Dear Parents-
Hope you can advice me on the right approach here. My daughter is in 4th grade with a MAP math score of 252. She has been consistently in 99th percentile from 1st grade and also in Stanford achievement test. She also participates in several gifted programs in the area outside of school. She is bored with the current school curriculum and is really not motivated. In our school, the gifted Math lessons starts at 4th grade and we were really looking forward to it. Now the problem, she was disqualified in the pre-test for the 1st unit because she didn't explain the answers correctly(answers are all correct). 75% is qualification for 'Extends' and she got 70. Now I am wondering how the teacher pre-test assessment vs standard test like MAP match up.Every other tests she has taken in school is near 90%.

I truly believe there is something wrong with the class assessment or there is some politics- Is this even possible in this country ??Please share your thoughts.Both us parents came to US to attend grad school so not much idea about the elementary school system although we are from Math background and can measure our kids skills well. Finally after 25 emails and several phone calls, I got a 15 min appointment with the teacher and I am meeting with her next week to see if there is any appeal process to this- the teacher seems to be really rude and is cutting us off about reviewing the tests and when we try to get a statistics on how many kids got qualified in school or district or class level - this is just to gauge the selection criteria eg, 25 students out of 100 4th graders got it it doesn't make sense to know that she with this high MAP was not in the top 25%. Anyone had any similar experience ? Is it worth a fight with the Principal/Board/superintendent etc ? I believe being a parent I need to get the max benefit offered by the public school system and we have to fight for our kids if they really deserve it. In this case I know that he needs to be properly motivated in school- she was so looking forward to it(Most of her dinner table conversation ends as "Next year I will be so happy to learn something new through extended math). Worried and disappointed now - Please let me know if you had a similar situation and advice on what is best to do (Ignore this and find other outside motivations or fight for this) ??
Waiting for your reply

Ahh, "show your work" hits again. If she got all the answers correct, then I would be in there arguing that. It's not like it was homework, where she could have asked someone for the answer or looked it up online or in the back of the book. It's a test, which presumably was given in front of a teacher, so if she got the answers right, she obviously knows how to do the problems. She may not do it the same way as what they want in the explanation -- which is a good reason to let her take the class, so she can learn how THEY want things done as well as move ahead.

I can practically guarantee you that 252 MAP score in 4th grade is one of the best in the school, not just top 25%. It would still be above 99th percentile for 6th grade.

Some may say this not cultural bias, but a parent's propensity to exclude themselves Vs. being willing to learn the system. Examples of learning the system may include bonding with other parents, willingness to do the research necessary, and viewing interactions with the school not as "fights" but as a mutual learning process in which parents can learn the process and also share what they have observed and learned through research (type of work child self-selects, what other schools may be doing that could be considered for implementation in your school, etc).

indigo--It's harder to learn the system when you have a language barrier/cultural barrier! I imagine myself trying to advocate for my child in another country's education system, and--wow.

paa, did she lose all the points for not showing her work?

"Showing work" in elementary school is just ritualized busywork. The mathematics is way too simple for for there to be anything uncontrived to show. It's like asking someone to walk one step but to show their steps.

Your daughter's other test scores are very high, so those alone should be allowed to be enough to qualify.

So true!

paa, have you seen a copy of the test and your dd's answers? I'd ask to see if if you haven't. It sounds like a pre-test that checks to see what your child already knows out of the material that will be taught in the upcoming unit. I can see, in our school district, that it would be possible for a child to have scored above 90% on the state assessment math test yet not score that high on a pre-test for upcoming work, because the state test is testing what has already been taught. I'm not familiar with the tests you've listed though, so that may not be the case with your dd's testing.

The reason that it's important to see the actual test and your dd's answers is to be able to tell if she really did work the questions incorrectly or if she made "silly" mistakes. My ds' school used pretests during 4h/5th grade, when he was working ahead in 6th grade and higher math at home, yet he routinely missed questions on the school's pretests by doing things like dropping signs, reversing pairs of numbers before adding etc. It was clear from how he worked the problems, however, that he knew what he was doing -so if you find evidence like that, you can use it to advocate that the score isn't accurately representing your dd's knowledge.

