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    My DS8 has been taking piano for several years. He's never loved it, but he has done well. I can't really say how good he is as I am not a musician, but he's been to a couple of Suzuki piano camps and I get the sense that he excels. Regardless of his level of achievement it's very obvious even to a layperson that he is talented in this area.

    He practices anywhere from 20 minutes to 40 minutes a day (so not a lot), and this has been the case for years. However, lately his complaining about piano has reached a fever pitch.

    I took last week off from work and thought we would have the opportunity to get back on track without being rushed. I don't think it helped. Yesterday afternoon he refused to slow down, got frustrated, and I got frustrated, and the last 10 minutes of the lesson was done with him in tears.

    I know I sound pretty heartless, but prior to this I was trying things like giving him pennies that chould be exchanged for leftover Starbursts and I also tried limiting his practice sessions to 15 minutes, with the idea of improving his attitude and gradually working up to longer sessions. Both of these approaches worked, but only very short term. He became overly focused on the candy and the time left in the lessons. Rather than improving his attitude and making him less resistant, he just wanted MORE pennies/Starbursts and time concessions.

    In the last two years I have gone back to work and we have moved away from the Suzuki approach due to my time limitations. He prefers to work from a list, rather than having me sit there. I prefer this too, which is why we moved away from the Suzuki. But the problem with that is then he plays too fast. ALso, he needs SOME help or he will just say "I don't know how to do it" if he is asked to practice something that was just introduced to him.

    He has experienced some other changes recently. He started at a school for highly gifted children this year. They definitely don't push, but he's probably working harder than he did at his Montessori school. He also goes to before school care, whereas we used to have a f/t sitter. His dad and I recently separated, but he seems to be taking it well.

    Here are my current thoughts and I welcome any advice:

    1. In general, I am leaning towards a "lay down the law" approach. I tried to make it easier / fun and I feel like he took advantage (obviously not consciously but it didn't work). It seems as though when I give an inch he wants to take a mile and 100% consistency of expectations is a better approach with him

    2. I have already told him that he will now ALWAYS go first practicing (his brother plays too). I feel like the complaining is worse if he has downtime to get it into his head that he is going to do something else. He accepted this rather well.

    3. One thing that has backfired is if I say, "You need to slow down to play this, or no movie tonight." He gets overly anxious that he will lose the movie and melts down. It took me a while to realize this as he is not normally over anxious. I think both the carrot and the stick have proven to work poorly with him, but what do I do when he simply refuses to play at an appropriate rate? Just unemotionally turn on the metronome? The problem with this is then we have: Play too fast. Play second time too fast. Play with metronome. SO now he's played the piece THREE TIMES before getting to the point where he can get anything out of it and we can start working on something. Then he complains that his lesson is "too long". Maybe I just need to tough this out for a few days until he realizes the cause and effect?

    4. I think he is working on too many pieces. He's currently working on 3 and none of them are near polished. He doesn't have enough time for this, and it doesn't leave any time for practicing his prior pieces. I plan to speak to his teacher about his. I think they are all for upcoming competitions/concerts, but it would have been better to use the same piece, multiple times. Or maybe introduce a couple of real easy pieces over the course of the year that don't need to get to the polished stage, just to encourage his note-reading skills.

    5. I made CDs and ipod playlists of all the peices he and his brother are workign on. DS8 reads music poorly and I think switching away form the Suzuki method has been frustrating for him. I have tried to find group theory instruction, but there's just nothing available of any decent quality. Over the summer I will hve them take an extra lesson to wok towards mitigating this deficit. But I don't want to push him at this stage.

    6. I think his half hour weekly lesson with his teacher is inadequate. He's 8 and his lesson is back to back with his bother's. SO even if he attitude was ideal, he's getting < 25 minutes of instruction. I don't think this is anywhere near enough time. Frequently he doesn't play all the pieces he is working on. I don't think it's practical to change this right now, so that brings me back to #4 - he needs to be working on only 1 or 2 pieces.

