex" and is "never a good sport" This kid I know and see is SUCH a good sport. Having EDS and being weaker and uncoordinated renders him HAVING to be a good sport. I watch him play chess and he is good sport about that too. This is a kid is used to losing and used to struggling (like swimming and writing). I am actually very proud of what a good sport he is. Unlike my adorable younger child who is very assertive and HAS to win. LOL.

These simply do not comport with the kid I know and it's not like I don't spend much time with him. I know him really well and have been observing him a lot. I also observe him at school when I volunteer (Last year I went every week to his class and helped out in the background so I got to watch him a lot and he didn't even know I was there at times). I realize that I am not there all of the time but these replies seem very extreme.

I have sort-of been here before. In pre-school I gave this form to DS's pre-school teacher to fill out as part of an eval to get DS OT for his hypotonia and delayed fine motor (which we now know is due to Ehlers Danlos). Same thing happened where the teacher put really disturbing and seemingly extreme ratings. I emailed the teacher about it b/c all of the extreme ratings were never brought to my attention before and some of them I KNEW weren't true like "always has potty accidents" (I would know b/c he'd come home with the soiled clothes). That teacher admitted in writing that she "exaggerated b/c you need to exaggerate to get a child help." When I showed that to the eval team they disregarded the scale. However, in kindergarten, when I had DS evaluated his kindergarten teacher filled out scales and I saw them and also he was quoted extensively in the report and he was very accurate. Last year DS had more than one scale filled out by his teacher. Again, hers seemed more accurate to me.... I mean he's always rated way more "inattentive" and such than I see at home but nothing extreme that I noticed.

So, I am not sure what to do. On the one hand, should I sit down with her about these items and confront her and ask for specifics? If they are true I feel like he must really be unhappy at school and perhaps I should seriously consider pulling him. On the other hand I feel like I should just realize that these teachers seem to exaggerate for whatever reason particularly when they think you will not see the scale, and just move on. I mean, the chances of him getting an adhd-inattentive diagnosis is probabaly pretty damn high ... I doubt this will really makes any difference.

HAs anyone had this experience. Is it possible my kid is really THAT OFF perhaps having some personality disorder or mental illness and my husband and I are in some serious denial?

SO heartbreaking to read this stuff about your own kid. Especially when the kid you see is so cool and creative and sweet and smart

Sounds like the same situation as the pre-school teacher, then. This is a teacher who has already made her own diagnosis and wants to make sure that her conclusion wins.

Do you have a concern about having opened the sealed envelope in terms of even approaching her about it?

I am so sorry I am doing this now. I am so tired of all of this... being "evaluated" every year... Reading this crap about your kid all of the time. Like, I just want to 'throw it all out and say to hell with it... I am done with this. No more." Other than his complaining he is bored and the teachers saying he pays no attention in their classes - he gets good grades, seems happy enough, has friends, and I am never called about his behavior and never seems to be "in trouble" I feel like I am just a glutton for punishment and looking for trouble and subjecting my kid to the same.

Oh and I am really starting to dislike teachers.

DS's teacher just filled out the BASC for the neuropsych and I opened the sealed envelope and looked at it. I thought she was overly positive, if anything. The only thing on there that I thought was odd was she put "never organized" which didn't go along with the other things where she said he was fine. The neuropsych picked up on it and said it was probably an error. I ended up emailing her and said "the neuropsych is wondering if that was an error, or if you really meant never organized". She emailed me back and said it wasn't supposed to be "never", but an example with some disorganization might be with projects which require cutting & gluing . . . organizing his materials to use and then taking care of them after he is done (scissors, glue, and scraps). So she probably did mean to put "never" then.
I think she might be extreme on it knowing that it's the only way to get a diagnosis, and the "never" and "always" don't really mean "never" or "always" (it's a stupid inventory since when would anyone ever be "never" or "always" for these things anyway?).
If it was just a couple questions I would suggest doing what I did and say "the neuropsych was wondering if you really meant to say never for X question." But there are so many of them like that, you really can't do that. Maybe you should just say you saw it and you are concerned about her answers and want to come in and discuss. Can anyone really fault a parent for wanting to know how their child's teacher rates them? You have a right to her input. Let us know what she says if you talk to her! Hopefully she was over-exaggerating but that doesn't say much about her as a teacher. That could lead to a false diagnosis, possible meds that aren't needed, etc.

Not really. He's 8 years old and he's my kid. I feel like if you write something about him and submit it for something as serious as this I deserve to know what you say and you had better be able to defend it.

My only concern is that I'll get angry with her, have an argument.... That our "relationship" break down. Part of me feels like - just brush it off but I know me ... I can't trust her now so I'll distance myself and be less involved, ykwim? Like we're not a team anymore.

See this is what I find annoying... Does everyone WANT a diagnosis? How about wanting a fair assessment and picture and really finding out what's up? This weird mentally of "Oh we'll exaggerate and get him that DX!" mentality is so weird around here in the schools.

I swear I feel like tossing it all in the trash.

SOrry that I keep venting. SO upset. Just so upset.

Quite honestly, she must know I could eventually see what she wrote. I am sure I could ask for his medical file and see the whole damn thing - doctor's notes, test results, surveys - it's my kid's medical record!

FWIW, we had a very similar experience with our teacher's BASC rating back in 2nd grade when ds had his first neuropsych eval. We didn't realize he was dysgraphic at that point in time, he was clearly struggling (and failing) in the classroom and he was having panic attacks at home and at school. I didn't realize it then, but now, years later, when ds has finally found his voice, he's very up front with me that he will never forget 2nd grade because it was the worst year of his life. His teacher thought he had ADHD or was cognitively challenged or maybe something else. She complained that he never did any work, that he stared off into space and that he refused to do any work in class. I was worried that there might be bias in her BASC report, so we purposely asked that ds' student teacher also fill out a report (our neuropsych agreed that it was a good idea to have her fill out a survey -she'd been in the classroom full-time all year so she'd had lots of opportunity to observe and get to know ds). Weeeellllll..... after we'd given the reports to each teacher (at the same time)... the classroom teacher told the student teacher not to fill her report out and she later told us that she'd be the only teacher filling out the report because the student teacher didn't have enough experience to fill it out. Ridiculous!


