I have to vent here. Since preschool I have had to deal with mothers taking their daughters when they went for their manicures and pedicures and got their daughters' nails painted. Although DD went to the Bibbidi Bobbidi boutigue at 4 and got hair and makeup and nails done, it was a once in a big while thing. They gave you the makeup which I secretly threw out after a while, after it was on a high shelf.

Last week we went to a friend's house, they have a daughter turning 6 also and a 3 year old. They had gone to one of those cheap jewellery outlets and got make up kits and got one for DD. They all played with the makeup, including their 3 year old, putting on eye shadow.

We happened to be at a dinner party yesterday with these same people and I had a discussion with the hostess about what DD would want for birthday present, she asked about makeup and I said I do not allow it. And then we had a long discussion about letting them be kids.

We have huge discussions here about accelerating our kids academically but I really think they do not have to grow up too fast. If you let them have make up now (and they insist that it is not to wear out) but what happens in 2 years? Are they going to sneak it out in their backpacks?

Any support here on what to do?

Ren

I don't think I can offer any opinion here. I do remember I wasn't allowed to wear makeup till I was 16, but I really didn't have a big interest in it. I felt uncomfortable with it on.

I think it is completely okay to have your own rules for your own kids!

It really doesn't matter what others think. That is one of the great things about being parenting! We have many rules in our house that are different from those at DD's friends' houses. We don't even enter into discussions about them... it just is what it is. If you do not feel comfortable with make-up at a young age, do not feel like you have to justify it to anyone.

My DD loves to play dress-up and has a make-up kit that we consider part of that game. Our rule is that it all gets washed off after and make-up is never worn outside of the house. For her, it is just part of the dress-up experience. If she had a friend who was not allowed to wear make-up, I would certainly tuck it away when they were over with no questions asked.

I think it's essential to have your own rules for your own kids, and the sooner they get used to it - the better! Welcome these opportunities for your DD to see your stubborn side.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Being a parent who has taken my daughter for Mani and Pedi since she was 2 I really don't see a problem with it. It is mommy and daughter time. My daughter is also allowed to wear lip gloss. I would say that she never wears it outside of the house but she does but usually all around her lips... Really is lovely. She really isn't all that into the lip gloss anymore and when she does put it on she doesn't put much on compared to how she used to.

As for other makeup... We don't allow it but we have had a few cases where we have made exceptions. IE. B-day party for princess dress up and the older girls put some make up on them and ballet for performances.

Does this make my child want the makeup more? Absolutely not. In fact, she hardly asks for anything now. I haven't taken her to have her nails done in at least 9 months but have painted them myself a few times. Have I robbed her of her childhood? Hahaha the child who is full of imagination and creativity .... No.

I understand that every parent has their own style and I would never attempt to push any parent into allowing their child makeup or nail polish and I must admit I was shocked they included makeup at a party.... I certainly wouldn't BUT in the same fashion please don't jump to conclusions on your end.

I totally support your choosing what you want for your child (and if you can't impose your aesthetic values on your small child, when can you? ) But I just wanted to respond to this bit.


I don't think allowing it now makes it escalate later. If they want to sneak, they'll sneak, whether they take it from their own house or borrow it from their friends. And I suspect that kids are probably less likely to go sneaking it later if it wasn't treated as a forbidden fruit when they were younger. Kind of like how French kids who are allowed to drink small amounts of wine don't tend go binge drinking when they get older like American kids do.

Having said that, I plan on having draconian policies against Barbie, makeup, and chewing-gum in my house as Hanni gets older!

Not jumping to any conclusions. I just attended a lecture a few years ago put on by the Parents' League and another parent group in NYC. They brought in this Harvard Professor who specializes in teens.

She discussed the whole shortening the band of childhood, which shortened the band of other experiences which, in her opinion and research has led to the middle school sexual experience, mostly friends with benefits. I have yet to meet a parent who thinks it will be their kid who goes that way because of their actions. I do not know what I can do or can't do to prevent or divert her from this type of experiences, but she stressed about doing things that make them older than they are, like make-up.

Giving them make up is different than when kids got into mommy's lipstick. And if they lose interest, what will they be interested in when they are 10?

