Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Should I be working with DS on WM and PS?

We've been using just the regular workbook lately, actually. So I don't think the problems are too hard for him. (And I agree 100% that the challenging/intensive workbooks are much more hard-core! The logic in them is sometimes challenging for me! I'm glad I have the answers!) The thing I liked about them was that the more challenging problems worked him harder conceptually, but didn't require more math facts knowledge or speed. That seemed useful. But lately we've just been doing things differently. I decided I wanted to make math easy for him for a while rather than challenging him. We were trying to go "deeper, not faster," but I think now my philosophy is "neither deeper nor faster"! <sheepish grin>

To answer your questions, his addition facts are down reasonably well, though not down cold. I think he stillhas to think it through rather than having everything memorized, but he can think through addition pretty fast. He's significantly slower on subtraction--sometimes has to flip it around to addition to recall it. He knows maybe half the 0-10 multiplication facts, though not usually very fast, and he knows virtually none of the division facts.

So I guess that's a "no, he doesn't really have his math facts down yet."

Should I be drilling him more, do you think? The psych warned that too much focus on memorization--"drill and kill"--would likely quash his interest in learning.

*sigh* Honestly, I have been feeling like I'm walking a tightrope on this whole math issue. Too much drill? Not enough? Mostly I've been following my gut with it--try a little and if he seems tired of it, we move on to something else. But it's hard to know if I'm giving him what he needs. I just keep reminding myself that he's doing 3rd grade math, so if we did no more math for the rest of the year, he's not behind!

Still, I can't help feeling like I'm missing something that I should be doing for him.

Ugh. It's days like this, when I'm monopolizing the forum, that I'm glad I can type fast!

Nothing usefull to add other than if you find some approaches that help, please share them??? WM and processing are the skill set we are working on.

May I ask: What's your child's situation that you're working on WM and PS? And what are you doing to work on them? Any thoughts to share?

I'd love to pick your brain as well as sharing with you what others say!

Kriston, I would bet that not having his facts down is slowing him enough that he loses his place. He obviously knows the concepts, but when he's in the middle of a problem if he has to stop and calculate, then get back on track to solving the whole problem, then I bet it's frustrating to him.
While too much rote memorization can be frustrating, sometimes it can be just as frustrating if a person doesn't have those addition/multiplication answers immediately.
GS8 complained at first, but we blocked out a week when all we did in the free time was go over his addition facts. When he got them he realized how much it helped. When he needed his subtraction facts, it only took a day, and very little complaining because he knew it would help him. Same thing with multiplication/division.
Maybe it's time to do a little memorization drills. Promise him a reward for sticking to a task that's not as fun as others. I reward myself for finishing mundane tasks, why not do the same for the kids?

That makes sense. Maybe I'll talk with him about it and see what he thinks would help him. I generally get better buy-in if he decides the time is right to do something, rather than if I tell him it's time to do something.

Hmmm...

Hk Kriston,
So glad that you are sharing your concerns. Here's how I've been thinking about things lately:

1) The bottleneck! Less profound than an outright LD, many of our kids have challenge areas that make it really difficult to teach them at their readiness level in their strengths.

2) Spiky Profiles! another way of saying the same thing - theoretically homeschooling is great for accomidating this sort of thing, but IRL it takes lots of trial and error to find the right approach, and maturity on the part of the parent to not blame the kid. Great to hear that you are getting better and better able to notice 'where he is.'

3)Math Facts are important, and Drill is about the only way to do it, although I would throw in neumonics and teach about them as a seperate non-Math class. I'd call it memorization. I'd do a full explore on what he wants to memorize, and which methods he wants to try first. I would also consider allowing him to do this while being emotionally distracted, perhaps by watching an unrelated TV Documentary, or playing a computer game. Or let him test you - have you noticed that the easiest way to memorize something is when you are quizing someone else.

For 'real math' you can let him use a calculator, perhaps making the rule that he can only use it for single digit operations, and has to 'take notes' on what he has gotten from the calculator. Also there are great tables for the facts that he can use to quickly look up the facts while using them in more complicated work. Just write 1 to 9 across the top and down the left side of the page, and allow thim to work on filling out one for addition, one for subtraction, one for multiplication and one for division. Using them over and over may help them 'seep in.' Has he read "The Number Devil?" Anyway the trick is to seperate math into two subjects, and teach each at their readiness level.