I knew our teacher's report was going to be depressing to read, and it was - even more so than I predicted. I quoted the above responses your ds had because our ds' teacher said the same things about those. The "always" just really got to me. Another one of her rankings I will *never* forget was she reported that he "never washed his hands after using the bathroom"... um.... how the heck did she know that... was she following him into the bathroom? Honestly, he was a 7 year old boy... as his mom I try my best to teach him good hygiene habits but I wasn't following him into the bathroom to check at the time... and... oh gosh, ds never *went* to the bathroom at school because he was afraid of getting lost.

Anyway, fwiw, our ds did receive a diagnosis of ADHD (inattentive, mild) through that neuropsych eval, and the reasons for the diagnosis were the ratings from the teacher and a slightly elevated response on a computerized test of attention. A follow-up ADHD eval by our ped two years later resulted in a non-diagnosis but attributed the symptoms that looked like ADHD to dyspraxia as well as boredom in the classroom. A follow-up neuropsych eval prior to middle school also reported no symptoms of ADHD.

In your shoes, I would talk to the evaluator about your concerns about the teachers' responses. I would *eventually* talk to the teacher, but not until after you have your report from the person doing the eval. Then I'd approach it by saying "the evaluator shared this information with me from the BASC survey you filled out for ds". That's the way I'd go about talking to the teacher and trying to get some real information about what's going on in class without having her know I opened the envelope. Our neuropsych showed us a bunch of ds' teacher's responses directly from her filled-out form in our parent review.



It's not the child you know. You know your ds better than anyone. The way I'd look at this *one* report is that something's not working in his classroom and that there's *something* up - so go forward, see what the teacher has to say when you ask her about what she's said in the report, keep staying on top of what you can re what's up with your ds and just keep moving forward. Definitely let the evaluator know you have concerns about the teacher's responses. You might also have the evaluator look at ds' previous' BASC or ADHD eval reports. The one thing that I've been told (by our ped) is key in diagnosing ADHD is that the behaviors must occur in more than one setting (school alone doesn't count) and that the behaviors should have been present before your child started school. I don't know that they'd always be noticable, but fwiw, that was one of our ped's strongest concerns with our ds' diagnosis - he had had no signs of ADHD in preschool or at home.



I would definitely talk to her about them, but as I mentioned above, I'd wait until I could tell her I found out from the evaluator rather than let her know you opened the envelope up.


Pulling him out might not be the only solution - we moved our ds to a different classroom rather than pulling him out of school.


It is really tough to read this type of input on your child - it still upsets me to think about it many years later. I don't know if it will help at all to know this, but that sad little boy that I read about in that depressingly horrible BASC rating so many years ago in 2nd grade is about to go to high school next year - and he's a wonderful kid (no bias lol!). He went through years of struggle in elementary school but he's found himself, he has really gained a ton of maturity and self-awareness over the past two years in particular, and he's made a ton of progress re his challenges. He's motivated, he's happy (usually lol), he has friends, and he's just a very *nice* kid. A teacher who met him today would *never* anticipate that his 2nd grade teacher could have said the things that were said on his BASC.

Hang in there,

polarbear

We had something like this with DD's 2nd grade teacher, who said that DD was "often" vindictive. I called her on it in a 504 meeting, and her justification was that DD "could get really angry." I told her I didn't think that was what "vindictive" meant, and let it go. I figured that the school psych and the principal had seen the exchange, so I didn't need to press further.

Hugs - and understand that this teacher just may be a HORRIBLE fit for your DS. I realized when one of my DC was in pre-K that I was really going to have to watch teacher matches for this child. One of my DC is the type that most teachers LOVE, and the other produces extreme reactions - they either "get" DC or they DON'T. A couple of teachers have LOVED DC, because they "get" DC. If they don't "get" DC, I have to brace myself. DC is extremely intense, so DC is not everyone's cup of tea (and DC is not always easy to deal with at home, either - NOT easy-going). I ALWAYS carefully and thoroughly fill out requests for parent input on "placement forms" for school. One year, I even met with the school principal to ensure a good fit for the coming year (and that was DC's best teacher and best year yet, IMO).

I would probably need to stay away from that teacher for a while to "cool off." When it comes to your DC, it feels very personal.

Also, a teacher that truly loves children and is skilled will recognize the STRENGTHS in every child, as well as any areas that need improvement. Teachers are of course, are human, and will have an easier time with some students than others. I would be skeptical of any teacher, however, that had nothing good to say about a child. Such a teacher is not only a poor match, but perhaps should not be working with young children.

You know your DC best. Focus on your DS's strengths - remind yourself of them now and do NOT let the teacher evaluation impact your view of your DC. Your DS may simply need more careful teacher selection in the future.

Sending support...

Lots of great advice so far.

Last year DS's grade 1 teacher suspected ADHD-I and encouraged us to test. I was very fortunate that I had the opportunity to volunteer in the class so I could see with my own eyes what she was seeing that made her think of ADHD. TBH in our case I don't blame her, to an untrained person he fit many of the stereotypes. Many of the behaviours were things that he didn't exhibit in kindergarten or for other teachers that were better at differentiating, more organized and had better classroom management among other things.

In reality he was an incredibly frustrated 2e kid who did NOT mesh well with her teaching methods or with the high level of chaos in her class. For him the increased writing expectations in grade 1 emphasized his LD and he was extremely frustrated by that and resulted in bad behaviour. On the other side of things was the boredom when they repeated things again and again and again. It didn't help that there was another kid in the class with diagnosed ADHD and the two of them fed off each other and the teacher could not deal with one of them, let alone two.