Best wishes,

polarbear

So true!

paa, have you seen a copy of the test and your dd's answers? I'd ask to see if if you haven't. It sounds like a pre-test that checks to see what your child already knows out of the material that will be taught in the upcoming unit. I can see, in our school district, that it would be possible for a child to have scored above 90% on the state assessment math test yet not score that high on a pre-test for upcoming work, because the state test is testing what has already been taught. I don't have experience with MAPs testing except for knowing that the score you've posted is really high and that it tests ahead of grade level (I think), so that may not be the case with your dd's testing.

There are several reasons that it's important to see the actual test and your dd's answers. First reason is to see the types of questions that were asked so that you know for sure that she really does know the material. The most important reason is to be able to tell if she really did work the questions incorrectly or if she made "silly" mistakes. My ds' school used pretests during 4h/5th grade, when he was working ahead in 6th grade and higher math at home, yet he routinely missed questions on the school's pretests by doing things like dropping signs, reversing pairs of numbers before adding etc. He even did things on a few tests like skip an entire page because it stuck to the previous page when he was flipping through the test or it was the back of a page and he just didn't notice it. It was clear from how he worked the problems, however, that he knew what he was doing -so if you find evidence like that, you can use it to advocate that the score isn't accurately representing your dd's knowledge.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - another thing to ask - was the test timed? And ask your dd if she ran out of time before she'd had a chance to finish her work.

Agreed. However some may say this does not indicate a "bias", a prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair (credit: google).

A person or family chooses to be in a new culture and either accepts or rebuffs offers of friendship, information, etc. This may parallel the recent thread discussing whether there is a 'wrong personality' for advocating; Group consensus indicated some approaches may be more successful than others... and some individuals may be quicker to adopt the approaches recommended as successful.

Regarding gifted education, families in the "majority culture" are learning how the educational system (and various different GT programs/services) work, right alongside with families from other cultures. There is no sense of bias or prejudice as information, encouragement, and BTDT/YMMV anecdotes are shared freely with all, without regard to level of English, culture, ethnicity, or SES.

Having befriended and helped several new families, I see the positives and the opportunity.

A fervent "AMEN" to this sentiment.

Agreed! Based on information provided by the OP, the child did not achieve the cut score on the qualification test.

Agreed!

Agreed!


Some may say this is a universal experience, as it is not unique to those in a minority culture; Many "majority culture" students may err in instructions and many "majority culture" parents do not know the system.


Agreed. On the other hand, as you so eloquently stated earlier, "... if their parents talk to other parents in the school, they better understand the process. Which gives them better success in advocating." There are sayings such as "No man is an island", "Two heads are better than one", "It takes a village to raise a child" and many more which allude to strength in numbers. Parents join this forum to network; While parents here may share general information, parents in their own school may be helpful in illuminating their local system.


Agreed. When the child has not qualified by the test administered and parents would like another opportunity for their child to qualify, advocacy may come into play.

Agreed. However there is no evidence that the varied success of advocacy is due to "bias", but rather that some may choose to follow approaches which have been known to be well-received.

Agreed. The conversation went from a specific case (paa) to a generalization (examples in your district) to philosophical discussion of "bias", to whether having a different first language or culture meant one is facing "bias" in the system. I do not appreciate the creation of one lengthy rant-like quote from my various posts, removing the context of prompts to which I was replying.

Actually the OP twice used the word fight, presumably in regard to advocacy:


This conversation flowed naturally from the OP raising the question of whether "politics" was at play. This is an important conversation to have: parents of gifted kids tend to suffer the same difficulties everywhere; There is not a separate tier of gifted services for "majority culture" as "bias" would imply. Other than that one word, +1 on your post.

I guess the teacher is fending off heaps of upset parents. But it does seem odd given her previous marks that she wouldn't be in the top quarter. Are you friendly with the teacher she had last year? If so you may be able to approach him in a sort of - I'm confused, would you have expected her to qualify etc?