    We are having a tough year and all I want to acomplish between now and September is for him to make *some* progress and for his attitutde to improve. I am not pushing towards any goals, I just want him to have a serious extra-curricular. If he quits now, I think it will be all over. Also, if I let him quit his brother will want to quit too. Given that he is 8, gets minimal homwork, and does minimal chores I really can't see myself as "pushing". But my son seems genuinely distressed.

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    Why are you making him do this? Sounds to me like you are well beyond the point where he will EVER love this instrument. Continuing so his brother will continue does not seem like a good reason to me.

    My gifted child is 15 now. One of the things I have learned over the years is that she has many talents. But if she hates an activity, talent does not really matter. She HAS tried many things over the years, and has only settled on her most serious interests in the past two years. Piano was among her activities in her early years, too. We have encouraged her to continue to do something musical, but she has settled on choir/voice instead of piano (although she still plays for fun sometimes, which she never did while taking lessons). So that is another option -- if you are very keen on music, allow him to maybe switch to some other instument or voice.

    I am also not sure that kids (even profoundly gifted ones) need a "serious extra-curricular" activity at the age of 8. I try to expose my daughter to a variety of activities. As long as she finishes a season/year in something, I have allowed her to switch if she desires. The one exception is if we have to buy expensive equipment. Then I have asked her before the purchase to commit to two seasons or years to make the investment more worthwhile.

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    Originally Posted by intparent
    Why are you making him do this? Sounds to me like you are well beyond the point where he will EVER love this instrument.

    Originally Posted by intparent
    I am also not sure that kids (even profoundly gifted ones) need a "serious extra-curricular" activity at the age of 8.

    I disagree about the need for an serious extracurricular and it's something I feel strongly about. So there's that. I also think it's such a small imposition on his time. Even assuming it offers him NO benefit (which I disagree with) what's the big deal? We all have to do things we don't like. He's not unduly burdened with these tasks. True, he's only eight. But it's 3.5 hours a week. He is NOT in a pressure cooker environment. His music school is very casual, his teacher is very casual, nobody cares how well he does, I just want to see progress and a reasonable attitude. And given that the imposition on him (in terms of both time and effort) is so minimal, I can't help but think it must be due to something I have done and I'm wondering if I can "fix" it.

    I should also mention that this attitude has appeared in other areas, albeit to a lesser degree. It's not a cause for concern, but I do feel like he tends to shirk responsibility a little. Not to a degree that's inappropraite for an 8 y.o., but the attitude isn't strictly limited to the piano. For example, if I ask hime to help me out with sock matching I always get a little push back. And he probably averages less than one chore a day, so it's not like my expectations are unreasonable.

    In the long run, I am not averse to him quitting. But I have two reasons to not allow it at this time:

    1. I have no way to replace the piano with another high quality extracurricular at this time. Maybe in September. I like the suggestion of allowing him to switch to another instrument.

    2. I feel like his attitude has devolved into something unreasonable and I don't want to indulge it. I would like to see an improvement in his attitude towards task he percieves as unpleasant before I consider letting him quit piano.

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    I agree with intparent - when I read your post the first thing that came into my mind was what occured to me when I was a child - my parents were adament that I take piano NO MATTER WHAT along with playing tennis- for piano...this went on for 3 years - by the end of the 3rd year I loathed playing, my parents did everything from threaten to awards to get me to practice - I was pretty good but I hated it with a passion and the more I was forced to do it, the more I hated it. I finally flat out refused and they got tired of the constant arguing and thank god I was allowed to stop. For tennis, I was sent to tennis camp after tennis camp every single summer and was forced to play on a team - I was made to play for many, many years - I was very good and was ranked in the state by my early teenage years but I absolutely despised the sport. Finally when I went into highschool I WAS allowed to pick what I wanted to do - my loves were art and swimming. To this day, I absolutely despise tennis and piano with a passion and want nothing to do with either one - all the bad memories of being forced into doing something I never wanted to do come back when the subject is even brought up.

    When our child was born, I told my husband that I refuse to force him into doing something he does not want to do as far as activities go...we decided that we would offer suggestions for activities and watch to see his interests - we also try to expose him to a wide variety of things and have allowed him to switch. It has worked out very well - he has found a large variety of new and interesting activities to try and do all without forcing him into something he does not want to do.