The ed-psych read us all of her report which was hard to hear but she was able to see through all of it. We explained what we saw at home and she spent many hours with DS to get her own opinion. In the end she wrote up an amazing report that helped the teacher understand him and it helped. It still wasn't the best fit but it improved things enough to survive the rest of the year. We then advocated for a better fit this year and it has been a huge improvement.

I don't have any specific advice other than breath, explain to your psych your concerns and see what comes out in the end. Hopefully they will be able to get to the root of whatever the issue is and help him. Good luck.

Thank you so much Polarbear. Your thoughts are especially meaningful because our DSs have the same challenges and such a similar profile. Now that I have cooled down, I am able to realize I don't think teacher is meaning to be problematic or malicious - these teachers simply do not understand our type of kids. They ARE complicated. First of all, Ds's teacher has never heard of dyspraxia or developmental coordination disorder. Never. Heard. Of. It. I am not sure if she has ever heard of dysgraphia before either. I also think she doesn't fully appreciate how meaningful these statements in these surveys are and what they mean. For example, My DH said when looking at the scale, "'Sometimes does strange things?' Of course, don't we all? He and his brother were making faces at each other the other morning and laughing hysterically! He is quirky with his creative shocks and stories coming to him. We all do strange things sometimes!" And I had to tell him "no, they mean *strange things,* like abnormal, like think socially abherrant. Not just going off to write and act out a story or making faces with his brother." I only know that because this stuff is quoted and repeated back in the reports and used to support serious diagnoses like auitism, ADHD, and things like ODD.

Part of me wonders, too, if this is some sort of fall-out due to the run-ins I have had with her about the 100 book challenge and the math. I wonder if she is trying to get the message across that my parenting and my mindset on those issues are leading to "behavior problems." The "disobeying" that I know of and that I was contacted about was the book things. The teacher really seemed annoyed that he was bringing in books (she insisted that he only choose from the basket and repeatedly disciplined him for reading his own book until I intervened). She also wants him to stay at a certain level and he really does like to read a level or two above (honestly this kid loves a challenge - it's almost like he NEEDS it to be little harder for him to maintain his interest). Anyway, he is constantly disobeying that rule and I support that disobediance. When I talked to teacher on the phone about it she wanted to tell me all about her "philosophy" and how "this wasn't about reading it was about disobeying." We also have had some run-ins about the math work.


That is how I am going to approach it, actually. I am not looking at this as what is "wrong" with my child anymore. With the exception of the adhd issue I already know what's "wrong" with my child. I am approaching the distrubing/extreme statements as "what is going wrong in the school environment and WHAT DO THEY need to do to make this a more inviting supportive environment for my son?" I am going to ask her about each disturbing/distressing statement, find out how accurate it really is and then I am going to say I am very concerned that this isn't a supportive environment for my son and ask "what can the school do to help make this a better place for my son?" ( I got this form an interview with Michael Phelps mom - Michael Phelps apparently has ADHD and his mom was (still is?) a school principal. She said when the school would call her with a litany of complaints about her son, she would respond "so, what are you doing to help him?") I thinkg a change of my perspective is in order. I am lookign at the rating scale as an inventory of where the school is failing my DS NOT where my DS is failing his teacher (and her "philosophy"). I mean, why is DS's teacher "always" letting hm "be choosen last for games." Is he really always being excluded like this? And if so why is she allowing it? We already know he has some special needs like EDS and giftedness and anxiety. Why is he being being routinely excluded like this? What is going on that he "always" breaking the rules"? What rules? perhaps he CAN"T abide by them due to either his physical issues or maybe even his gifttedness (like the book situation). I am turning it around on the school. Because if my child is really that "lost" and excluded and struggling that much to "obey" then something needs to be done and I think at this point it's on the school.



This really DOES help. SO MUCH. I even gave it to my husband to read.

Thsi is EXACTLY my son's complaint. He can not stand the repitition. My son also reports that, unlike last year's class, most of the kids in his class are much lower than he in math and reading. I fear his has no real 'peers' kids who can read and like math as much as he. Last year in his class there were a number of kids who were very high (higher than he)in math and reading. He thrived with them in the class - they talked books, they talked math, etc. In this calss, there is dearth ... He reports many of the children are below average.

I have the EXACT same situation. DS8, the one at issue in this thread, is intense and creative and some people get him and some don't. He is wicked smart and seems to produce extreme reactions. Most teachers seem to hate it. A few love it and have loved him but it takes a special person to truly appreciate him. However, having said that, he's not out of control or anything. My younger one is adorable and never argues (with teachers, with me he argues plenty LOL). He seems like rules and is blond-haired and blue eyed and a charmer. He really knows how to charm. He is not extremely verbal like DS8 and is very easy going. And his excutive functioning skils are fantastic. I am repeatedly told that he is an "absolute joy" to have in the classroom.

FWIW, I found this (in hindsight) to also have been a huge wall to get over and a *need* when it came to remediating our ds' challenges - our ds has made the most significant leaps in bounds in remediating his challenges when he is given work to do at his intellectual level, not at the apparent "grade level" where students would be doing the same work. This isn't easy to explain and I don't have much time at the moment, but for instance - with written expression - ds was clearly below grade level for many years in ability to produce various types of written expression, and he needed very basic remediation, and he needed to repeat repeat repeat to learn the skill (the essence of dysgraphia). Yet he couldn't find those words and never made noticable progress until we were giving him written expression assignments that were making him *think* close to the level of his intellectual ability to analyze and synthesize ideas. When we got the "mix" in the right proportions (appropriate thinking level + appropriate remediation level) it worked - not always right away and not always astoundingly amazing, but it worked And that was something that I don't think his elementary school teachers *ever* understood - except perhaps one gifted program teacher.

polarbear

This sort of reminds me of my son's previous school... one of teachers (not his teacher, but same grade - taught across the hall from his class) sometimes helped w/him and loudly proclaimed my son to be violent! Every interaction she had with him somehow seemed to involve my son hitting or kicking her! I was floored. Never had heard a single complaint of that sort about him before. His teacher rated him crazy, off the scale on all of her behavioral assessments for him as well. The school psychologist came in and did his eval and then said he was "emotionally disturbed". Aaannnd... then we abandoned ship for the charter school.