I am not the expert, and I do set my own rules, but was shocked when she received this make up kit as a gift? And they all went off to play teenagers, put make up on and pretend they had boyfriends.

I did let her have make up for ballet recitals but it was for performing, not to look better. I hate that she thinks she isn't beautiful enough that she needs make up at 5 which is the message.

She asked me why she can't get her ears pierced since this girl and this girl and this girl have pierced ears. I won't say what I told her but she won't be wanting to wear make up or get ears pierced anytime soon.

She had her first ballet class for a Technique class and the teacher told her to take her skirt off (a ballet skirt), not allowed until she earns it. And that they have to have a neat bun, told us to get bobby pins and nets (went to CVS and couldn't find a net) but I welcome the discipline. I welcome you have to earn the skirt. And that is how I want make up to be, a stage to grows up to, not applied to her because I think it is cute. I don't want a Jon Benet kid.

Ren

On chewing gum, because I hate the dentist and cavities. I prohibited gum until she was 5 and we just couldn't, too many friends were doing but she did ask first, we got gum.

After a few weeks of having it, not really asking for it, she never asks. And she told me today she really doesn't like gum. She hasn't had a cavity yet, and she isn't walking around chewing that gum which is so unattractive.

So forbidding isn't always sneaked.

Ren

For those who are strong of stomach, a very nuanced exploration of the various social pressures on young girls in regards to 'growing up too fast' can be found here:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103894

You may want to wait until the children are out of the house. Of course in our home, I only got hooked on South Park because I was not willing for DS to watch them alone.
Love and More Love,
Grinity

My daughter is almost 20, and when she was 3 the phone calls starting rolling in with requests from local modeling studios to have my daughter model, try out for TV commercials, etc. I said no. I had one mother yell at me because of my refusal to let my daughter participate and for the opportunities I was keeping her from, but it was a choice I made as her mother because I thought that it was best for her as an individual.

She discovered climbing a few years later and escaped the whole dieting-and-oh-dear-do-I-look-fat drama of mid-school tween girls. She had come to see her body as a tool for her sport and ate like a horse, exercised hard, and wouldn't eat or drink anything that might hold her back physically in her sport. I am certain that this confidence with her body saved us a lot of heartache as she maneuvered those terribly difficult years.

She didn't ask to start wearing makeup until mid-school, and it was such a welcome change from her tomboy baggy t-shirts that I agreed and helped her learn how to wear it appropriately. I didn't make it a big deal, and she transitioned well into a young lady.

I'm not sorry I prevented some opportunities or closed some doors when she was young. I wanted to let her have a normal childhood, and for my daughter it was the right choice. I am in no way passing judgment on mothers who choose the modeling, child acting route, because every child is different and the dynamic of every family is different. But for my daughter, I wanted to preserve her childhood as long as possible.

Thanks for the back up. For reference, there is that book, "So Sexy, So Soon" that is out there talking about my fears.

The most scary thing they mention is that 1 in 3 girls will experience sexual abuse, mostly by friend of relative, because they thought "they wanted it" or "they liked it", they think is the result of making our little girls into more sexualized objects. They are not pretty enough without makeup, they have to make themselves "hotter"... for whom? Who are they wearing the make up for? Unless you keep looking in the mirror, you don't see it.

Saw Bobbi Brown interviewed on the news recently. She was asked what do you do when you wake up and feel yukky. Her reply: "go exercise". Not to put some lipstick on or concealer.

Especially with that beautiful 5 year old skin. It is so soft and flawless and her green eyes would be hidden with stupid shadow.

They have push up bras and thong panties for 7 year olds now. Is that next? If they have already done the make up thing.

Ren

Same here in that we had many an offer for commercial work but out and out refused for the same reasons of not wanting DD to lose her childhood. We still get comments and offers but would never consider putting my child down that path.

I was glad to see this article touched on the impact advertising is having on our kids:
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/03/29/generation-diva.html
The Hurried Child by David Elkind, is well worth reading on this subject. The author clearly distinguishes being hurried from accelerating to meet intellectual abilities.
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/elkind.htm
I limit my dauthers' exposure to ads and shows like Hannah Montana to keep this at bay. Of course this makes them even more asynchronous compared to their peers. I'm amazed to see parents rail about schools expecting too much from young kids but are fine with them watching what are essentially pre-teen soap operas.