But the crucial thing is has she been disqualified for just this unit or the whole year. If it is just the unit get hold of the test and help her work outhow to do better next time.

Well, it does appear odd that she did not score in the top 25% (25 out of 100 students) given her other standardized test scores. However, unless there is a history of successful appeals, this may be ifficult to appeal because the school is using a clear numerical cutoff (75%). Is your DD strong in the verbal areas as well or is there a language barrier? If this unit is short (less than 3 weeks), I would probably focused on getting a copy of her test and figuring out why she scored so low and how to avoid the result for the next unit. If this will keep your DD out for a long time, I would bring all the test scores you have and mentioned your math backgrounds and pushed to get your DD into the math lessons, even if you have to go up to the principal.

Agreed. Some of the qualification criteria I'm familiar with are like the Olympics... a person can be known as the best but turn in a less than stellar performance on the qualifier, then is out.

This is not a statement you are able to make about the entire country. In some places and in some schools, parents who are not from the majority culture (this can mean a lot of things) will have a more difficult time advocating for their child. They may not know how to small-talk a teacher in the culturally accepted way, ask the right questions, or network with the right parents to find out what they really need to know. They may simply not be privy to certain networks of knowledge at all.

In my community, there is a charter school that never announces the fact that in order to be let in, you MUST sign up to tour the school months in advance of their lottery. Tours accept a limited number of particpants and only run certain times of the year. You have to know people who will tell you that, or you have to be sufficiently motivated to call the school almost a year before your child would enroll. This automatically excludes many people who are not highly motivated and/or "in the know" about the school. This school has very low minority and foreign student enrollment.

The examples you give, while unfortunate, also are experienced by "majority culture" parents who are not in the field of education, did not themselves attend public schools and/or participate in gifted programs, may be new to a neighborhood, etc. Therefore, these are not evidence of "bias".

Some may say this sounds like an apples-and-oranges comparison:
1) If upon a free phone call to the school, the same information is given to all who may call, then the process may seem fair and equal, not "biased". It seems reasonable that a school may wish to work with parents who've done their homework and have criteria in mind to ensure a good "fit", as compared with a parent looking for anything that is "free" therefore may become disappointed and prove costly (even to the degree of closing a school).
2) On the other hand, if the school accepts government funding and you believe transparency is an issue, you may wish to bring that forward and advocate in a manner designed to bring about change. What change would you envision? Possibly on a webpage about admissions, sharing that consideration for the lottery is given to families on a first-come-first-served basis, therefore the school advises interested families to register in advance for a tour? Or...?
3) Some may say that when we come across something that may not seem right, ethical, best practice, we may choose to use our first amendment rights to speak up for the betterment of the society. There is a saying that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Indigo, I'm working in my community about this particular issue. I also shared my opinion about this practice when my child attended the school in question. So no need for the lecture.

But even if none of this were true, I certainly feel it's okay to voice my opinion that there are issues of inequity in how schools operate in my communuity regardless of whether I am advocating at this particular moment.


I said " parents who are not from the majority culture (this can mean a lot of things)." In the case of this school (not a gifted school, FTR) the school wants to keep recruiting parents who are "their kind of parents" by word of mouth. How best to do this? Make it so you can't figure out how to get a spot unless you know someone who goes there. Don't do any outreach, or advertise the school or how to get in. In fact, this excludes a lot of families, but it especially affects certain groups.

As to your point #1, I disagree. Most parents cannot be expected to realize that to enroll their child in a public school in September, they must call the school the previous December to schedule a tour. Yes, the same information is given once you call--but the information that YOU MUST CALL IN DECEMBER is not disseminated to the community in any way.

Then we are like-minded.


And it's okay for some to quote common sayings, which may encourage, or not.


Once a parent calls... if they miss this year's deadline there's always next year? Entry is by lottery because demand exceeds capacity? Not ideal, but good to know you are addressing their process so that in the future information will be available to all interested families on a timely basis (such as on their website) for those parents not interested to make a phonecall.