LOL, my DS fits that description and the image of him throwing a desk at a teacher made me giggle.

I think with these evals the person scoring them is supposed to look and make sure responses are consistent between raters and that they are not overly negative or positive. Perhaps that is why they use the words "never" or "always" to try to trick people a little. For the eval the school did both the teacher and I filled out the BRIEF for executive functioning and the psych put both our scores on a graph and we could see that they were pretty consistent with each other with minor variations because DS is a bit different at home than in school. She wrote in the report that neither one of us was overly negative or positive and that our responses were consistent. Just saying that to try to make you feel better Irena--hopefully the teacher's ratings will be shown to be invalid because they are overly negative.

Still thinking about all of this. It seriously keeps me up at night.

I am seriously thinking about shelving the entire evaluation. Perhaps next year, DS will have a teacher that understands giftedness, creativity, and the need for challenge and be able to give a more accurate BASC-2 assessment. I just feel like this teacher really doesn't understand DS well enough to have such big input in this assessment. As it stands now, I have no trouble with him at home (and never really have). I have no trouble with him being babysat, no trouble with him at camps, at mathnasium, at chess club, etc. He gets darn good grades and his reading and math skills are grade levels above. Since he gets strong accommodations for writing now, things have been very smooth this year on that front with him seeming happy and less stressed. I can only imagine that as he continues to get better and better at keyboarding, he will continue to improve in this area. I am not getting phone calls home or any reports that he is "in trouble" all of the time. He reports that he is relatively happy at school - he likes the advanced math class, he likes ATP, I give him books to read at 100 book challenge (yes we "always disobey" and "break the rules" together but it is a rule I am kind of proud he disobeys). And ever since I have been giving magnesium baths his little tic even went away. The only "problem" presently is that the teachers are concerned that he pays "no attention" at all in class. But he must be paying SOME attention because he gets 100% on his tests.

He also seems to be developing his EF skills (granted they are probably weak for his age but they defintiely seem to be improving) - he seems to have no trouble with his home routines, etc. Despite that, he says he loves checklists (as do I, LOL) so he made one up for himself for morning routine (this was prompted by him not being able to rely on DH who takes him in the morning b/c often DH is struggling with his own routine and our 4 year old and because they have them in school) and at the bottom of the list he wrte "what can I do to help us all get out?" So cute.

So why do we need this diagnosis right now? The waiting list for the actual eval is about months anyway. I think it can wait...Much of what he seems to be struggling with seem due to Dyspraxia/DCD and those will improve with time (as they do seem to be doing).

Of course, I am still struggling so tomorrow I may decide to go ahead with the eval. I just don't know. I do know that the teachers 'think' we are going ahead with an ADHD eval, they also know it will takes months and I am pretty sure that'll keep them happy and off my back for awhile.

Thoughts/insights/critisms?

Is your kiddo currently in any therapy? I was thinking, even without a clear picture of what's going on, and without a diagnosis, you can still likely find a therapist for him. I really like the CBT that my son is doing. I feel like what they do would help ANYONE, even without a diagnosis or diagnosible issue.

What is CBT? Is that cognitive behavioral therapy?

Not currently in therapy like that. He is in vision therapy. He also does chess (supposedluy good for attention and thinking ahead skills), hockey and swimming and I feel like those are good "therapies"

There is a "Finding Focus Therapeutic Skills Group" that I may send him to starting in January. BUT it's a bit of trek and expensive... And honestly I think he may be getting tired of always being in "therapy" of some sort (whichis why I backed off on it this year for things like swimming and hockey and chess - stuff he couldn't do b/c he's in therapy all of the time!)

Yes, CBT is cognitive behavior therapy. It's been very beneficial to my son in dealing with frustration and anxiety.

If there is a possibly you'd medicate him, or you are thinking of potential therapies or accommodations for ADHD, then I would go ahead and get an eval right now...just disregard the teacher's assessment if you don't think it's valid. When DS had his eval the psych sent me 2 different teacher forms. Is there another teacher who could evaluate him? You probably don't need it though. There are lots of kids who are homeschooled or don't have teachers who know them well enough to fill out an inventory, but still get ADHD diagnoses.

Thanks all! Still on the fence. DH doesn't think he needs meds at all, particularly since he seems fine in all respects (chess club, math club, hockey lessons, etc.) and is doing so well academically. DH and I are worried the problem is boredom more than adhd (with a little asynchrony thrown in, too) at this point. He said he's not medicating his kid cause some teachers think he's weird and difficult. He is not having any chronic behavior problems in school (other than appearing "to not be paying attention" and then having to figure what is going on)... Even more disconcerting is that appears to us he is not having any of the social problems that the teacher cited in the BASC (that would be another big reason to seriously try meds imo). Not only does he report that he has lots of friends.... we have evidence playdates are already lining up for over the holidays. This leads even more mistrust on my DH's part of the teacher's responses... We are thinking maybe she just exaggerated some (we already had one admit that teachers will do that to get a kid 'help'). I just wish they'd look more to maybe engaging his intellect more to help rather than to a Dx and meds.

Anyway, to help us further, I ask for a copy of last year's teacher's BASC form. I know he only came up "at risk" for "in attention" so I want to see her individual ratings and compare. I also think it would be helpful for an evaluator to see the history. I am thinking of trying to the kindergarten's teacher's form too. His endorsed no problems. I am also getting full achievement done. I think it will help with a complete picture to see how far above (or not) DS is compared to his grade level. Perhaps his most inattentive times will match the achievement levels. Anyway. I figure past BASC results and achievement can only help us and any evaluator in getting a complete picture. Fortunately I am no longer angry at the teacher... I do think she may just be trying to help or doesn't understand that DS may need a lot less repetition and some higher level work.

