Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Need help choosing between two schools, please....

I've read about Mary Baldwin, it sounds wonderful!

I thought about having her do math through CTY afterschool. I talked with the Dr. who tested her at CTY and was told that they think that math is "detrimental" and that having her take it after a long school day would be seen as a punishment. So it's not just that they won't accelerate but that they are teaching "fuzzy" math.

Thanks!

Thanks so much, I appreciate it!

In her current math they drill, practice and have all kinds of great hands on projects to reinforce concepts. I wish she could have this math theacher through high school.

Looking at the research that has been done on this topic, I think EVERY girl is "at risk for the problems" in co-ed classrooms.

From Failing at Fairness: How America's School Cheat Girls : Girls are most often praised in brief exchanges with their teachers, while boys are engaged in conversation. In addition, the Sadkers found that smart boys get the most attention, and the smart girls get the least. This translates into a lack of confidence that follows young women into high school and college.

These are real issues. For every girl. Especially our smart girls, who tend to be so well adjusted that they just take it.

I haven't read the book, but I was a smart girl at an all-girls school...

The trouble is, while what you say about how teachers tend to interact with girls compared with boys rings true to me, it certainly doesn't follow that the problem goes away if the school is all-girls. Quite the contrary: you can end up with teachers who simply know no other way to interact with pupils and pupils who don't know there's an alternative. My experience was that, even though I was very strong indeed academically, I got almost no extension work in anything. Instead, I was encouraged to become more and more perfectionist. (Literally, I was told to practise writing neater integral signs.)

Although I'm sure my experience isn't universal and that there are wonderful all-girls schools, I do wonder, speculating wildly, whether such an approach might be a much bigger temptation for the staff in an all-girls school where the girls will accept it, than for staff in a mixed or all-boys' school where it would probably cause mass disobedience!

Personally I found the all-girls environment fine socially (and yet had no real difficulty with a mixed university environment), and I do appreciate that I never had to contend with a "girls don't like science" tradition. I would urge looking closely at what very academic girls actually do at the school, though.

I pulled DD out of school that had Latin, in favor of public that had Spanish and chess. So my vote is clear.

I also agree that although there are all those things about co-ed middle schools, you have to do your part as a parent. I do not think you are entirely free in all girls school. She may get other kinds of advances that are common in all girls colleges like Sarah Lawrence.

And since we are in CTY to provide accelerated math, I totally wish it was offered at school. To do it outside of school is such a pain. We just did the math exam, more than a month after she finished because our schedule was so full.

Ren

I can relate to this comment. I went to a single-sex Catholic high school populated by upper middle class white girls. Even though it was supposed to be very strong academically, I had very few classes that made me think (with the notable exceptions of my Chemistry and American History teachers who were godsends). I fell into the perfectionism trap big time. I had enough of a reputation in a small school full of "smart" girls as THE SMART GIRL that I never felt like I could make a mistake. The pressure to be perfect imposed by internal and external pressure was tremendous. Some of the teachers treated me like a well trained puppy who was expected to perform flawlessly on cue. Someone once described it as always being on the tightrope. In the absence of appropriate challenge, I created my own unhealthy ones. This also caused major problems when I went to university and could no longer maintain the "perfect" facade. I would be concerned that your DD will not be sufficiently challenged in the atmosphere that you describe, particularly in math.

In addition, due to the small size, there just wasn't the population to support some of the more advanced classes. I took physics during summer school and was frustrated that my calculus class didn't even cover enough to take the AB AP exam. I would ask the school what happens when your daughter has finished with what the school has to offer academically. Being a smart, bored teenager is never a good thing.

I don't know how I would have been different if I had gone to a co-ed school. People from my school still got into drugs, still dumbed themselves down for boys (just not in class), still got pregnant, and still had major eating disorders (I would argue that the atmosphere encouraged them). Personally, I would say that you have noted enough "red flags" that I would stay away and try to make things work at the public school.

OK so I have been thinking more critically of my experience with math, and I may just have to agree with the others. Even though I am far from a math whiz like many of the kids here, 6th and 7th grade math was a complete waste, I know that I could have taken algebra in 6th instead of 8th and not been wanting to bang my head on the desk or hide a book behind the math text.

The smart girls dumbing down thing (I think also mixed with some imposter syndrome for fun) came up in high school--I chose not to take the most challenging classes (although my excellent, public highly-competitive hs was very accomodating to those who wanted acceleration--i.e. my brother did one year of math over the summer and was able to take 2 years of AP calc., and there were a handful of kids each year who progressed much further than he did and were well supported by the school)
But, my parents, teachers, and guidance counselors didn't ask why or encourage me to take the higher level--despite straight As in math and 99% on standardized tests. So I would say that even in a highly regarded ps, parents still need to be more involved than mine were. (Also I guess typical of a gifted girl who appears to have it all together, is compliant, and doesn't cause problems and they trusted that I knew what I was doing...which I didn't)

So all that to say...my ideal school would be a public single-sex gifted school. But since I have not encountered one, I guess I might go for the public in your situation. Despite the fact that, again, the bright/gifted boys in my classes were the ones snickering in the back when I answered questions and appeared excited about learning (and this continued in hs even in AP classes), and despite the fact that the limited bullying and mean-girl stuff that happened in 7th grade was about boys, and despite the fact that I was actually subjected to what in the work-place would be called sexual harassment by some boys. Again not all--one of my best friends from toddlerhood through hs graduation was a (gifted) boy. And many of my close friends in college were kind boys.

I would read Rosalind Wiseman's books and I also really love the book Hold on to your kids--I think both would be appropriate as your dd enters middle school.

Re: girls schools--my husband's boss went to girls schools in New England and then Cornell, and she is highly successful and has reached a level that very few women in his industry reach. She seems to have been perfectly well prepared to work with men. (And I am currently in a rather intense conversation with her about her dd8 who is certainly gifted and mom is in gifted denial).

Good luck with your decision--please keep us updated.

Grinity, this cracked me up -- and ditto to your reply!

Oh, how I wish I could have gone to an all boys school in middle school. Not because I really liked boys, but because they were the only ones you could have an interesting conversation with that wasn't about boys or something else trivial. The girls were all so mean and dumb. Plus I always liked showing the boys that I could do whatever they could (other than pull-ups, always was terrible at those).

Here's what I'm curious about (and I'll admit I haven't read much on the topic): aren't most of the studies that show that girls do better in math in a same-sex environment done in a mixed-level class? I'm wondering how they might apply to HG girls specifically? or if it's really the upper-mid section of girls that are benefiting the most?

But I think it really depends on your daughter's personality, tjd. If you think she's going to be unduly pressured by the social aspects of being around boys, then you'd be the one who knows best. However, if your main concern is because of the things *other* girls in the school are doing (i.e. parent condoned dating), I'd be less worried. You don't have to allow her to date in 6th grade, even if she wants to. And she might not want to. A good number of the HG women who I've come to know as an adult were "late bloomers" and had mostly male friends in their youth.

Middle school is going to be hard, almost universally. And the differences between an HG girl and the norm are probably going to become more apparent. I have several years before my DD is there and I'm kind of already dreading it, so I wish you the best of luck!

rad

You know I never thought about all the mean girls - do they thrive in a single sex environment?

My DD won't be allowed to date, have a phone, etc. I just worry that all that stuff could be a distraction. She really has no interest in the few girls in her grade that are into Justin Bieber, Twilght etc - she still likes to play outdoors as much as possible.

I have not found any research regarding HG and single sex education, I wish I could.

Thanks so much!