At 6 my DD was invited to a girl's clothing store birthday party. The plan was the girls would get makeup done and bring some home in a gift bag. I declined the offer. I felt this was too commercial of a place for a party and rushing makeup. My DD had no problem with my decision and seemed to understand. I really expected her to not understand, but once again she impressed me with her maturity.

Ren -

1st, the disclaimers:
1. I have a ds6 not a dd6, so I am not in your shoes.
2. I was a tomboy all the way and don't know what I would do with a "girly girl" (no offense intented to anyone)

OK, now the comments. I can see how the "growing up fast" is worrisome. Especially for girls.

In your post you mentioned fear a few times.

I have read elsewhere (and her too) that parenting from a place of fear can be limiting for parent and child.

so maybe multiple approaces are needed?
1. how to deal with your fears
2. how to help your daughter deal with make-up and adult trappings
3. more?

what do you think?

Wren, my girls are a little older than yours (8 & 10). I think that you should stick to your guns. I have limited our kids to wearing makeup for performances (dance and theatre). I do allow them to get make up at parties if that is the theme but make it clear that it is just for parties. I do let them play with body crayons but these tend to be used more for drawing pictures like face paints. Over the years, I have prohibited certain toys that I found offensive, like the Brats dolls that were popular a few years ago. I've always explained my reasons to them, i.e. the Brats dress like prostitutes. We've also had lots of discussions about tattoos and body piercing (Don't you think that "Tempting" tattoo will seem silly when she's 80?) we've talked about how ridiculous it is for some people in their classes to be "dating" at this point. I have told them that I don't know anyone who married someone who they met in high school, let alone grade school. My girls still think that boys are gross and squeal with disgust if there is even chaste kissing in a movie. Have my boundaries helped with this? who knows but I have no regrets.

Maybe that's a regional thing? My parents met in junior high. I know lots of people who met in high school and married (with varying degrees of success, but that's true of people who met later in life).

I personally am not a fan of grade-school "going steady," or permanent body modifications (including ear piercing and other mainstream body-mods) to the bodies of people who aren't competent to give truly informed consent, or Bratz. But having grown up as the kid who was expected to conform to my parents' (extremely non-mainstream) norms, rather than my peer's norms, for my own kid, I permit a great deal in the name of peer conformity.

That said, I was slightly appalled when my SIL took DD7 birthday shopping, and in addition to getting her nail polish (which I have no issue with), also asked if she was allowed to wear makeup "out of the house," because if she was, SIL would have gotten her some eye makeup.

I remembered this Denver Post article from a few years back and found it online. Here is the quote that stuck with me:

One of my daughters and I were riding the street car in Berlin, Germany, when I noticed we had entered an area where prostitutes solicit openly. My then 7-year-old daughter was enchanted by one of these women, who had very long hair and wore thigh-high vinyl boots. "Mommy," my daughter sighed reverently, "she's so pretty. She looks just like a Bratz doll."

Read more: Sending the wrong messages - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5447340#ixzz0zXwFyyJt

I feel like such a loser mom reading that everybody else is trying to subtly discourage this early activity. �Knowing �how his both parents were, he's more likely to be choosy and monogamous than promiscuous, but I will bet that he finds a girlfriend as a teenager that's going to be compatible with for a while and I think I know what's going to happen. �I'll bet nature follows it's course without Hannah Montana spelling it out for them. �But that's just my kid's genetic legacy.
��I have just been talking to the hubby that this is one of my biggest fears that my boy gets a girlfriend pregnant too young and cuts off so much opportunity for his future. �I told him he it's funny we were just talking about how much this worries me the other day and now it's being discussed here (kind of), but I wasn't joining this conversation because I don't have a daughter. �But if #2 turns out to be a daughter I think I'd be twice as fervent with my message, "protect yourself at all times, like a boxer". �

The other part about being victimized is �a whole different story. �I don't know about that. �Karate lessons and teaching them to run away and tell. �When they're older reminding them that no means no.