Okay,so I managed to get some info by asking DS some carefully crafted questions. What I found out was although he reports that doesn't interrupt other students during class (I do not see much interrupting behavior at home), he says he does interrupt the teacher... Not with "answers," he reports he generally keeps those to himself, but when he wants to share something related to what the teacher is saying. He reports that he raises his hand but his arm gets tired ( this is due to EDS and poor muscle tone) and the teacher ignores him and doesn't call on him and so he'll just 'call out'. ( I'm sure the teacher just wants/needs to finish her spiel or whatever).

As for disrupting other students while their working, (which I had to, over a course of days, ask a series of carefully calculated questions to get to finally get to the bottom of this), he reports once or twice he has tried to help students who are struggling with their work after he was all finished his work. He says the students don't get angry at his attempts to help and he's never gotten in trouble for it but he reports he's only done it once or twice (not sure how accurate this amount is).

I think theses may account for a few of the BASC2 responses. It doesn't account for the social and atypical ones though like "always acts strangely" and "is always out of touch with reality" and "always picked last for games" and "never well-liked buy same-sex or opposite-sex peers." I wonder, though, in light of DS's explanations for "always interrupting" and "disrupting other students' work" are these ADHD behaviors? I really have no idea. Obviously, they look like such out if context on a BASC form ... But in reality are they?

JUut bumping to see if there are any thoughts on my last post (if there are not - no worries ) I am now leaning very strongly to not evaluating for adhd at this time. I am getting a full composite (is that the right term?) of Woodcock Johnson III achievement testing for DS in reading and math to see where he is ... May be important in gauging how likely some boredom is contributing... And if there are good enough I may have him apply to DYS We'll see,,,, I'm not sure if they'll be high enough for DYS...

I think they can be ADHD behaviors if he is being impulsive. Is he impulsive in other situations? For instance DD might pick up crayons and start breaking them in half for no reason (that's something she did in Kindergarten). She knows things are wrong, but does them anyway.
I think if he has ADHD you'd see some pretty difficult behavior at home (unless it's just the inattentive type).

Things that I've observed in DD when she's not medicated:
1. Needs constant reminders of what she's supposed to be doing (get coat, shoes, backpack, eat breakfast, put homework in folder, etc. etc).
2. Impulsive behavior like sneaking food, yelling at people, writing on the walls
3. Body in constant motion at certain times of day...for instance we might be in a store and she'll suddenly take off and run down an aisle, fiddle w/ things she's not supposed to fiddle with, etc.
4. Not be able to focus on work if there is noise or disruptions in the room.
5. Space out and lose focus even doing things like playing a board game. She'll need to be reminded that it's her turn.
6. Either rush through things or take a really long time to do things that should be simple

DD has combined type ADHD but she has never interrupted people in school, or had any major behavior issues there really (other than the time she broke the crayons in half and another time she washed her hair in the sink). She does have a really hard time focusing on work at school if she's not medicated though. It's like she has inattentive ADD at school and combined type at home. She seems to hold herself together very well at school and it all comes out at home.

I also think a kid can have executive functioning issues without having ADHD. This is DS. For instance, he can tend to forget what he's doing when he's carrying out tasks involving motor skills. He looks like he has inattentive ADD but his attention seems ok, it's just organization that's an issue.

Hmm, well that's always been my problem. He doesn't have the typical behavior issues at home - in any home activities or in play or socially. When I posted Dr. Barkley's (most awesome, I may add) video on ADHD, people on here were like "he was SPOT on... I saw my child immediately in what he was saying" etc... I didn't. I could sit there saying this really doesn't fit my kid. I have never had these problems with him... I was the mom with the kid at story time who listen raptly to the story. I had/have the kids that I take them to presentation and the natural history museum or science museum and they sit and listen. We have been complimented on it. He was never the kid who ran around the store - he would sit contentedly in the basket/cart looking at a book. He sits fine for his entire meal. His appetite is good and he isn't rushing off to another activity without eating. His babysitters have always professed to like him and say he's good. I do not worry about his behavior at all when I send him to playdates or anything. he even sleepsover his buddy's house and they at least tell me he was fine.

He does chew his pencils. He does fidget.

He does have weak EF skills and I do see that at home and at school. Though they are improving - which is a very pleasant surprise. However, he CAN be very inattentive in certain situations.

He does move a lot. He tends pace, always has, particularly when he is thinking or creating or talking and discussing. He is not comfortable sitting long and will get up and pace around and then come back to what he was doing and sit down. But He does not appear very impulsive to me at all... Maybe I am just used to him but he has always been pretty cautious - liking to observe and get the the 'lay of land' before deciding what he wants to do, who he wants to approach, how things are working (like who is the 'ruler' and who are the "sidekicks' LOL... oh and who seems "fake"). Though as he gets older, he is less so but I thought that was good.

Despite pacing and moving around a lot, he is very SLOW at doing things (particularly EF things). They complain at school he just takes too long to do everything and I can believe it... WHile he reads well and at a very high level and has always liked books ... he fidgets an incredible amount while reading... it is annoying to me. He does not fidget nearly as much in say math.

Maybe he has it mildly. Or maybe these things are due to his other issues - dysgraphia, EDS and visual processing weakness/deficits - they all have a litany of adhd like behavior that accompany them. However, I think they also tend to often be co-morbid with adhd. So hard to tell.

