Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Need advice :extended math selection

Dear Parents-
Hope you can advice me on the right approach here. My daughter is in 4th grade with a MAP math score of 252. She has been consistently in 99th percentile from 1st grade and also in Stanford achievement test. She also participates in several gifted programs in the area outside of school. She is bored with the current school curriculum and is really not motivated. In our school, the gifted Math lessons starts at 4th grade and we were really looking forward to it. Now the problem, she was disqualified in the pre-test for the 1st unit because she didn't explain the answers correctly(answers are all correct). 75% is qualification for 'Extends' and she got 70. Now I am wondering how the teacher pre-test assessment vs standard test like MAP match up.Every other tests she has taken in school is near 90%.

I truly believe there is something wrong with the class assessment or there is some politics- Is this even possible in this country ??Please share your thoughts.Both us parents came to US to attend grad school so not much idea about the elementary school system although we are from Math background and can measure our kids skills well. Finally after 25 emails and several phone calls, I got a 15 min appointment with the teacher and I am meeting with her next week to see if there is any appeal process to this- the teacher seems to be really rude and is cutting us off about reviewing the tests and when we try to get a statistics on how many kids got qualified in school or district or class level - this is just to gauge the selection criteria eg, 25 students out of 100 4th graders got it it doesn't make sense to know that she with this high MAP was not in the top 25%. Anyone had any similar experience ? Is it worth a fight with the Principal/Board/superintendent etc ? I believe being a parent I need to get the max benefit offered by the public school system and we have to fight for our kids if they really deserve it. In this case I know that he needs to be properly motivated in school- she was so looking forward to it(Most of her dinner table conversation ends as "Next year I will be so happy to learn something new through extended math). Worried and disappointed now - Please let me know if you had a similar situation and advice on what is best to do (Ignore this and find other outside motivations or fight for this) ??
Waiting for your reply

Ahh, "show your work" hits again. If she got all the answers correct, then I would be in there arguing that. It's not like it was homework, where she could have asked someone for the answer or looked it up online or in the back of the book. It's a test, which presumably was given in front of a teacher, so if she got the answers right, she obviously knows how to do the problems. She may not do it the same way as what they want in the explanation -- which is a good reason to let her take the class, so she can learn how THEY want things done as well as move ahead.

I can practically guarantee you that 252 MAP score in 4th grade is one of the best in the school, not just top 25%. It would still be above 99th percentile for 6th grade.

Some may say this not cultural bias, but a parent's propensity to exclude themselves Vs. being willing to learn the system. Examples of learning the system may include bonding with other parents, willingness to do the research necessary, and viewing interactions with the school not as "fights" but as a mutual learning process in which parents can learn the process and also share what they have observed and learned through research (type of work child self-selects, what other schools may be doing that could be considered for implementation in your school, etc).

indigo--It's harder to learn the system when you have a language barrier/cultural barrier! I imagine myself trying to advocate for my child in another country's education system, and--wow.

paa, did she lose all the points for not showing her work?

"Showing work" in elementary school is just ritualized busywork. The mathematics is way too simple for for there to be anything uncontrived to show. It's like asking someone to walk one step but to show their steps.

Your daughter's other test scores are very high, so those alone should be allowed to be enough to qualify.

So true!

paa, have you seen a copy of the test and your dd's answers? I'd ask to see if if you haven't. It sounds like a pre-test that checks to see what your child already knows out of the material that will be taught in the upcoming unit. I can see, in our school district, that it would be possible for a child to have scored above 90% on the state assessment math test yet not score that high on a pre-test for upcoming work, because the state test is testing what has already been taught. I'm not familiar with the tests you've listed though, so that may not be the case with your dd's testing.

The reason that it's important to see the actual test and your dd's answers is to be able to tell if she really did work the questions incorrectly or if she made "silly" mistakes. My ds' school used pretests during 4h/5th grade, when he was working ahead in 6th grade and higher math at home, yet he routinely missed questions on the school's pretests by doing things like dropping signs, reversing pairs of numbers before adding etc. It was clear from how he worked the problems, however, that he knew what he was doing -so if you find evidence like that, you can use it to advocate that the score isn't accurately representing your dd's knowledge.