You make your choices/rules as parents and you do the best you can do. And if you are consistent, hopefully they will ingrain the message. I know I did with my mother ideas. She told me sex can be really good but a woman gets pregnant. So get through college and get a job and then have sex. And I did. Waited 2 weeks after I got that job, but it made sense to me and it was ingrained.

We keep teaching DD, who is now 5 turning 6, that tattoos are such bad art that no one would hang it on their walls, yet people put it on their skins forever. What kind of thinking is that? Hopefully we will not go through another tattoo trend anytime soon.

And I hope people stop giving her make up.

Ren

You reminded me of what my Mother-in-Law, who had three boys, told me some years ago. "If you have a daughter, at worst she can only get pregnant once every 10 months. I don't know when exactly it hit, but when the boys were young, I realized that on any given night once they were teenagers, they could all three get girls pregnant."

Raising kids is fraught with challenges and worries, and all we can do is define our own unique set of values, enforce rules that support those values, and explain why we've come to believe what we do so that our children do not think that we make arbitrary rules in a vacuum. When they do not understand why a rule protects them, it is so much easier to break it.

I agree about passing on the values, I just think how I've lived shows what my true values more than what I'd like to believe. �I mentioned it's more likely my kids will do what they might do within a childish "puppy love relationship" driven by desire than for them to be made promiscuous by outside pressure or the media. �And when they discover it they're going to like it a lot. �Is there a "passionate" OE (blushing and giggling). �At least I'm guessing that's more likely than the friends with benefits thing. �

��And I say what I think I'll do now, but who knows how I'll act when they become teenagers and this becomes real instead of theory. �Just thought I'd share what concerns me about my own family. �I'm more concerned about raging hormones and unplanned decisions than about movies and dolls influencing that certain undesirable career. �But I wouldn't let my hypothetical daughter dress however she wants if it's like that either.

I'll probably let the tinkerbell brand make up and nail polish. �That's if this one turns out to be a girl. �Well, and not a total tomboy. �The one I have now's a boy. �He's got a bowl cut that he asked for. �He's asked for a Mohawk next. �It's a shame because the bowlcut's just adorable on him. �But three-year old's supposed to be about exploring independence and defining structure and boundaries. �(according to some childhood psychology textbook I bought at Amazon). �

Yeah, besides that one consideration there's just pure aesthetics. �If you don't want your five year old wearing make-up she shouldn't be wearing make-up. � �
And really it sounds like you're so involved and doing so much with your daughter she won't miss out on a thing. �I read the things you post. �You want to give your little girl a whole world full of experiences.

Editing to add: �I'm biased. �My parents were unwed teenagers when I was born.�

You have my support.

If a child is going to sneak wearing makeup out of the house, they will sneak whether you have allowed none or some. Sneaking, whether makeup, alcohol, etc., is a result of peer pressure having more influence than the parent or the values the parent has tried to instill in the child. Your relationship with the child has to be stronger, and more valuable to the child than any peer relationship until the child has grown to be an independant person and responsible for their own choices.

How you build that relationship is up to you, but it has little to do with allowing no, or some, or unlimited makeup. I think staying consistant with your values and teaching those values to your child is important. Kids can smell hypocrisy a mile away, and that's a sure way to lose their respect.

My personal thoughts about makeup is it is used to make yourself attractive to the opposite gender. I know many on this thread have other reasons for wearing makeup, I'm just stating my opinion of makeup. For that reason, I only allowed makeup for our daughter once she had reached an age I thought was appropriate for dating. She has always used it tastefully.

I remember a playgroup DD was in when she was 2. They had lots of blocks of wood and wanted children to use their imagination, use a block of wood and pretend it is a phone etc.

It can be a little extreme but I remember as a child having 3 Barbies was a lot. You had a case of clothes for them and a car and a bedroom set. You were pretty complete. DD had Disney princess dolls (Barbie size) plus a bunch of Barbies, and 3 prince dolls, totaling at least 20 before she was 5. My friends and I had rejected clothes and shoes from our mothers when we wanted to play dress up, that was the norm. Now DD has had a closet of Disney costumes with matching shoes, crowns, other accessories. Perhaps the make up is one step further. But I also think putting that on young skin is not good. It is like getting face painting every week. But the concept, I admit, seems similar. It goes beyond pretend play and probably all of it is not good on a lot of levels.