DD has certain things that she DOES do very well in in terms of attention, for instance she read most of a Harry Potter book in one sitting. She can put together a large jigsaw puzzle. Even unmedicated. But the problem usually comes in if there are lots of distractions around her and it's not something that she enjoys a lot or is engrossed in. So writing and math are very hard for her when there are lots of distractions but she does Ok with reading. She uses headphones in the classroom for some work but not other types. She is very slow with written work when she's not medicated (slower than usual-she is always slow with written work). So even with processing speed there are differences. It affects her math and writing but not reading fluency. It doesn't sound like it's a clear cut obvious case of ADHD but I wouldn't rule it out just because there are some things where he has good attention. If he is very inattentive in certain circumstances (like things that are boring to him but he is expected to do) that would be a red flag. I kind of like the computerized test at the neuropsych that DS did because the kids know they need to do it and most of them will try, but it is super boring and it gives an objective measure of how impulsive they are in their answers and whether they start losing focus after a while.

Thanks, Blackcat!I'm not ruling it out (I may wait on getting an eval though)... I was just wondering if those actions would still be considered ADHD symptoms in light of the context and DS's reasoning. I guess just for my own personal assessment and it also goes to whether we should proceed with the eval with this particular teacher having so much input. Incidentally, DS did one of those computer tests and did fine. I know they are simply a diagnostic tool and not the end all be all, of course... I also *think*, not entirely sure, the computer test is a little more sensitive to or measuring impulsiveness rather than inattention? I can't remember ... I thought that is what I read or was told. But, anyway, he did fine at least that day that he was tested.

So, wish me luck today ... going in to do the roommom thing for the holiday party and I am afraid I'm gonna get 'called to the principal's office' and be 'in trouble.' I have been giving DS books from home to read at hundred book challenge independent reading time. He is above the level they put him on back in September (double-red) but are not moving him up for some reason (I think they just haven't tested him yet - I think they only do the DRAs at certain times of the year). Anyway, I put a double-red tag on his latest book so he could read it at independent reading time without getting told on by classmates that "he is reading above his level" or "from a non-hundred book challenge book." The book is indeed well above the double-red level and not a hundred book challenge book (it's "Sixty-Eight Rooms"). Anyway, teacher asked him to bring his book up to her this past week, and looked at it, commented on how it seemed a pretty high level book, and, then, asked him to read it to her. He read about two pages to her. She told him he did a good job and to enjoy the book. But I am totally busted now!!! So, not only do I have to deal with the catty moms today but I'll probably be chastised for supporting and abetting insubordination (principal will have someone watch for me and then have them bring me out - that's how he rolls LOL... at least with me). No wonder DS got "always disobeys" on his BASC form. LOL.

You just do what you have to do. I have no idea what level DS is reading in school. Last year at this time he was at an O, now he is probably at an L. I donated about 50 books to the classroom and DS has been reading an "Earth and Space" book that I sent in, which he really liked, but another boy told him he wanted to read it and DS is so nice, he just gave it to him.
The teacher told Dh that DS has a "book box" with books at his level (whatever she considers his level) but he often chooses lower level books so he can fit in with the other kids. She thinks that's perfectly Ok. To me, that's just more evidence that he should be accelerated.
As for math homework, I finally just sent in a note saying that I hope she understands, but he won't be doing it anymore as it is very far below his academic level, and I will have him do something more appropriate. She previously agreed to give him harder level math, but then just never did it. I know I'm not popular with the teacher anymore, but sometimes you have to put your foot down and just do what you need to do for your child.

So, I have been researching a lot trying to figure out why a teacher would ‘exaggerate,’ or whatever it is she is doing with putting so many odd and disturbing ratings, on my son’s BASC2. She put so many severe behaviors as “always” occurring that do not seem to comport at all with reality in general (incidentally these are not necessarily adhd behaviors – they are more indicative of psychosis, autism and such). I haven’t actually sat down and asked the teacher specifically about each one yet. Although I do have my list of questions prepared (I am planning to approach like I would a deposition unemotionally nail down the “facts”). Anyway, I really would like to understand “why” behind her behavior. I have a hard time believing she is purposefully being malicious.

I think I have stumbled upon what may be going on: a negative halo effect. The halo effect is a cognitive bias in which one's judgments of a person’s character can be influenced by one's overall impression of him or her. For instance, if we like a person we think what attributes that person is having are favorable even if there is actually little knowledge about the individual. The halo effect has been found to be alive and well in the classroom and (surprise, surprise) in teachers’ evaluations of children. For example, in one study, regular and special education elementary school teachers watched videos of a normal child whom they were told was either emotionally disturbed, possessing a learning disorder, mentally retarded, or "normal". The teachers then completed referral forms based on the child's behavior. The results showed that teachers held negative expectancies toward emotionally disturbed children, maintaining these expectancies even when presented with normal behavior. In addition, the mentally retarded label showed a greater degree of negative bias than the emotionally disturbed or learning disabled. My DS has the label of “emotionally disturbed” due to his anxiety disorder. He is also not a very compliant child (although he in no way has ODD – I would be having severe problems with him if he did and I do not) – he asks hard questions, he has wanted to read higher level books and has/does disobey to get that, he has “defied” teachers several times by “working ahead” etc. I know also there is “ negative talk” in the teacher’s lounge adding to the negative halo effect – after all, why else would a teacher who had only 5 interactions total each less than 45 minutes, state, “DS knows if says he’s bored everyone jumps.” So, I think she sees inattention and there is a negative halo effect emanating from that. Additionally, I think she sees his desire/need to learn more as more oppositional and there is a negative halo effect emanating from that.

Anyway, just wanted to share that. I think for those us with 2e kids, a negative halo effect can be an issue.

Revising this to give an update!

So, we discussed this BASC at the meeting. I got some answers and, in my opinion, the teacher's responses and clarification basically invalidate her BASC-2 rating. The meeting was recorded so I can play the recording and/or submit the recording to the ADHD evaluators.

