Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy deterioration; we're at a loss to find solutions

The seasonal component combined with the other depressive symptoms (including the reduced overall appetite with candy cravings) really makes me think about Seasonal Affective Disorder, although the sinus infection possibility mentioned by another poster could also give a similar pattern.

I think a consultation with a medical professional is in order to rule these sorts of things out.

<sniff-sniff>

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I dread talking about this to anyone because it always seems to eventually turn into some kind of blame game involving how DD is obviously not "ready" for the demands "we" have placed on her...

and kcab, your points went straight to my heart. This is exactly why we opted to stop homeschooling in the first place when she was just six-- because DD is pretty resistant to direct instruction from anyone she has an emotionally intimate relationship with. Unfortunately, she's now known her piano teacher long enough that the poor woman seems to have been admitted into DD's inner circle. (Which often seems to amount to one of Dante's circles of hell, fwiw...) Anyone that she does NOT have that kind of relationship with, on the other hand, she may have trust issues with initially. It's a second type of Goldilocks effect for her, and it's tied to the fact that her disability makes her fairly vulnerable to the choices of others. The virtual schooling DOES remove that from the equation.

But I think what another poster said about amount of output is correct. Her disappointment with high school is that it got worse on BOTH fronts-- that is, "more" was required of her... but "less" is, as well, since the courses are actually LESS differentiated, and she's lost touch with the posse of GT kids she used to "run" with in school by virtue of following a 'slower' path through the high school curriculum. (She's out of synch with them now since they took "9th" grade classes this year, and she is off the beaten track a bit.)

I understand the confusion about virtual schooling. Her school days are a bit like a college students', if that helps; that is, she has set class times (net-meetings, synchronous distance class sessions run by the teachers) during the week, and then she completes the class 'work/assignments' outside of that time. This is why there both IS and IS NOT a 'schedule' for completing schoolwork. When it is working in terms of academic fit, it's almost ideal for a PG kid, because they can naturally 'sprint-rest-sprint' through the year as long as they attend class regularly. When it isn't working, however, it's as though you're in free fall with no parachute. The bottom line is that for most kids, "letting them fail" works fine-- because if they don't turn in their homework with everyone else when it is due, bad things happen. If DD doesn't turn in HER work, she just leaves the lesson incomplete. Nothing 'bad' happens, and in most cases, the teachers don't really care. It's only at the end of the marking period that it becomes "a problem." The only way to let her experience the consequences of her actions is for her to literally see what happens when half a term's worth of assignments become zeros in a gradebook overnight, turning a course grade to an F on her high school transcripts. Naturally, we think that this is unlikely to convey the lesson in a way that an 11 yo can 'hear' much less cope with, since the consequence is so removed in time from the behavior itself.

ETA: Hmmm... now that I think about it, though, this may well explain why she's so willing to go that route, in spite of our hectoring/badgering. Avoidance gives an immediate reward (not doing something unpleasant, avoiding possible 'failure') with a nebulous, if severe, punishment looming in the mists of time... compliance risks immediate 'punishment' or disappointment re: perfectionism.

DH and I both agree that high school, for her, has been rather like what an adult would experience if EVERY day on the job were "training" day... day... after... agonizing... day... of... training... workshops. Most of us have had to sit through as much as a week or so of those, and it does rob you of all motivation and leave you an irritable mess. School is absolutely part of the problem, and it is contributing mightily to both perfectionism and to existential depression. In talking calmly with DD last night, I truly feel that she is experiencing problems in both areas.

On the other hand, task tolerance is a HUGE issue for DD and always has been. She's definitely a perfectionist with "quitter" tendencies. She does NOT push herself. She never has. So parenting-wise, we've been approaching things as Val indicates.


We've wondered about SAD for years because of the seemingly seasonal nature of this phenomenon, but it's impossible to really separate that (for us) from the cycle of the academic school year.

We have an appointment with our GP tomorrow, and hopefully we can get a referral to someone who can actually offer her some help, or at least help us get to the bottom of things if there is an underlying medical cause (and that is a possibility, and a worrying one).