Best wishes,

polarbear

So true!

paa, have you seen a copy of the test and your dd's answers? I'd ask to see if if you haven't. It sounds like a pre-test that checks to see what your child already knows out of the material that will be taught in the upcoming unit. I can see, in our school district, that it would be possible for a child to have scored above 90% on the state assessment math test yet not score that high on a pre-test for upcoming work, because the state test is testing what has already been taught. I don't have experience with MAPs testing except for knowing that the score you've posted is really high and that it tests ahead of grade level (I think), so that may not be the case with your dd's testing.

There are several reasons that it's important to see the actual test and your dd's answers. First reason is to see the types of questions that were asked so that you know for sure that she really does know the material. The most important reason is to be able to tell if she really did work the questions incorrectly or if she made "silly" mistakes. My ds' school used pretests during 4h/5th grade, when he was working ahead in 6th grade and higher math at home, yet he routinely missed questions on the school's pretests by doing things like dropping signs, reversing pairs of numbers before adding etc. He even did things on a few tests like skip an entire page because it stuck to the previous page when he was flipping through the test or it was the back of a page and he just didn't notice it. It was clear from how he worked the problems, however, that he knew what he was doing -so if you find evidence like that, you can use it to advocate that the score isn't accurately representing your dd's knowledge.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - another thing to ask - was the test timed? And ask your dd if she ran out of time before she'd had a chance to finish her work.

Agreed. However some may say this does not indicate a "bias", a prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair (credit: google).

A person or family chooses to be in a new culture and either accepts or rebuffs offers of friendship, information, etc. This may parallel the recent thread discussing whether there is a 'wrong personality' for advocating; Group consensus indicated some approaches may be more successful than others... and some individuals may be quicker to adopt the approaches recommended as successful.

Regarding gifted education, families in the "majority culture" are learning how the educational system (and various different GT programs/services) work, right alongside with families from other cultures. There is no sense of bias or prejudice as information, encouragement, and BTDT/YMMV anecdotes are shared freely with all, without regard to level of English, culture, ethnicity, or SES.

Having befriended and helped several new families, I see the positives and the opportunity.

A fervent "AMEN" to this sentiment.

Agreed! Based on information provided by the OP, the child did not achieve the cut score on the qualification test.

Agreed!

Agreed!


Some may say this is a universal experience, as it is not unique to those in a minority culture; Many "majority culture" students may err in instructions and many "majority culture" parents do not know the system.


Agreed. On the other hand, as you so eloquently stated earlier, "... if their parents talk to other parents in the school, they better understand the process. Which gives them better success in advocating." There are sayings such as "No man is an island", "Two heads are better than one", "It takes a village to raise a child" and many more which allude to strength in numbers. Parents join this forum to network; While parents here may share general information, parents in their own school may be helpful in illuminating their local system.


Agreed. When the child has not qualified by the test administered and parents would like another opportunity for their child to qualify, advocacy may come into play.

Agreed. However there is no evidence that the varied success of advocacy is due to "bias", but rather that some may choose to follow approaches which have been known to be well-received.

Agreed. The conversation went from a specific case (paa) to a generalization (examples in your district) to philosophical discussion of "bias", to whether having a different first language or culture meant one is facing "bias" in the system. I do not appreciate the creation of one lengthy rant-like quote from my various posts, removing the context of prompts to which I was replying.

Actually the OP twice used the word fight, presumably in regard to advocacy:


This conversation flowed naturally from the OP raising the question of whether "politics" was at play. This is an important conversation to have: parents of gifted kids tend to suffer the same difficulties everywhere; There is not a separate tier of gifted services for "majority culture" as "bias" would imply. Other than that one word, +1 on your post.