For the one that she answered "always" "Fails to complete tests" She said she read that as "tasks" so that was a mistake. (uh okay). For the "always" "disrupts other children's work," and "always" "disrupts other children's activities" those type questions she explained (and totally corroborated my stance that this is just *not* DS. In fact she said that pretty clearly and directly) that he doesn't purposely bother other children and burst into their work and activities and disrupt them, he doesn't try to get reactions out of people, seek to disrupt others, etc... It's just that his inattentiveness, his 'get lost in the steps' behaviors and his fidgeting is *cause for disruption* in the class. I simply clarified and did not get upset with her or argue but I really do not think that is what the question was trying to elicit at all. The question did not ask if DS's behaviors are a cause for disruption the questions asked 'does student disrupt other's work' and 'does student purposely bother other students.' I think more than one even says "purposefully." The observations also show what is going on in the classroom and they show a kid who is basically kind-of spaced out at times and missing multistep transitions and directions. Not a student being purposefully disruptive, "always" acting "out of control," calling out crazy stuff just for a laugh, bothering people and disobeying just for the heck of it, ect. And there are SEVERAL observations. They also show that he is not "always" inattentive or "never" listens/pays attention. It that about "a quarter of the time" particularly during the transitions he has trouble keeping up and staying on the task of transitioning and number of days/observations it was a little as 15%. So not "always" and not "never" - once on task, he usually stays on task.

And catch this, for the social ones where she put "always picked last" and "always excluded" Apparently this isn't actually happening she is just assuming it would happen. She actually uses sticks to make teams/partners or just assigns them. I mean, is that a valid thing to do on the BASC? Make an assumption like that? How can she put "always" "picked last for teams" when she assigns teams? She doesn't see him at out-door recess or lunch so she doesn't see him playing with the friends he tells me about and the ones that come over our house. I think all of that is colored by her negative impression of him. DS feels himself to have friends so I guess that is the important thing. But how valid is this BASC?

I also felt I heard negative halo effect. For example, in one observation that the school psych did she said she was observing DS playing a math game with his advanced math group. She said she heard him say "danger zone' a few times during the game and was wondering what he was talking about. She said two other students joined the game (you join the game once finished your work) and she heard them go off and ask the teacher (who was still helping other kids doing work what the "danger zone" was. Teacher said that she didn't know. Psych told us (made an assumption) "he had the word "danger zone" in his head, it was totally irrelevant and only in *his* head and he just couldn't get it out." She added something like "and that's okay but stuff like that looks weird to his peers and it is atypical for a second grader." Well, DS is indeed a quirky kid. But I promise you he is NOT that weird. I can assure this had something to do with the game and some one else was involved. I asked her if she had asked him about it and of course she didn't because why would we ask the actual kid what is going on his head? Let's all just make an assumption that he is "atypical" because it is so much fun. Well, I asked DS about the "Danger Zone" that night. He said it was something about which only the boys were knowledgeable. He explained that, during the first round of the game, he and some other boys decided "to try to make the entire board the 'danger zone' with the angry blue guys." He said for second round, he was suggesting it again as angry blue guys filled the screen but he came to realize that the others did not seem to want to do it the second time. He insisted it was something that some other boys playing the game had been involved in as well and that the students who were questioning the meaning of it "were probably girls" (and perhaps they were not involved the first time around?) Although he is definitely quirky, he's usually not quite that completely 'out there' that he would imagining all that or it was just some random thing stuck in his head that he couldn't stop saying. Why didn't she just ask him rather than make an assumption that it was a completely some sort of "atypical-type behavior."

It really is outrageous, isn't it? That sometimes society and/or schools expect conformity and anything outside the norm is considered potentially problematic or an issue.

Your ds is lucky to have you for a mother, someone who will and does celebrate who he is as a person and his wonderful quirkiness and his very able mind.

My go to line with this sort of stuff is:

"Not every quirk has to be seen as a problem. Sometimes a quirk is just a quirk - you don't need to pathologize it."

Once DD was labeled as "NLD-ish" some of the... Well lets just say 'less smart' or 'less sophisticated' members of the school team started to point out social issues that just didn't exist. For example DD was removing herself from kids who were being mean to others, ostracizing others, picking on others, etc (not necessarily directed at DD - just behavior she didn't want to be around). I felt she was making a wise, mature decision. She is a very social child. Her removing herself from these other kids should be sending a message and not a message about her. Instead of pathologizing her appropriate behavior maybe you need to address the bullying/pre-bullying behavior she is reacting to. Unfortunately some of that "bad" behavior was just thought of as "typical" behavior for the age, albeit unwanted and inappropriate. When I pointed it out this way the school folks had to agree that yes the bullying behaviors SHOULD be addressed and that they were inappropriate. And yes DD was making an appropriate decision to distance herself from it. But we didn't get there until after it was labeled as a "social/emotional" issue for her and I pushed back.

It bugs the heck out of me that any out of the box behavior HAS to be seen as wrong or bad. Yes sometimes these quirks need to be addressed because they indicate an underlying issue. But our out of the box kids need adults to see beyond the labels that they are given. Presumptions, assumptions and looking for problems where they don't exist make their already difficult roads even harder. They really don't need that.

Yes, to all of this.

My ds has had a hard time understanding why his peers would act in an aggressive or mean way. This aggression was seen as typical boy behavior and ds was seen as the uncomfortable and often inconvenient outlier.

His skipping a grade has mitigated some of his feeling isolated as has his increasing acceptance of others' behavior.

Thank you, Pemberley and KADmom. Yes, it's quite distressing actually. And it concerns me to have the input of these type of people/perspectives on such an important evaluation. I am not angry - I really don't think they have mal-intent but it does not change the fact that their prejudices/biases do have a mal-effect - serious consequences. I am submitting the observations made (at least most of them give an objective and clear picture) and I am going to discuss the teacher's basc being invalidated or treated with caution/skeptisism.