For what it's worth, I think that there are some skills that a kid just isn't going to learn before they are developmentally ready. My DS11 had Zero interest in learning to read an analoug clock in Kindy, but was happy to learn at school in first. ((shrug)) It just didn't look that difficult to me, considering the other stuff he was doing.

I think that the basic recipie for self-esteem when dealing with a spiky profile kid is this:
2x as much energy, time and resource on providing for their strengths as for working on the weaknesses.
Don't allow the weaknesses to limit the advanced work or to be left behind.
A little bit can go a long way.
Keep an eye on your mood and on your child's mood.

In other words, just what you are doing!
Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks, Grinity!

I like thinking about it as a bottleneck. That fits neatly with how I'm seeing the issue.

The calculator for 1-digit math has helped my frustration level, and he has enjoyed playing with the new gadget, so I'm glad that makes sense to do. "Taking notes" seems like a smart way to reinforce the learning there. You're so good! We have used the times tables table (if that makes sense), and it didn't go as well. Maybe now that I'm less annoyed by the way he's working it would go better.

I also like the idea of doing the math facts as a memorization "class" separate from math. That seems workable and less likely to make him hate math.

He has not read "The Number Devil." What is it?

Thanks and more thanks, Grin!

K-

I recently read on a GT list serv somewhere about a parent that had a child memorize a multiplaction table every week for 12 weeks. If they could recite it cold on Friday, they would go to a movie or something like that. I think rewards shouldn't be overused, but when it comes to something like this, it may be useful! This is one of the first things I was thinking of working on with my DS if we homeschool. He sounds like he's exactly where your DS is in terms of math fact recall. And I totally understand about needing him to buy into an idea! I think this is part of the deal that makes a regular school so hard for these guys, isn't it?

I also think Grin has a great point about being developmentally ready for certain things. We had the exact same experience with learning to read an analog clock with DS. Only recently mastered skill. We also don't own a functional analog clock either, so I suppose that didn't help at all.

Yes, I think rewards for annoying chores have their place, so like you, I'm not opposed to something like that either, kimck. I just haven't felt like it would work with him yet. He's been very resistant. Maybe now that I'm so much more laid back, with a little time, he'll be ready for that sort of thing.

I think what I'll do is propose it as an option, dangling the carrot in front of him when I propose it. Then I'll let him decide when he wants to try it. I think we'll be more successful that way.

I also worry that as you and Grinity both suggest, maybe 6 is just too early for easily memorizing such things if they don't come naturally. I vividly recall memorizing the times tables in 3rd grade, and how much fun it was to race against my best time. DS doesn't seem to have any of that spirit yet. I wonder if it is a skill as much related to emotional development as to intellectual development.

Anyway, thanks! Very helpful!

Kristin,
We do drill math facts, but with a twist. I have a workbook of math drills. I copy the pages and we make a competition out of it. DS LOVES to beat DH and I on them. We handicap ourselves by having to do it with our offhand or with the page upside down. We do not make it easy for him to win, but he is getting about as fast as us on the addition and subtraction. Multiplication and division are still weighted toward Mom and Dad. He also really likes to beat his personal best times so we do the math drill, then chart his times on a graph so he can see how he is doing. (and lay the groundwork for stats...) (edit, since we crossed posts..DS is in third grade lol)Aleks online math program has really helped DS to learn to stay focused and double check his work unless he wants to do extra drill. Those piepieces really get his attention.

Our WM issue is more to do with the physical act of writing while composing. So much of his school activities require him to write x number of sentences in cursive or write a 2 page journal entry about his weekend. That sort of stuff. DS literally cannot keep up with how to form the letters, spell the words and write coherently all at the same time. He also hates to spend more time than he thinks he should on the assignment. We are working on his keyboarding skills to let him type a rough draft before physically writing it. Much easier to make corrections in Word than in his notebook. We are working on brainstoming options and the use of key words to help stay organized.

We also recently started him in drum lessons (he wanted them and I'd put him off with piano for 2 years). A side effect is that the drum set requires him to focus on multiple actions at once in a way that he finds fun. I'll have to see if over time it improves other activities as well.

Not much help I think we take the idea of building coping skills and teaching him that this will be a long term source of frustration for him and that there are things he can do to help compensate for the WM and processing issues. However, they DO require him to learn different skills from many of his classmates. Concepts that I really didn't learn until college like actually doing rough drafts lol, he is learning now.

FWIW...