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    What is your goal in making him take piano lessons? Can it be accomplished on another instrument besides piano?

    I enrolled both of my older children in piano lessons when they each turned 5. My daughter loved it and practiced on her own. It was a constant battle with my son. I finally decided to make him an offer - pick any instrument that required musicality and reading music (no just drums, although he could also play drums in addition to another instrument). He was thrilled and chose clarinet. He played in the school band through his Freshman year when the conductor forced him to choose between missing band practice and missing climbing practice. He quit band, but he still plays his clarinet on his own.

    Perhaps your son hates the piano. I know I hated piano. I begged my mom to let me take violin lessons, but she made me take piano through my senior year in high school. I don't play at all now, because it is associated with so many angry, unhappy feelings.

    As to your #4 and #6 - my sister and I had 45 minute lessons. She practiced 2 hours a day without being pressured to do so. I sat and complained at the piano until the egg timer went off for my required time of practicing. My mother was intricately involved with my practicing - telling me which pieces to do when, disagreeing with the approach of the teacher, and inputting her opinion in the way I played my songs. It made me hate piano not just for the piano but because it was not "mine" but was about my mom pushing herself on me in something I hated to begin with. From my own experience, I'd suggest finding ways to pull back and leave this between your son and his teacher so that it's about the music, not about the dynamic between you and him.

    My advice is to "pick the hill you want to die on", because this has become a struggle of wills where someone is going to lose. Is it really worth winning to force an 8-year-old to play an instrument he doesn't like? If there is another way to reach your overall goal without making this a power struggle, I'd highly encourage you to get creative to solve it to get what you need out of it and still let your son feel like he has some say over his life.


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    What is a "high quality" extracurricular? My teen, for example, spent most of last summer collecting insects. It definitely took more than 3.5 hours per week, especially the identification part. We bought a couple of books, and found some websites. I did buy some materials (boxes, net, pins, mounting board, etc.), a total of around $200. I think she got a lot out of that activity (and when she took biology in school this fall, she found the identification process they worked on very easy after spending the summer working on bug ids!). It has helped feed her strong interest in biology, and this year she decided on her own to study for the USA Biology Olympiad test.

    My advice is to be careful here. You can win the battle, but lose the war. While there is no question when the chips are down who is the parent in our house (eg, at chore time!), I also know that it is possible to damage your relationship with your child by forcing them to do things that are your interest, and not theirs.

    FYI, I was an avid clarinet player in junior high and high school. I practiced for hours every day because I loved it. I gave lessons, too, and had students who loved it and some who hated it. I think it is very difficult to move a kid who hates an instrument to liking it. Even though I found great joy, and developed very high skills at an instrument, I have not forced my kids to try to do the same. They tried instrumental music, and it didn't "take" with either of them. I am fine with that -- as teens and young adults, they have found their passions and excel at them.

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    Belle and ABQMom,

    I appreciate your insights.

    My goal is to allow him to be challenged and to internalize the cause and effect relationship between effort and results so that when he does find his own passions he will be able to pursue them in a manner that will allow him to excel. As I mentioned, I am not a musician and have no dreams of him being one.

    He's not forced to compete. He's not forced to be on a team. He only performs 1-3 times/year and exhibits no anxiety over it. I understand that you both have very negative memories of being forced to do something you don't like and I guess I have trouble understanding the why? of that. I mean, I can understand it in a situation where a child's life revolves around the parents goals of musical/athletic achievement. But that's not the case here. Again, we are talking 3.5 hours/week. Total. It seems to me that if someone really "hates" that, then it's not really about the task at hand. There's something else going on. I'd like to try and identify that and change it, if I can. And even if I can't change it and he does end up quitting piano in the near future, I'd like to avoid repeating the pattern in the future.

