Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy deterioration; we're at a loss to find solutions

I don't really have anything productive to say but that doctor sounds crazy! Can you switch to a different pediatrician?

At her age I think it should be her choice how she wants to handle it. If she wants you to change the subject or not to share information about her academics I'd agree to that. Certainly if you are together and someone asks questions about her, I would bow out of the conversation. I find it very odd when adults direct questions about a child her age to an adult instead of directly to the child who is standing there.

I would not present it as a matter of shame, but rather as a matter of choice. Preferring to be private about aspects of your life or preferring to be modest are perfectly acceptable choices to make. Preferring to talk about it and then hear "wow" is also a perfectly acceptable choice. Maybe it would be helpful to practice ways to role play situations to sidestep a question or change the subject. That helped our radically accelerated child get more comfortable with figuring out how he wanted to handle that information. It also helped him to hear that it is entirely his choice what he shares with others.

This is very much how we run our "homeschool". Our extras tend to get more time/focus and if we can tread water and go wide academically we do. I seriously am trying to avoid sending my kids to college too early. They aren't the very focused, mature GT type. They're more like the too smart for their own good type. Music is such a great activity for my kids because they really get forced to try on a daily basis, so that would low on the list to go if we had to make cuts, but clearly YMMV. If it wasn't serving as a consistent challenge to them, I doubt we'd prioritize it like we do.

Good luck making your choices! I'm glad it looks like she's turned a corner and you're making some good decisions.

I am going to echo ADHD inattentive type. It has taken years for me to see this trend in my famiy and it is very easy to dismiss. Look at the paradoxes in the information:

- She likes to be honor roll, but doesn't focus or work at it: In my family, I see this all the time. We have a history of Aspeger's on one side and ADHD on the other. It is really easy to blame this on the child's study skils. Heck, I blamed it on my study skills. My mother blames it on her inability to study. But, if you have ADHD you cannot focus. I was a total perfectionist, blamed myself for not being able to study, fell into huge depressions about it...and even with all that emotional turmoil, I could not study.

- The anger and frustration she has: If she can not study and cannot make herself work at it, then all the pushing in the world won't make it any better. I know the frustration from the parenting end. I have some of it for my older son who is both Aspeger's and ADD. It looks like laziness, but if it is AHD inattentive, then she cannot. And more importantly, she will avoid work that makes her think 'too much' because it is overwhelming. Whether or not she is perfectly capable of doing it, it will feel overwhelming and it takes a huge effort to get past that.

More points are that ADHD inattentive types work much better with hard deadlines that mean something. Usually they wait until the last minute, but they generally meet the deadline. You will see it more around school time, because that is when the child is asked to focus more on non-preferred tasks for longer periods of time, and to motivate herself to do things that they will find "boring" (i.e. that do not provide enough stimulus for them to be able to focus on.)

Anyways, I am not saying she has this, but I am saying that ther is a possibility she does.

Thanks again to everyone for the very thoughtful responses.


We have a series of appointments for DD with a local PsyD, but I have some reservations/concerns about THAT, now, as well.

DH and I really don't think (relative to her basic maturity, personality, etc.) that this is ADD. Remember, we both have considerable experience as classroom teachers. We've seen a LOT more ADD/ADHD up close and personal than most parents.

Those behaviors really seem to be completely voluntary on DD's part, and distinctly different from the ADD we've seen in others. She is also highly oppositional, and definitely not placed "appropriately" in an educational sense-- this is just a 'least-worst' solution. Far from an 'ideal' one. She's a sprinter, and school by design asks all students to be distance runners.

IMO, there's simply no way to separate the behaviors from adolescent acting out and personality, nevermind inadequate nutrition and sleep, which are also present here. All of that assuming that academic placement were completely appropriate-- which it isn't.

Here's my concern about the PsyD we've been referred to. Her specialty is in "Diagnosis and Treatment recommendations for ADD/ADHD."

While I have no problem with that-- it is deeply concerning to me that this is also apparently someone with little experience in HG+ children, and recall that we do NOT have scores for our DD. (There are a number of reasons for that, actually.)

Based on a variety of information, we believe that her SB scores would likely be in the 160's, but much of that is based on comparative data and other family members' scores on that particular tool. Knowing that she's PG is a no brainer, really-- she tests at +99th percentile on out-of-level (+3 y) acheivement tests every year. We live in an area with a decided paucity of good mental health resources, nevermind resources for gifted children.

The first PsyD wants us to go to a second PsyD for "testing" of some kind. Apparently this is to take about four hours. I've asked for more detail than that-- because I am NOT going to be very happy about a battery designed to identify LD or psychiatric disorders if there is NO consideration of her LOG in the mix.

I'm also not necessarily going to give permission for testing unless there is a clear benefit to my child in knowing the answers. In other words, if they want to test her just because she seems novel, forget about it.