Again, thank you. This is more genuine help than we have ever had, and I really can't put into words how grateful I am.

I'm wondering... is removing that from the equation entirely actually a good thing at this point in her life? It sounds like the virtual school is removing a lot of possibility for growth. If the stakes are so big she can't be allowed to feel the consequences of her behavior in the form of failing a class that's really missing out on important learning opportunities.

I'd say it is a rare HG or PG kid that finds one school solution works for their most or all of their school career. I think that's one of the most frustrating thing about parenting gifted kids is that you have to be ever open to the possibility of change.

For what it is worth, I've known a few preteens who were very happy and successful with homeschooling or virtual schooling when they were younger, but then became really discontent as they hit the preteen and early teen years. They got lonely. They needed to stretch their wings to more in real life academic situations. They needed more trusted mentors and friends. Of course, kids may not have the clarity to realize this and explain it to their parents... they just deteriorate and hope we figure it out. I understand that other options may not always be possible, but when you are seeing such a meltdown I'm wondering if there are any other possible options at this point. One gentle transition might be to move away from full time virtual school to a homeschooling that includes some higher quality online component (as in courses with stuff other than a bunch of multiple choice courses) as well as bringing in more tutors or mentors.

PTP, thank you for being honest.

This is a message that I have a hard time hearing. I'm very sensitive to assertions of "oversheltering" or "helicopter" parenting, because that is what our vigilance can look like; coupled with the natural assumptions that a lot of people make re: hothousing of GT kids, and it's probably obvious why I often hear "enmeshment" when someone says "stretch their wings". (Enmeshment = categorically untrue.)

I understand what you are saying, though, and I think you are correct. She's lonely and miserable, and some of it isthe school situation and how badly it fits.

We need to figure out HOW to transition without risking her life unduly in the process, that's all.

I spoke with the school counselor, and we hammered out at least where we think the big problems are, which is some progress. The perfectionism coupled with the assessments that are feeding that perfectionism.... eh. I may have my own work-around for that one, but the school does not.

I can: a) give her a GROUP of assessments rather than just three or four questions on a single one, or b) I can rewrite the questions as short-answer format and have her do THOSE, then she can 'choose' her answers on the assessments based on her well-considered written responses... thereby short-circuiting the low-level assessments.

I can't fix the curricular materials themselves, unfortunately... which means that my daughter has already read the rest of the literature selections this year for her English class.


We have tentatively planned to have independent study on the table next year in leiu of another bonehead elective. It may need to be more than one. The counselor was also open to the idea of having her take a college level course for dual credit. (This also isn't really new-- it was something we planned to do anyway starting in sophomore year.)

We also think that a tutor/mentor in math, in particular, would be a terrific thing. We will have to choose carefully, and hope that the person understands that we really aren't kidding about DD's disability.

DD knows that she needs to develop study skills. We have a tentative plan for that.

We will also need to hothouse EF for the next few months/years if she's to enter college coursework earlier than we were hoping.

Her social skills may be excellent, but the highly limited opportunities to use them and to build a social network are making her feel very isolated and alien.

We are examining whether or not we could afford to transition to homeschooling with some higher quality distance components (local colleges offer some on-line coursework and some hybrid courses, and of course there are EPGY offerings).


We are also going to closely examine the medical side of things. (Saying that with my heart in my throat-- none of the possibilities are 'good' there; I'd almost RATHER that it were a mental health issue.)

DD is very resistant to seeing a therapist; she positively BRISTLED at the very idea and informed me that she didn't want some head-shrinker telling her "that I'm messed up or defective." <sigh> We clearly have our work cut out for us.

HK,

I have no advice, but I really hope things go well at the GP. The EF issues and your dd's comments about her disability resonate with our own experience with dd and PG/2E...
Best,
Chrys

Oh, and I'm calling a moratorium to further schoolwork for the next week, maybe two. She can do work on study skills with the special ed teacher, but enough is enough.