    Regardless of the time commitment, I don't think he finds piano innately unpleasant. Both he and his brother were working on Solfeggietto and I stopped it with him because he just would not slow down to learn it properly and he needed to work on other pieces. In restrospect, this was probably a mistake. But he still likes to play the first two lines. He enjoys listening to Pachelbel's Canon in D and I asked him if he would like to learn it and he responded positively. He only complains about the piano when he is asked to play - he doesn't bring it up at other times. I am not ready to consider this a lost cause...yet. I would first like to give it one more go and identify where we went wrong.


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    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    We are having a tough year.... I am not pushing towards any goals, I just want him to have a serious extra-curricular. If he quits now, I think it will be all over. Also, if I let him quit his brother will want to quit too. Given that he is 8, gets minimal homwork, and does minimal chores I really can't see myself as "pushing". But my son seems genuinely distressed.

    Well...from what you've written, it sounds like you're pushing pretty hard.

    I'm not sure why little children need to have a "serious extracurricular" forced on them. They're little children! They have their whole lives to be serious. If your child is completely self-motivated, great. If not, well...not great.

    Also, and trying to say this gently, sometimes parents lose sight of the fact that their kids aren't their property. Your kids have a right to mold themselves into their own visions of who they want to be. From what you wrote, it sounds like you're satisfying your own ideas about what you want your son(s) to be.

    Extracurriculars are supposed to be fun activities, of the child's choosing, that foster healthy development and help them learn to make their own decisions.* If you have to bribe or threaten your kid constantly to do them, you've turned what was meant to be something fun into another adult-imposed chore and/or more homework.

    Giftedness is about an ability to learn, not about forced achievement at a young age.

    Val

    * I agree completely with posters who require their kids to stick with something for a certain period of time if the child's desire to do the activity requires the parental units to invest in expensive equipment.

    Last edited by Val; 12/27/10 09:14 AM. Reason: Clarity
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    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    Belle and ABQMom,

    I appreciate your insights.

    My goal is to allow him to be challenged and to internalize the cause and effect relationship between effort and results so that when he does find his own passions he will be able to pursue them in a manner that will allow him to excel. As I mentioned, I am not a musician and have no dreams of him being one.
    ...

    I would first like to give it one more go and identify where we went wrong.

    Perhaps you've answered your question - this isn't his passion. Perhaps a better goal forward would be to help him find his passion and then teach him those very valuable lessons when they are applied to something he likes. Otherwise, that isn't the lesson he's going to learn. He's going to learn to NEVER agree to try something new, because if you hate it, you're stuck anyway. He will become less adventurous, less willing to explore new options for fear of the misery that will follow if he finds out he doesn't like it.

    One of the best things I've learned in the course of parenting is that not every endeavor is worth finishing and not every battle is worth winning.

    I understand your motivation, and it is vital for kids to learn commitment and discipline and perseverence - and all those wonderful character traits one gains from sticking through the rough patches to get to the intended goal.

    I did refuse to let my son quit climbing one year and even made him go back and apologize to his coach after he'd quit and stormed out of the gym. Why? Because HE wanted to climb over everything else, but he'd hit a roadblock physically and wanted to quit rather than face the pressure of his coach and of his own fears. He made it past that roadblock and earned a berth at nationals that year and thanked me for not letting him quit.

    Quitting something we don't enjoy, when we're talking about extracurricular pursuits or hobbies, is actually a good thing, because it doesn't waste our precious time on something that brings us little reward.

    That is very different than quitting something we enjoy because the goal seems to difficult to reach.

    Just some thoughts to consider as you decide how to move forward to a better place for you and your son. It's tough, and I feel for you.

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    Originally Posted by ABQMom
    Perhaps you've answered your question - this isn't his passion. Perhaps a better goal forward would be to help him find his passion and then teach him those very valuable lessons when they are applied to something he likes. Otherwise, that isn't the lesson he's going to learn. He's going to learn to NEVER agree to try something new, because if you hate it, you're stuck anyway. He will become less adventurous, less willing to explore new options for fear of the misery that will follow if he finds out he doesn't like it.

    That's very helpful, thank you. I'm still resistant to the idea of letting him quit, but this resonates with me. I'm not going to make any decisions on this until he's been back at school for a week.