"if they miss this year's deadline there's always next year?"

I don't know about all charter schools but in our area if you don't get in K your chances of getting the 10 spots that open up for any grade after that are very slim. You have one shot at getting in where there are any odds at all (K) after that it is a complete long shot (and if someone gets a kid in during the K lottery and they have an older sibling and want the spot there is one less spot for the 2nd grade lottery because siblings have priority before the lottery pull for the upper grades).

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. We went and checked the pretest paper with the teacher. There was a question which the teacher marked wrong which we challenged since teacher marked it as 'below' which made her disqualified. I am still a bit furious about the teachers decision- let me know what you think. Q was to measure understanding of remainders.The question: there are 43 cups of juice to be divided among guests , each having 3 cups. How many guests can you serve? DD wrote as follows: "I will serve 15 guests. The last person will get only 1 cup but a least he will get something and be happy !!" (then she drew a smiley face next to it )she was trying to be funny and I am glad my kid has a sense of humor. Do you really think she didn't know about remainders ??? We asked the teacher to reconsider and also talked through with the principal. Haven't heard back anything. Their argument is that she should have written " 14 guest and there will be 1 cup left over".
This is my 4th grader thinking outside the box and facing the consequences
thanks again.
-Paa

It's clear your DD understood. The teacher is being rigid and pedantic.

Wow, a mathematician and a philanthropist! IMO this child clearly knew remainders and may also have been exhibiting the gifted characteristic described in this link to a SENG article:
http://www.sengifted.org/archives/articles/identity-development-in-gifted-children-moral-sensitivity

Some may wish to print this article and highlight key points for possible future discussions with teachers following experiences which may bring these characteristics to the forefront, raising awareness of the need for understanding, acceptance, and affirmation of these positive traits.

Well really they should have asked how many full servings will there be and is there any left fro the host or something. You might want to explain the "simplest solution is most likely correct" criteria but it does seem silly as she clearly understands.

A point on majority culture - in some schools it is how many generations have attended, in some wealth, in some race, in some religion. There always is a majority culture and an outsider needs to get an in somehow.

Also if a school is government funded (as in the example another poster listed) then a reasonable person would accept a trasparent system with the tours/open days publically advertised and held and therefore may not think to ring up to book a tour a year in advance - this doesn't mean they don't care, just they don't have a contact in "the know".

The words in quotations which you attributed to me, without context provided, where are they sourced from?
Is this possibly a case of what was said differs from what was heard?

The intent is to show possible paths through the acknowledged difficulties, also based on years of experience.

To some ears, "working the system" may sound like "gaming the system", not like "knowing how the system works". That said, I've agreed that many parents are struggling to learn how the system works and suggested that there is strength in numbers, bonding with local parents may help learn their local system.

Is this possibly a case of what was said differs from what was heard?

Agreed! I have posted elsewhere about this... 50 years of gifted ed and not much has improved regarding the actual experiences of gifted pupils and their families, who are finding the same ruts in the road. That having been said, we are a government of the people, by the people and for the people, and as such we the people are empowered to make changes in how our government schools can best serve our population, within the constraints of time, budget, space, etc.


Politics was the word used by the OP, bias was a word introduced by another poster in the midst of a very thoughtful response and actually in regard to their own district. It is a word which can be polarizing, akin to allegations and accusations, even when intended to invoke our highest selves and serve as a reminder to be open-minded and consider every view.


Agreed. I believe I posted a similar sentiment.

Personally I prefer to show possible paths through the acknowledged difficulties.

Personally I prefer to show possible paths through the acknowledged difficulties.

Agreed! This would really be a great way to present that word problem. It would also appeal to the humanitarian side of children with that characteristic.

Hopefully the culture is fluid and welcoming and open minded, treating all human beings with impartiality.

Agreed. I believe that in reply to the person who stated that parents needed to be "highly motivated" or have contacts, I earlier posted that if transparency was an issue possibly they could advocate for the selection criteria information (including the booking of school tours by the cutoff date) to be made known, such as on the school website.