We're all tired, and we need to figure out the physiological problems DD is having.

DD is deeply concerned about a hiatus-- she asked me if I'd assign her a research paper or something in the interim. (Augh)

I think that she needs to think about her situation having taken a step backwards so that she can see the forest for the trees. Right now she's hacking through the underbrush, and I'm a little concerned that she's going to start hacking off digits given how things are going. Time to calm down a bit will be time well-spent.

Just to be perfectly clear, I didn't say or imply enmeshment or helicopter parenting. I can't imagine saying that to anyone and especially not to someone I don't even know.

When I say "stretch their wings" I'm talking about something I've seen with plenty of preteens and teens in happy functional families. The desire for kids to have more contact outside of the family and to have more academic experiences with other teachers and mentors is a really normal thing. And, isn't that what we hope for our kids that they will feel capable and desiring of new experiences? I understand you are facing medical issues, that make that transition more complicated. But, the desire to "stretch wings" and having more contact with other people is not evidence that you are too enmeshed or have done something wrong. Instead it is just a sign that while some stuff may not be "normal" there is other stuff that is normal.


There are quite a few good options out there. http://www.lukeion.org/ http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/

Also, I agree with the suggestion to look at grad students or other in real life tutors. Those relationships might go a long way to helping with the lonely part of the equation. And, also, I suspect like a lot of homeschool parents before you it would be the case that she would be more motivated and willing to push herself to deal with some of the challenging stuff like perfectionism.


There are a lot out good people in the world who really enjoy working with capable students. I bet it won't be hard to find someone.


For what it is worth, every teenager I've heard of who complained that they'd never talk to a therapist ended up finding it helpful once they got with somebody good.

I just want to send hugs. Sorry this is so had. I hope you can get away from all of this is some way, like a nice walk or a vacation. Tell her you love her and she is very important to you.

OTGmom, thank you. We do love her dearly, and she is NOT a bad/rotten kid by any stretch. She's actually a wonderful person, and it is just agonizing for us to see her hurting so much. We are very demonstrative with her; she definitely hears how much we love her. Often.

She slept in until almost noon today and then even ate real food at several points during the day, including sitting and eating dinner with us. So that was encouraging.


PTP, I definitely understood that you weren't saying that.

I'm just highly sensitized, as noted. It's hard to maintain a 'healthy' distance in a child who faces a life-threatening chronic problem, YK? It changes all the time, and there are some things you cannot let your child learn "the hard way." All the things that people are willing to say about GT children being their parents' creations (and you know we've all met THEM)... what's a little Munchausen among strangers, eh? (I'm kidding, of course... but I've definitely had people think and even broadly HINT those obnoxious and ignorant things about my family.)



I deeply appreciate the perspective you offered and agree wholeheartedly that building a social life outside of home is much needed right now. She's terribly lonely. DH is going to try to help her find a local RPG to play D&D with or something.

Hopefully DD will find a therapist that she really clicks with. It's very clear that she needs someone who can help her with some of the issues she's struggling with.



We are strongly in favor of a tutor/mentor for math in particular. DH thinks I should contact the Ed department of the local uni. I was thinking that the MATH department might actually be the better shot for someone that would "sync" well with a PG preteen. Wonder what others think about that.


Again, I just want to THANK everyone who has been so kind in offering thoughts and suggestions. It is deeply appreciated, and my DH and I are thankful to have fresh eyes looking at this situation.

Wow! That is a lot to deal with at once. I think that for some outgoing kids, being away from the social whirl of a brick and mortar school can be very lonely. You mentioned the one friend and the likely bad influence -- would it be possible to dilute her influence by expanding physical contact with her peers (not necessary age peers) if medical limitations will allow? Considering how far advance your DD11 is, could you get medical authorization to remove all the pressures of academics for a month or so? It seem that you have valid reasons and her mental health and emotional well-being are so much more important.

I hope it gets better with the approach of spring.