Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Piano lesson complaining - LONG

Montefan, I think you are making a sweeping generalization that parents who do not force their kids to continue an activity for years that they really dislike also do not expect their children to ever step up to a challenge. That certainly has not been true in our family. My kids get no quarter on academic challenges, for example (even the gifted one has a very hard time with foreign language, for example, and there is no discussion of her dropping out or dropping back -- just working harder). And as I stated in previous posts, my kids are turning out very well (the NON-gifted one is on track to graduate from college Phi Beta Kappa, for example). You don't have to be mean to your kids to get good results and responsible adults.

By the way, I have been a manager and business owner as well. And I do not see an association between forcing 7/8 year olds to ocntinue with activities that they have given a few years to and clearly do not want to continue with, and with being a good eomployee. That is just a really big stretch.

I thought maybe I read the first post wrong, so I re-read it and I still interpret it as reading that he's taken the lessons for years. (including several trips to piano camp). And that the change in attitude over lessons co-incised with a change in the parents marital status. I hate to say that. I feel so terrible every time I say it. In which case it's not the usual arguement, which everybody wants to keep referring to, of charachter building and perseverance. It's a quiestion of continuity. Of, when my cousin recently divorced I overheard conversations about kids need comforting. Weither or not they know it they are in a stage of grieving a loss. But at the same time kids. (I wish I could think of a better way to word this so my poor choice of words isn't a straw man concealing the intended meaning). Kids can't be allowed to use this circumstance as an excuse. In this case he has been taking piano, why should that change now just because the dad is gone? That the mother taking the lead in this case despite the kid's protests could be comforting, in theory. Of course, there's something to be said for a fresh start and a new plan, too. There's many angle's to the dangle.

And, you trace this back to quitting piano lessons?

It seems really unfair to all involved (kid, piano teacher, parents) to suggest that any lesson can overcome the problems of a child being in an educational environment where they are learning nothing.

Of course kids can do both and many do. My question is why do we so often hear the suggestion of music lessons as a way to teach gifted kids discipline but we rarely hear drawing lessons advocated in the same way? Is it just because there is a better infrastructure for music lessons or is there something else that motivates this?

Yeah, that's kind of what I suspected you might say. My opinion is that kids are born wanting to learn. If a child turns themselves away from all activities that involve learning or working it is a sign something very significant is broken and wrong in the child's life. Electronics can be a catch 22. The more they do it, the less capable and confident they become, the fewer the opportunities to develop social and emotional resilience... and the more the draw the electronics as a safe zone where the child will never need to grow. Personally rather than trying to address that problem with lessons once or twice a week I'd get rid of electronics and make space for the child to have the sorts of experiences necessary for development of greater competence.


So, is there then an element of breaking his spirit? Eventually he'll see it is for his own good? It doesn't sound like even as it applies only to this isolated activity it hasn't changed his perspective at all. He still thinks people are mean and that it is hard. From my perspective force is an effective way to show kids that learning is unpleasant and working hard is something to avoid unless forced on you.

With a perfectionist kid I think it is better to set up clear terms of the contract to try an activity ahead of time if possible. So, it might be you are committed to your team for the rest of the season, we paid for lessons for the year, etc. Enough time for the kid to give it a fair try, but not an endless stretch where the child feels like they are being punished for wanting to try something new.


I agree this is a problem. However, I see as really inches from the parents engaging in attempting to force a child to develop self discipline. Rescuing a child from consequences is not a lot different from creating situations to force consequences. Both of these things are about parents taking away responsibility that rests within the child. I'm sure both come from a desire to help the child but both are misguided and miss the fundamental point that as parents we do not have the power force our children to learn. When we get engaged in an oppositional struggle in an attempt to force the child to develop character traits, we have lost the greatest asset we have as parents which is to be trusted guides.


From the way you are describing him now a realistic self image might be something like "I'm smart but lazy and fearful. Mostly I just watch TV and play video games. I don't do a lot and the few things I accomplish I only do after crying and having them forced on me." While that might be realistic I'm not really thinking that you want him thinking that about himself. So, are you saying the problem is that right now he thinks he's good at everything and this will show him he's not? Or that he thinks he's good at nothing and this will show him that he is?

Good point. It can be easy when kids are young to get stuck in a fearful place which can lead to unfairly labeling kids with character traits like too lazy to try and then imagining a terrible future where they never grow up to be responsible people. Even if we only do that silently in our heads it can be damaging because it can guide us to pushing unnecessarily and whether we speak our thoughts or not kids, especially gifted ones, can be very good at picking up on that. I'd be much less worried about a six year old not working hard then I would about them believing they were a disappointment to their parents because they don't work hard.

PTP- I find your take on all of this very interesting. Do you not require certain things of your kids? Mine is expected to do certain things- try new foods when presented, use polite manners at the table, be a part of the team and do chores at home, keep his commitments, brush his teeth, change his underwear, give to charity etc.

Right now, his self image very black and white that he is either perfect or terrible at every single thing. Even as a tiny baby we saw hints of this. He never crawled, he never even toddled. He just got up and literally ran across the room. He spoke the same way, a bit of a late talker but spoke in paragraphs instead of words.

He did far better last year with a better academic situation, a nurturing teacher who knew when to push and when to fall back and was willing to dabble a little in new things and see what would happen. But he would shut down quickly with any hint of criticism, critique or "how about you try...."