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    Originally Posted by kcab
    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    Regardless of the time commitment, I don't think he finds piano innately unpleasant. Both he and his brother were working on Solfeggietto and I stopped it with him because he just would not slow down to learn it properly and he needed to work on other pieces. In restrospect, this was probably a mistake. But he still likes to play the first two lines. He enjoys listening to Pachelbel's Canon in D and I asked him if he would like to learn it and he responded positively. He only complains about the piano when he is asked to play - he doesn't bring it up at other times. I am not ready to consider this a lost cause...yet. I would first like to give it one more go and identify where we went wrong.
    To me, this sounds like someone who does actually like playing the piano. In that case, why not back way, way off and trust him come back to it on his own? Or, at some time when neither of you are feeling stressed, get him talking about what he likes and dislikes about music and see if he has any ideas about things that he'd like to do. Maybe he would like to spend a little time composing instead of practicing? Perhaps let him take a sabbatical/vacation and work on his own direction in music?

    The composing thing sounds kind of promising.

    I think part of the problem is that he is at an awkward stage in terms of his musical ability. He plays by ear so well and it comes very easy to him. So he is easily frustrated with reading music. But if he won't read music, he can't learn on his own. So that's another reason I'm reluctant to just let it go. I feel like we just need to get over the hump. It's been a while now, though, and if I don't see an improvement (in attitude) soon he will have to give it up. But again, I'd like to try and see if there's anything I can do before taking this final step. My time limitations make it unlikely that we could get back into the swing of it if he quits now.

    Maybe I should talk to his teacher about the possibility of letting him just work on super easy pieces for a while? So that he WILL backslide a little, but I should just accept that and not sweat it? And then maybe when he can read music more fluently he can go back to more challenging stuff? Maybe in September? I'm pretty sure the complaining would stop if he was working on easier pieces (although in general I don't think he is working above his ability).

    As you can see, I am VERY reluctant to just walk away form this. If it's going to be a battle of wills, then I will have to. But I'd like to make SURE we are really at that stage and there are no other possibilities. Not that he has to love it. I have no problem with requiring things. But if he's going to be emotional about it, some thign has to change.


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    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    My goal is to allow him to be challenged and to internalize the cause and effect relationship between effort and results so that when he does find his own passions he will be able to pursue them in a manner that will allow him to excel.

    In addition to learning he's stuck and can never quit something he's not enjoying I see many other possible lessons he's learning. These include: My mom thinks I'm lazy, my mom thinks the way I want to play isn't good, if I don't do everything 100% I'm no good, learning anything that requires effort is painful, I'll never be able to focus in a way that is as good as what my mom expects, what I want is ignored, and my way of approaching things is wrong.

    Over the long term it matters not even a little bit if he could play the piano when he was eight. What really matters is what he's learning about himself as a learner and a person. It seems to me right now he's getting a lot of negative messages about that can be baggage that can be difficult to overcome. I can say at this point in my life I barely remember anything I learned about piano or music in the six years of lessons, but I definitely remember the intense feeling that I was a disappointment and that my way of approaching this instrument didn't measure up to what my "talent" suggested it should.

    As a result of my experience I took a totally different approach with music lessons for my family. My responsibility is to pay for lessons and provide transportation and to be an enthusiastic audience when you request. If you have problems and request help I will provide it. Your responsibility is to practice a reasonable amount (approximately five times a week) and to work with your teacher in a way that is respectful. If you take care of your responsibilities I pay for lessons. If you don't that's okay, take what you learned from it and move on to something else you will enjoy more. I can't say it would be the case for every child, but eight years later our student remains a devoted, self motivated music student. It is a passion. If it hadn't been and he moved on that would have been good too.

    If you have to be involved in rewards or punishment to control his learning you've already lost the value of the activity.

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    JaneSmith,
    You have already lots of good advice.

    Fear these may sound harsh but they are to the point and I believe many now-adults remember their painful piano lesson days and wished some of these ideas for when they were children. (You probably do these things already so this is just a list.)

