Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment good test for math achievement

I am trying to wrap up some questions I've had about ds10's math ability. I posted in another thread about being kind of thwarted in getting some testing at the school, so I am considering another test of some sort(??)
I called the Dr. who tested dd4 last year. She was really great with dd. She suggested an achievement test to get a grade level for his math (wechsler?)
Does anyone know if this has a heavy emphasis on being fast? I did mention his processing speed issue, but did not specifically ask that question. Is that the same as wiat?

Or any other tests that would be good for testing math at age 10? thanks!

Hi Dottie,thanks for all the info!!
Not really shooting for acceleration per-se, but rather harder math, there doesn't seem an easy way to get that.
Ds has 'hung in there' waiting/asking for harder math for years and I think it is just time.
He is doing epgy beginning algebra, which is 8th grade-ish, but really I am not sure it would make sense to have him in a regular 8th grade math class, so that is not what I am shooting for. Long term, I want him challenged, open to the idea of himself as mathematically capable, if not actually gifted in that area.
He tends to think in extremes, if he isn't super great with something then he thinks that he's terrible at it. His speed issue has often skewed his and other's perceptions of his basic ability in math, I do think his ability is very good (94th percentile naglieri numbers though he was also diagnosed as depressed at the time, and the speed/ld issue).

I want him to see the fun that math can be, and it seems that the harder epgy stuff is at least much more interesting that the stuff he is getting in school. Today we looked at the list of the remainder of the course and he was happy to see what was in store though he doesn't know what is all means, and happy to see the course does have an end!

Explore I don't know anything about, again I'd be shy of anything that is timed for him (or has only timed sections). I will take a look, thanks for the suggestion!

The child is just unusual, and there's the rub in getting what he needs, since I can't even figure out necessarily what he needs!
thanks again for the response!

I can't comment on your ds's ability at all, but I really urge you not to think that an achievement test offers a good indication of grade level. Explore would likely have been the closest because it's more questions at a given grade (all 8th), so you can get a sense from that grade at least. It's much more like end-of-grade type testing than a regular achievement test. For the other tests, I have a child who tested on the WIAT in 1st with grade equivalents of 8th grade. For the WJ, taken in 4th grade, the GE were almost all >18.0. There's no way the school would take those seriously, nor should they!

AoPS provides a great supplement either doing the classes online or just playing with alcumus and reading the books.

Aops sounds interesting, I will check it out.
A year ago I would have thought, oh well if he can demonstrate he can do the algebra in an online course, etc., then the school, etc., will know he can do the algebra, but I've just been through sending the school info/examples of his work in algebra and it was not really taken seriously either. I haven't seen him work at this level long enough (1/2 a course) to fully 'get' that he can do it, either,frankly. But we continue because it seems to put him in a good mood and I think it is good for him.

Can anyone tell me how Aops algebra might differ from algebra w/EPGY? thanks!!

Hm, also, what would the wiat test offer if not grade level?? I think the dr. said there is a some kind of pre-algebra screening in it. Is this just generally a useless test?

It offers a gross estimate based on a few questions which can be helpful for demonstrating that a child has some ability in that area, but the grade equivalents are truly useless. When a 9 yo scores at >18.0 grade, it doesn't mean she needs graduate level math. It doesn't even test that high. Whether a child can do the curriculum at a given school is a different question.

I'd also note that being able to do algebra isn't much of an argument for skipping grades since many kids in 5th grade could do algebra with any exposure. Our school would ask whether the child could test at greater than 90% of the final tests for 5th/6th/7th/8th before thinking about placement in algebra.

Based on this thread, I'm not sure if you're interested in using Alcumus (AoPS) for showing algebra-readiness or if you want to use it as supplemental/unschooling so take this with a grain of salt.

Alcumus
Problem based learning. IMO better than ALEKs. Not sure how well it relates to EPGY. Problems are presented somewhat randomly, but according to level. They're not necessarily only algebra problems and will usually span different types of math. After answering a question or giving up on a question you get to read their solution which is where the learning phase comes into play. This is where it's just much, much better than ALEKs. An autodidactic child will eat this up. Various "quests" are offered for things like so many done in a row. There are even quests like "don't answer a question for 8 hours." I'm wondering how they knew they'd need that... they must have interviewed DS. Free.

Khan Academy
Not just videos. The exercises are also very good. We go back and forth between the two programs. Integrated with the videos so you get the instructional material delivered that way. Units can be competed (there is a neat space map of units drawn in a tree form) by getting a streak of 10 problems correct in a row. Start where ever you'd like. Also offers virtual medals or rewards. Also done very well. Also free. Also better than ALEKs in my opinion.

When we do our GIEP for next year, we're probably just going to have them use one of these two programs. Since they're free and since they're currently paying for ALEKs I'm thinking they'll probably go along with it.

Hope that helps.

JB

So the grade levels are really off base, one last question on the wiat, what about the percentile scores? would they be any more on-target?

also, Kaibab, curious why you say most 5th graders can do algebra if exposed...I sort of feel the same way, but have no real points of reference from which I get this...? maybe because my 5th grader is doing it, lol..

thanks JbDad, I am not entirely sure what ds needs, but will likely continue with math enrichment at home for a while, so the more resources I know about, the better.

I'm no expert on curricula, but there are math options that include very early introduction of algebraic concepts. My kids had "early algebra" beginning in 1st grade with basic concepts of x standing in for something, with more algebra units each year slowly covering more material, all of it basic but covering algebraic type equations. There's really nothing especially difficult about basic algebra. Most US curricula choose to introduce it after arithmetic, but that's not a requirement.

There is a great deal of difference between being able to learn some new concepts if taught, which most bright kids ought to do fairly easily, and being ready for a different level of instruction. To argue that a child needs to be placed in algebra in a school, my experience tells me that it's not nearly enough to show that the child can learn algebra. I suspect that's not that unusual among bright kids. I think you'd need to show that your child has mastered the grades between his current grade and when algebra starts. That may be true, but it's a very different thing than just showing he can do some algebra. From my experience, even showing mastery of all math until algebra may not get you very far with a school!

yes, I can definitely see that I might be fighting a futile battle (if he demonstrates he can do harder work there aren't any options anyway, lol!<-- not quite true, but almost).
It is a shame, in my opinion, but he is getting more comfortable with the idea of getting his brain work at the house a few nights a week. Sigh.

thanks again, all! I will probably try for the math side of wiat since the cost is lower than a lot of other testing, and the tester can fit us in this week sometime. Then I will have some more info and not have to wait on the glacial movement of the schools for the 'possibility' of a test. (will know that I should not be swept away by grade-level numbers; I really appreciate that tip).