He wanted to play baseball and begged us to sign him up. He wanted to quit after the first game because he was the only one who didn't get one hit. I told him he needed to finish the season because he made a commitment to the team. Would you have let him quit?

He is getting better at changing the message in his head. I will hear him say to himself "I just have to practice, I just have to practice" under his breath when he is faced with something new. We went bowling yesterday for the first time- his idea. He threw one ball, fell to the floor crying and insisted he was incapable. I stood next to him, showed him how to move his hand and helped him, all while he cried and told me he'd never hit a pin. The crying and freaking only lasted 2 more attempts. He played two games, doubled his score the second time and was thrilled. In the car he said "I just have to practice!" Should I have let him give up after one attempt simply because he was upset and didn't want to try again?

Electronics are easy to blame, sure. But we have a no TV and no computer during school week rule in our house. So that doesn't really address the problem or provide an easy out to it. We play hours of board games, read aloud, bake, play with the dogs, ride bikes, build Lego etc. That doesn't mean he has a passion for any of those things.



Sorry for the thread hijack to the OP!

No, I would not have let him quit baseball after the first game. I would have told him that he wanted to sign up, and he needed to finish the season out. But at the end of the season, if he wanted to quit I absolutely would have let him. Nor would I have encouraged my child to quit after throwing their first bowling ball... but if they didn't want to bowl again after that outing, I probably would not have pushed it. Although I might have pointed out that bowling is a frequent birthday party activity, so he might want to go a few more times with the family to develop some basic level of skill.

D15 begged for dance lessons at about 5, and we signed her up. 2 lessons into it, she knew she hated it (and no surprise to us, it didn't really seem like it would be her thing). At the end of the paid set of lessons, we let her drop it. No harm that I can see, she has a pretty good amount of stick-to-it-iveness now as a 15 year old.

I just feel like it is hard to have perspective when your kids are still so young. Sure they are gifted, but I think that is all the more reason to treat them with respect and allow them some autonomy in choosing their extracurricular activities. It is especially true with my gifted child that if I want her to treat me with respect, I have to do the same. My message to my kids has been pick it and stick for at least a season/year. But let them explore their options, within reason.

I believe in limits for health and safety reasons (I'd extend that to clean underwear) and I believe in the importance of respectful behavior (hey let's put clean underwear there too!) including learning manners.

Where we may part company is that I believe the one of the least important areas of parenting is in handing down rules and acting to police them. If it came to the point where that's where I saw the place I would help my child grow I would feel I was failing and needing to regroup and change my approach.

The window in which we have the power to force kids to comply is a very narrow one. Sure a big part of parent of parenting in the early years is ensuring safety through a variety of means including rules. But, ultimately what really matters in the people our children will happen in the choices they make. I believe our best bet in preparing children to make these choices comes from working with them to help them develop self awareness of their own goals and supporting them in recognizing WHY it makes sense to make particular choices.

My hope for kids is that they will become enthusiastic life long learners and capable people. Force can have a huge way of backfiring on both of those goals. When we take responsibility for our kid's learning we are taking something away from them. It is telling the child you do not believe they will learn unless they are forced. Punishment or making people feel bad doesn't make them want to learn.


I addressed this idea in an earlier post. I think it is a great idea to make it clear the nature of the commitment and let the child decide in advance. That might be play for the semester or the season to allow for time for the activity to work out. I see this as really different from adding on a requirement midway through the activity or giving unrealistic limits (such as stop saying it is hard for a month and you can quit).

Again, though I think the real parenting doesn't come in setting the limit - that's the least of it. The bigger part is in helping the kid connect to that good coach or teacher who can help. And, in providing support to help them be a success and when that doesn't work in giving the kid have a safe place to fall knowing you are on their side rooting them on (which is difficult to do when you are primarily in the position of policing and enforcing limits). So, I'd focus on making an agreement up front and letting that agreement be the boss rather than being pushed into a position of conflict where any negative feelings he has are your fault.


The lesson came not from forcing him to bowl, but from supporting his desire to try bowling and then hearing he was discouraged. And, then in offering him the information and tools he needed to manage the situation. Setting the rule "you must bowl" or "you must bowl until you say it is not hard" wouldn't have gotten him to where he had that wonderful realization.


Take it for what it is worth, but it has been my observation for some kids it takes a lot longer detox than five days as week. And, really even if the academics are totally easy school can be exhausting so it maybe unrealistic to expect to see passion on a weeknight. It may take extended periods of time to get to the place where he's setting goals for himself and working through the hard parts to get there. Not easy answer though because I understand realistically with extracurriculars and school it can be hard for a lot of kids to get to that place. If you add electronics that narrows the window even further.

CAMom do you see any generation shift on these matters? I can't imagine my parent's generation extending any energy to feeling like they had to force children to develop the ability to be people capable of feeling competent to learn. It was simply assumed you had responsibilities to the family. It was simply assumed that through your life of playing in the woods and caring for siblings that you would learn to take responsibility. Do you agree there has been some shift? If so what do you attribute that to?

I don't think anyone here has advocated for letting kids give up after a first failed attempt at something. So I'm not sure why assumptions that this is the case keep getting thrown out. The thread is getting long, and I kind of feel like some people aren't reading posts carefully, and then inflame the discussion by making incorrect assumptions about what's been said. If I've inflamed it, I apologize.

Again, my point in this thread has been that:

* If a child is consistently unhappy in an extracurricular activity, and

* Participating wasn't his idea

the child is being forced/pushed into something, and it may do more harm than good.



Val