    - let the teacher be the one to criticize and correct the child
    - the parents/family - to cheer on any little success at all, yay, you did 20 minutes today, yay you finished that piece, yay I've never heard that piece played so fast but it sure sounds neat and different
    - ask your gifted child, what do they think, how do they feel about their playing?
    - what songs would you like to try?
    - lets explore the different kind of music out there, which type do you like?
    - for something completely different, lets look up what a blues scale sounds like smile
    - there are some simple workbooks, 1-2 pages a week, for example, some comes with CD that work through music theory (very easy stuff for child to think they're are mastering it)

    My child plays / practices with the piano, creates own music, and "plays" and learns for about 2-4 weeks, then we're on a sabbatical. The interest for us is not a serious passion but an interesting hobby. For those children who love it, they will practice on their own, but even then they may need a pause. Some parents have their children in lessons for 1 term, then off 1 term, on another term.

    My gifted child is very sensitive to criticism but is able to handle it from gentle caring teachers quite well. Do you sense your child might be also? However, if I told my child played too fast or the beat is off, etc, it seems to immediately pierce the heart. frown Instead, I just ask, what does the child think of their playing? And when the child is honest with themselves (this takes time) and acknowledges their own imperfection, I think we are really making strides. Then I say, you are very insightful and understand yourself. Keep at it. I don't catch the child for not admitting it, because not everyone is ready every time to admit their own mistakes. smile

    Just one last thought. Do you sense your own intensity in the matter? Do you think your children sense your intensity?

    Best of luck.

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    Originally Posted by jesse
    Just one last thought. Do you sense your own intensity in the matter? Do you think your children sense your intensity?

    Best of luck.

    Yes. It's my intensity, not so much my intensity with regards to this matter. But of course, I don't know exactly how he interprets it. The other day he was struggling with a tiny portion of a piece that was new to him. I broke it down into just two measures. Finally he did it right hand while I played left hand and when we did it he was all "Yay! NO MISTAKES!" SO he does enjoy his sucesses and perhaps they should be celebrated more. My style is to not dwell on successes or failures, but when something is wrong I DO point it out.

    It's very possible that because I am pressed to for time and because previously I had to work with both children every day I pushed for efficiency. I say "efficiency" not performance becasue I don't think I've ever given either child a hard time for making mistakes or having touble getting something. But I've certainly been guilty of getting frustrated because something that should take 10 minutes takes 20. I'm talking about something taking a long time becasue they refuse to slow down or look at the music. I don't have any expectations for how long it should take them to learn something.

    It honestly never occured to me that when he plays too fast and gets called on it it might hurt his feelings. It's obvious to me that he's doing it to rush through his practice, but I guess it's still possible that criticizing it could hurt his feelings.

    I don't know if it's practical to let the teacher be the only one to correct and criticize just because he is so young. But I am certainly willing to give it a shot. I think I will still have to show him how to do certain things, but I can demonstrate only. If he does it one way, then jsut do it again and if we only get through one tiny portion of a piece then so be it.

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    Hi,

    I played trumpet in high school. It was my choice of instrument and I was completely responsible for my own practice. I loved it and was evidently quite talented at it. I was encouraged to pursue it as a profession, but long term I knew my heart wasn't in it. I desperately miss participating in music though, more than a decade later, and plan to join a choir this year. Boy did I love it during the years I played. Music is such an amazing way to be able to communicate as a kid, when the words, thoughts and feelings you have won't all come together in the way you might hope! To give kids the chance to enjoy music is such a gift.

    I have to say that I completely agree with passthepotatoes. I feel there so much scope for damaging your relationship with him in insisting on something like this for the sake of it. I feel extracurricular activities should be about exploring a passion, especially (and I don't know if this is the case for your ds or not) if that isn't found in the classroom. I get needing to learn to persist, but there are other ways to achieve this - and I think the lesson is more relevant to gaining an understanding that sometimes you have to do some boring bits to reach a goal that is ultimately meaningful to you (achieving grades to go on to a university course you want to do, practicing every day because you want to be accepted to a music academy, working in an entry level role in a field you love, persisting in the extracurricular activity you love, but is now a challenge, etc) rather than learning to persist in something that is of little personal worth.