Maybe I'm worried for nothing. But I'd sure like to know how many or what percentage of this psychologist's patients walk out with a diagnosis of some pathology-- and whether or not she's got a lot of experience with PG kids.



Oh, and the appointments? The first PsyD we were referred to has us booked for her very first openings. In late JUNE. Ugh.


I realize that this is probably a fairly controversial (perhaps even :loaded:) question, but I know from experience with human beings that when you are holding a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail. My DH and I both share the concern I outlined above-- that the person we've been referred to may see MOST kids as "probably ADD" and potentially ignore the fact that this kid's problems are almost certainly related to HG+ issues.

Are we right to be concerned about a misdiagnosis here? What would others do?

My suggestion is to be concerned about a misdiagnosis regardless of how probable it is. Especially if they suggest medication. Medication for ADD or ADHD given to a child without this condition may not only be ineffective, but have extreme negative effects. If you decide to try any suggested course of action, be aware of signs the suggested action is ineffective or resulting in negative effects.

So basically educate yourself as much as possible before trying any new course of action and be prepared to watch as closely as possible for any changes. Record any observation of change, even the minor ones. Discuss these observations as quickly as possible. Consider multiple sources of expertise.

Yeah, no worries there.

I have a PhD in chemistry, earned via neurochemistry with particular expertise in the impact of drugs of abuse in the biogenic amine neurotransmitter system, as well as nearly a decade in molecular pharmacology including cardiac pharmacology. I'm probably FAR more aware of the side effects than most clinicians are, truth be told. Which is one reason I'm so concerned about mis-identification. I know that we won't medicate DD as a diagnostic measure (let's try it and see if it helps) but I don't especially feel like having to go there in the first place.

Clinicians are often somewhat defensive with my DH and I in the first place because of our (apparently intimidating) background. Usually the first thing out of a doctor's mouth is a mumbled, "Oh... I hated chemistry." This occasionally leads to problems. (It isn't just us, btw-- have a friend with a trisomy child that has the same problems with physicians because of her PhD in pharmacology.) I guess we come across as not especially.. um... awed... or maybe they just anticipate that we won't.

I treasure physicians that aren't intimidated by me and will recognize that I ask questions because I truly just want to know what they THINK about things. (Luckily, our DD's main specialist is just such a clinician.)

Very interesting to learn about your area of expertise. I have a particular interest in cognitive science, but it is not my field.

I don't have any formal educational expertise in any of the areas related to this particular issue. My experience however, involves living in a unique small town of 2000, where I personally know 1500 people. The town has often led the entire country in a number of per capita statistics (in some years). For instance, highest number of scientists, highest number of gifted students. I will describe this town as one of extremes. Some of statistical extremes are good and some are not good. I do not wish to go into details here. The statistics were not extremely out of line with the average, but enough to be noticable.

Living in a small town, a person gets to see people from birth to advanced age. It also offers up the opportunity to know a lot about peoples personal, professional, educational and social lives. When I compare a lot of what I have seen to what the sciences involved in human behavior, I see a lot of missing information. I suspect a lot of psychologists only see their patients for the short period of time they are under a specific classification.

I have seen a few cases where the effects of the wrong medication were significant enough to feel it is a good idea to monitor someone 24/7 for a period of at least a couple weeks or possibly more. Nothing might have happened, but the person effected appeared completely out of control of their actions and totally confused.

At the age of 11, the changes may only be temporary life cycle changes (a more extreme terrible 2s cycle). However, there is a lot of neural developmental changes happening at this age as well. These developmental changes can be permanent. The more permanent changes tend to be more gradual in nature. You will gradually see a change in behavior in a certain direction. The temporary changes tend to appear suddenly and disappear as suddenly. Some people don't notice the gradual changes until they are extreme, so these changes may be seen as sudden.

This is what my experience tells me.

Yes, I think you should be concerned about this. I would suggest that you try to meet in person with the psych. before he/she meets with your daughter and does any kind of testing or evaluation. Find out as much as you can about their background and credentials, and what tests they plan to do.

I regret having my DS11 tested a year ago by a psychologist without meeting him first. And I'm pretty sure I got a mis-diagnosis (but that's another story). I think that finding the right person to help a child as unusual as yours will require some research (and maybe some travel too).

HowlerKarma,
Don't go to a psych who isn't experienced with gifted. Why bother? What would they know about frustration and acting up or needing to DO something because the pace of the learning material is so slow...

It is way better to spend the money at a minimum on someone who is experienced with gifted children and would be really really nice that they know gifted Girls! Because girls aren't boys. Heh.

I've heard good things about "The Gifted Development Center" http://www.gifteddevelopment.com in Colorado I think. But there has got to be other good psyc ed testers on the West Coast.

But yes, meet with psyc first and ask lots of questions.
Best wishes!