Basically, I think it comes down to this. My kid has some labels already and he can't physically write. He has dysgraphia probably DCD. His visual (and apparently auditory) sequencing is in the toilet so he is slow to transition and follow multistep directions. Despite that, he *is* gifted (he does have a pretty high VCI (140's) and very high reasoning - he is in the top 98%ile). And when taught properly he is performing/achieving he can be very ahead in his subjects. He'll even teach himself. So he's already complicated and an outlier in two distinct ways. He already triggers bias with his labels. However, the most problematic may be his creativity. The "creative shocks" make my kid weird. He has movies and stories come to him (particularly when he is bored but if he is engaged he "can hold them off for a bit") and he dictates them to me later. Unfortunately, when the creativity hits him it often seeps out physically - he moves, he paces, he talks to himself, he shakes his head. He will also tune out. If you ask him what he is imagining he can tell you the entire scene. He said he keeps these stories in his head until he can dictate them or type them out (which makes me wonder if they actually interfere with his working memory, etc) (unless he deems them not good enough.) People think it's weird - especially now that he's older. He has always had this. When he was younger than three, he had three imaginary friends he would talk to and play with. He make up elaborate stories of their adventures. This was eventually replaced at about 4 years old with creative shocks. He would act out the creativity with his action figures so again it didn't look as weird then - it was imaginative play. In preschool, he would want to sit and "write" stories all day long.

So, teachers think he's abnormal. Personally, I think he's just creative and quirky. His creative shocks don't really cause any problems (well, they are becoming a distraction to himself and he reports that they do distract him when he is suppose to be doing something else) . On the other hand, they are sort-of handy as when he is waiting for us to finish in restaurant or when we are waiting in line as he entertains himself with them. Just last night we were waiting for seat in restaurant - he didn't need anything to help him wait - he simply worked on one of his stories. They don't hurt anyone. If he is engaged they don't happen as much. And he can tell you exactly what he's doing and why - so it's not like he is seizing or like a tourettes thing. I assume he will eventually internalize this process completely. Even though he seems so weird but I struggle with pathologizing this behavior.

I think of the story of Gillian Lynne: http://blog.alexmaccaw.com/heres-to-the-misfits

I think of the talk that Elizabeth Gilbert gives on the creative process and how weird some of our most gifted writers creative process can look: http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html

I think of how Ruth Stone described her creative process (discussed in Gilbert's piece b/c she interviewed her). Stone said when she growing up she would feel and hear a poem coming at her and when she felt it coming she knew she had to "run like hell" to the house to get a paper and pencil. She said if she weren't fast enough at times and she about to miss it, she could sometimes "grab the poem by its tail and she would pull it backwards and then poem would come onto the page perfectly backwards from the last word to the first.

BUT DS looks weird when he is getting creative shocks. No other kid that we know does this. So, maybe this is a pathology? It's certainly not quite normal.

And so, yes, "Not every quirk has to be seen as a problem. Sometimes a quirk is just a quirk - you don't need to pathologize it." And in fact, maybe it is indeed a special gift. But I keep hearing it's not - it's pathology and needs treatment. I don't know what to do and what to think.

I truly hope DS has a fulfilling creative career someday... I so want to see on some talk show someday talking about how weird he looked as a kid and how his parents didn't care - they always believed in him. At least then I will finally know I did the right thing.

As a writer I can tell you there is definitely a physical aspect to the creative process and also its various blocks. This is amazing that he is so aware of his own process at such a young age. Crossing fingers that this will get nourished as he goes through the minefield of education and people who don't understand. Again, he's very fortunate to have such on-the-ball parents for advocates. I hope he's blessed with nurturing teachers as well.

And that Elizabeth Gilbert TED talk is a personal favorite.

Irena your last post made me think of 2 things. Maybe at least one will help.

When DD was little she had the most amazing preschool teacher. She was in a lab program at the local high school. No predetermined tasks, no "samples" to copy. Everything was purely child driven. Her last year in the program she would go in every day and "write", direct and star in a play. Every day. She would dictate the story, cast it with her classmates and they performed it before dismissal. She used all of her strengths and was the happiest she had ever been in her life. When she started real school this avenue of expression was closed off. She couldn't write thoughts down and there was no room for free expression. Now that she is in a really good out of district placement she is back to having the freedom to explore what she wants through 1:1 enrichment. She also is radically accelerated for her reading comprehension strengths (5 grade levels ahead). I can't tell you how much calmer, more confident and happy she is. She is now involved with a musical theater company and in rehearsal for her 5th real musical production. She will still occasionally come up with a play idea but only occasionally. It is also much less frequent that she bursts into song or starts to dance either to a tune in her head or one she she hears. That tells me that these were in some way coping mechanisms and she no longer needs them since she has a good school placement.

The other thought I had for you was about my DH. He is an artist and art professor. Over the years I know when he has struck upon what is going to be a new, very successful series of work because he enters "the zone". He disappears into his studio and barely emerges for days at a time. He prefers a windowless room because he has no concept of day or night when this happens. I periodically go in with food (always simple hand held items like sandwiches or bagels because I don't think he would even be able to handle a knife and fork when he gets like this.) He eats them totally mindlessly never taking his eyes off the piece he is working on. This goes for days at a time. No sleep. No breaks. No rational conversation. Does it seem strange to an outsider? You betcha. Is it something to be concerned about? Nope.

I think your DS will have to learn to contain his impulses and learn to compartmentalize his creativity but that will come with maturity. Yes it will seem weird to others but I think you already understand and accept that. I would say that unless/until a qualified professional tells you this is a symptom of a serious mental health issue you need to stick with your gut. And no, I personally do not consider a mainstream 2nd grade teacher to be a qualified expert on this.

Thanks Pemberley, KADmom and Master of None. Your posts really helped me feel supported and while no one really knows the answer, at least here I feel like people really 'get' the mild "weirdness" (or shall we say ("atypicality") that often accompanies creativity and giftedness. Thank you.

Your ds sounds awesome. xo