Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Piano lesson complaining - LONG

I'd say that the vast majority of my arguments have been in favor of teaching our kids a little persistence/perseverance/etc. As a most recent example, during the eleven pages of discussion that preceded the post regarding Chua's article, I was quite decidedly in the Evil Ogre camp, in that I considered piano to be a requirement in our house, even when practices occasionally turned into Battles of Will.

Similarly, one of my favorite articles is still "What a Child Doesn't Learn," which discusses the importance of keeping kids appropriately challenged. I shared that countless times here and with most of the teachers at my son's school, as it succinctly expresses my underlying concerns about letting him coast though school.

I experienced the same nasty shock as you upon my first foray in higher education, and it wasn't until we were contemplating our son's first skip (into 1st @ age 4) that I fully understood what led up to the hitting-the-wall in college.

Largely due to my own experience, my approach with his education was to make sure he was challenged & stretched as much as possible. He'd already grown very complacent by 2nd grade and was addicted to the easy As he collected as a result of his intellect, leaving him extremely fearful of anything that even remotely resembled a challenge.

By pushing for the second skip in 4th, with an additional year skip in math, he began to realize how spoiled he had been previously. Now when he pulls of straight As, I feel as though he's actually done something to earn them. But I most certainly do not go into flying fits of rage over an A- or B+.

I don't think I missed Chua's points in her essay, either major or minor. And, while I hoped she was writing at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek , I think she was dead serious about the superiority of her overall approach. (Unless, of course, I totally missed some of that stereotypical Chinese Mother subtle humor.)

As for my fanciful desire to poke Chua's approach right in the eye, by Chinese partner said I nailed it. You are still correct, though, (and I thought it went without saying) that she would think me an idiot for not squeezing every last drop out of my own children, but it would absolutely drive her to distraction (and beyond) that her child had been outdone by some lazy bug-hunting Western high-nose.

Just like the Asian influence in our household cooking, I have no problem adopting certain aspects of Chua's approach, but I'd not sign up to take an immersion class on becoming a Chinese Mother. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just have slightly different goals for my kids.

C'mon Wren, you've been around here long enough to know I don't roll that way.

If this is true, then you have failed as a "Chinese Mother," at least within the construct described by Chua. At best you would be a Westernized Chinese Mother in her view.

How would you react to an A-... or heaven forbid... a B+!?!?

Would you express an even-tempered insistence on improvement, or would there be "first a screaming, hair-tearing explosion" followed by running to get "dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with [your] child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A"?

I think I've read enough of your posts 'round here to know that while you may be more demanding than I am (and many people are), you probably don't hold a candle to the Land-of-Enchantment that Chua describes.

No pressure. But we're watching the gymnastic and skating spectacular on NBC and the boy's running around the room doing tumbles and the girl's smiling and cooing. I guess they better be a jock and a cheerleader. LoL.

Wren I love reading your posts about all the opportunities you provide your daughter. We're not in that position in this location but I think you're life is a pleasure to read about.

You posted that link Dandy? The reigning champ of the piano thread defends his title!

Here's an interesting response from a piano teacher to Ms. Chua's article.

Did anyone read through the comments on the article? I saw a lot of long comments written by people who described their upbringings under the type of parenting described by Ms. Chua, and the vast majority wrote...well, negatively. This one is particularly wrenching. It's a YouTube link supplied by a commenter.

In all honesty, the method described by Ms. Chua seems to me to be best-suited to people who are smart but aren't terribly creative and who wish to ensure that their kids are successful inside the box. The Chua approach is well-suited to this, as it teaches (forces?) children to do what their elders or superiors tell them and not to question what they're told. Thus, it produces people who get along well at work, get promoted, and have many external indicators of success.

But it won't produce the original thinkers who shake up things and move a field or a society in new directions. This is because the "DO IT THE WAY I SAID TO!!!" method doesn't teach children to think originally, challenge authority, and think of groundbreaking solutions to problems or field-changing ideas (e.g. in theoretical physics, politics, or energy generation). Giving children no or very little say in the choice of extracurriculars and other things also discourages them from exploring an idea simply because it might be interesting. When you're taught that the only way to succeed is follow a prescribed course and to do what senior people tell you do to, the way they tell you to do it, you can't develop the ability to question ideas that everyone accepts (though they might be wrong). Again, this is fine if you want to have external indicators of success and want the same for your child --- though it's a shame that the child doesn't get any say in things (at least, not under the philosophy advocated by Ms. Chua).

It seems that some of the people who grow up this way clearly do have creativity and find a way to overcome their upbringings (for an example, see the YouTube video I referenced). These people must be have very strong characters and I really admire them.

Val

No -- the link came from Kaibab.