Though dressing like a princess seems to have fallen by the wayside. The "magic" seems to have died somewhere between 4 to 5. But that worries me about the make up. It isn't about "dress-up", pretend, it is more reality based about using make-up, being really you, not Cinderella, and needing make up.

Luckily DD seems pretty OK with my reasoning and accepts my decision. The thing I find a little strange is that the mother who gave the make up doesn't wear it. Maybe on some occasion but we have gone out to dinner with them, socialized frequently since they bought a house at the beach. I also tried to arrange a trip on a pirate boat, these excursions that are great with kids are still young. They dress up, go out on the pirate boat, find treasure. DD had a great time. She could not commit and you had to book in advance. She didn't express real interest in something that her kids would have loved. We even offered to treat for the cost, which was not a lot. But buying make up is fast and easy than driving 8 miles to the harbor and sending them to their room to amuse themselves rather than 2.5 hours on the water in the summer air.

Now I digress and make assumptions and criticize so I should stop.

Ren

Wren,

My DD is now 6 and we've been having the same issues. She's a girly girl who loves to wear dresses and skirts. She thinks nail polish is great and is constantly asking why we won't let her get her ears pierced, wear high heels and make-up.

I'm okay with some things; lots of skirts, nail polish, jewelry. I'm not okay with others; shorts with words written across the butt, super skimpy swim suits, super high heels, make-up, etc. (Ear piercing is in the "you need to be old enough to be responsible for taking care of it yourself" category.)

When she asks why, I sometimes explain that those things are for people who are interested in having sex. She knows enough about sex to know that it's what causes babies to be made. (she's very interested in prenatal development and has been for years.) She also knows that even when she goes through puberty and may be physically capable of sex, it's "not a good plan". (As a side note, she asked about a 15 yo friend, "is he going through puberty now??")

Other times she tries to negotiate by bringing up the peer card, "Her Mom lets her do X." At that point I just answer with, "That's okay, she's not my daughter."

As a birthday gift, she was given her first Barbie this weekend (we've studiously avoided them 'til now). We've already talked about how ridiculous Barbie's heels are and that it's rather silly that she can't stand on her own.

I have no idea how long this fascination will last, but I want her to know that she can talk to me about things. I try to have an open dialogue about my reasons. Really, I can't control her. I have to give her the tools to make the right decisions for herself.

I think I'm just too cheap, lol! We have a salon here that does that type of thing ("Sweet and Sassy" - ugh, even the name is annoying) and more than anything, I wonder why you would pay that kind of money to get a child's nails painted, or hair done. For me (and again, maybe I'm just cheap)it's not so much about the nails as it is about the constant gifting/entertaining. It's about the kids who go to the 8th grade dance and want a limo and a professional updo. We aren't poor, but my kids get presents twice a year: Christmas and birthday. They get clothes if they need it. They don't whine when we walk into Target or get $200 jeans.
As far as the actual makeup, playing with it was pretty rare. I don't think they viewed makeup as a toy. They might paint their nails occasionally, or get a lip smacker, but not much more. They were allowed to pierce their ears in middle school, when I thought they were ready to take care of it. They were allowed $20 towards hair cuts. If they wanted to color their hair (they're both in college now) that was up to them, but it was their money. Beyond being "adult", it just seems too indulgent to be taking an elementary child for a manicure. Good grief - will kiddie facials be next? Kiddie massage? As far as how it affects them down the road, I think it really depends on the kid. One of my dds is a makeup maven (talented artist, so that might be it??) and one rarely uses it. One is a skimpier dresser, and one is very business like. When dd20 was in HS, she went on a mission trip to NYC, and she and a girlfriend bought thongs (yeah, not making this up - apparently in between helping the homeless, they went shopping). At the time,I threw it out. Now, I'd probably pick my battles. But I don't mind saying no, even if I am the only one.
Theresa