I learned about the article from a Chinese business partner -- he thought it was a riot and wanted to share. As soon as I got to the author's gentle approach regarding piano indoctrination, I immediately thought of this thread. Obviously I was not alone!

Dandy

p.s.
Our daughter was deemed ready for ritualistic torture-by-ivory after our meeting with the piano instructor last week!!! She already learned her first song and knows the names of all the white keys. I'll bet three hours of practice per day will turn her into a virtuoso in no time at all.

It'd be an interesting experiment to apply the more "intense" approach with her and see how she fares compared to her brother, who we practically coddled all along by some measurements. Just imagine the possibilities!

I'm not done reading it but I stopped to post I caught myself unconsciously shaking my head "yes" like a bobblehead doll while reading the piano teachers response. Lazy "westerners", hoping for talent and cruel "Chinese mothers" forcing mindless drills until midnight so the cute puppy can do a trick by morning are both wrong. Everybody's all wrong. (especially me for repeating those bigoted name-callings. You're right lucounu, i'm prejudice and I'm going to hades). You need to give the kid's tools and skills complete with understanding and this should be patiently cultivated and it takes time. I was, I was sitting there shaking my head yes while I was reading this.

But talent (like IQ) is real, and lots of practice can only compensate so much for a lack of it. There's also a vast middle ground between expecting to get by on talent alone (never works) and expecting to be a huge success with practice alone (also doesn't work).

Think of people who pick something up in days --- yet it takes weeks or months for others who are average to get the same thing. Talent did that, not practice.

Think of people who can run faster than all the other kids in the school when they're ten. Talent did that, not practice. Practice is what will turn those kids into athletes who compete at a national level or higher.

Think of people who are forced to sit at the piano until they get the piece, because Mommy said so. They might play the piece eventually, but some won't be able to transfer the technique to a new piece. Practice did that. Not talent.

It's good to think about. I followed a link from the piano teacher's comments to someone's blog calling Amy Chan "authoritarian". Reminded me about a line in the book "parenting the gifted child" about three types of parenting- authoritarian, authoratative, and permissive. The best choice is authoritative. I guess the best lessons in that is Cesar Milan's teachings on how to be a pack leader. How to be gently assertive, calm but not cruel. And in charge.
http://academicsfreedom.blogspot.com/2011/01/focus-on-effort-not-talent.html
And this guy from the piano teacher's comments brought it back to Carol Dweck. I suppose Carol Dweck's research can help us know when, and how, and why to push.

Perhaps he would have found out that learning his job, his success and his joy. Seems what he's learned from the current system is that ultimately it is your responsibility not his. Over the long term how do you see that playing out. Will you be standing over him in middle school, high school, college, on the job? Is he supposed to get the experience again and again that learning is a result of force, but then at some point this morphs into him becoming a self motivated learner and motivated person?


I agree that can be a huge problem and it is one of the reasons we decided to allow our child to radically accelerate. No matter how how well meaning parental pushing and badgering is not an adequate substitute for a sufficiently challenging curriculum and educational environment.

So what happens in Asia where Amy Chua types abound? The bar gets crazy high as parents push their kids even harder every year for that extra half mark so that their kids can come in first in the class/ standard among a sea of hot housed kids. Really, if the kid had any ounce of creativity, all that will be worked out of him at the end of his education. There are " model answers" to memorize for everything from grade 1 onwards. And why? Because if you tried to compose a story on your own, you will make mistakes or the story won't be as polished, so you won't get full marks. There are so many stories of kids writing the same essays for an assignment/exam because they go to the same tuition classes. No room for error is the mantra! This thinking is institutionalized. If schools gave exams according to the grade level, the likelihood is that in many schools, the entire class will score full marks. So the screws have been turning. Its an unofficial truth that grade levels here are at least 1-2 years ahead of western counterparts. What happens if the child can't cope despite draconian means? I shudder to think. On a national scale, where's the creativity?

It wasn't so bad a generation ago when I was growing up. But these days, there are so many horror stories ala Amy Chua that would make any sane person's hair curl. I had no idea when my PG son was younger that I shouldn't talk about what he just did. Little did I know I was making sworn enemies and causing more pain to other kids around us as some mothers stepped to the fore to compete. These days, I'm much wiser and we keep very mum about achievements.

To those of you who're committed to your child's success, and who isn't, it doesn't have to be crazy. It really is obvious where the lines are drawn beyond where a parent should never cross. I see a lot of parents who have confused their egos with their kids', so if their child doesnt do well, they feel personally insulted and they become ruthless at implementation because they feel they've been wronged (by their own child!). True, don't let your child give up. But it doesn't have to happen in the shortest time possible in a continuous, punishing way. Try another method. Short term failure and making mistakes are among the best ways to learn - we should all take advantage of that!