    Enjoying playing music is such a gift in its own right and I would encourage him to choose an instrument he is interested in and give him the space to love it - encourage practice but don't supervise it, offer assistance if he wants it, enjoy his performances, get him involved in a band or an orchestra. If he does find he loves it, he's likely to practice - you can't play well without it. If he doesn't, so be it. Find something else and take some pressure of the both of you.

    Good luck.

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    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    He only performs 1-3 times/year and exhibits no anxiety over it.


    Whose idea is it for him to perform?

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    I mean, I can understand it in a situation where a child's life revolves around the parents goals of musical/athletic achievement. But that's not the case here. Again, we are talking 3.5 hours/week. Total.


    This is where I can see the possibility some pushiness. You've defined the amount of time and you've decided that it isn't very long. Did anyone consult your son?

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    It seems to me that if someone really "hates" that, then it's not really about the task at hand. There's something else going on.

    When I was a kid, I had to do something for only one hour every week. I hated it. Detested it. Dreaded it. One hour on a Sunday morning was enough to make me miserable about it. The Sunday before I moved out was the last time I ever did this activity.

    Liking/hating something is up to the person who has to do it. No one can make a person like something by forcing it on him, and it's not really up to you to define how much is too much here.

    It's very easy to define "pushy parents" as the ones who force a child to do something for hours every day. But this behavior is just the extreme end of the spectrum. If you're forcing your son to do an extracurricular activity that he doesn't want to do, you're being pushy about it.

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    Regardless of the time commitment, I don't think he finds piano innately unpleasant. Both he and his brother were working on Solfeggietto and I stopped it with him because he just would not slow down to learn it properly and he needed to work on other pieces.

    A lot of what I've read seems to be about about you and what you want, not what your son wants. It's good that you realize you made a mistake, but the you-aspect of all this is coming out very strongly throughout this thread.

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    He only complains about the piano when he is asked to play - he doesn't bring it up at other times.


    Maybe he isn't interested and doesn't think about it at other times.

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    I feel like we just need to get over the hump.


    There is no "we." There is just "he."

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    It's been a while now, though, and if I don't see an improvement (in attitude) soon he will have to give it up. But again, I'd like to try and see if there's anything I can do before taking this final step. My time limitations make it unlikely that we could get back into the swing of it if he quits now.


    Sounds like he wants to give it up and you don't want him to. If he wants to play the piano, he'll do it without you --- passion comes from within. No one can put it there.

    Val



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    I know this is not what the OP has in mind... but my D loves musicals, and I have started giving her piano books of musical and movie music (just gave her Aida for Christmas). She (who disliked piano lessons before she quit them) loves to play these. She has mastered some quite difficult Lord of the Rings and Phantom of the Opera music in the last year. She now goes and plays to take a break from studying. Absolutely no one is timing her practice, but there are days when she spends an hour on it (I sometimes have to ask her to go study her schoolwork, and suggest that she reward herself after 45 minutes of study with more piano time!). I enjoy listening, too smile

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    Ha. I just disappointed our son's piano teacher by telling him that our son won't back for a couple more weeks, which will be about four weeks total of no lessons and zero practicing. We have these breaks a few times each year and they really do WONDERS for our son's attitude... and, by extension, his playing ability.

    Our son started piano lessons (largely at his own prompting) right after he turned five and for the first few days he loved every minute of it. And then he made the grand discovery that he doesn't enjoy practicing. We've had more than our share of knock-down, drag-out "arguments" over practicing, but somehow got through these and he improved.

    With him, it really is just the practice. He enjoys playing for others, volunteers each year to play at a couple of variety shows and doesn't get too worked up about the more formal recitals. He loves to play side-by-side with his mom, who's much more adept than I am -- and that definitely makes his practice time survivable. There have also been times where his entire practice is spent working on improvisation. He'll get started and then 20-25 minutes later he'll come up for air, realizing that he got a little side-tracked. Some of these excursions have been more aurally pleasant than others, but they almost always end with a happy kid (& a tickled dad), especially when I tell him to turn off the light & close the lid, allowing him to totally blow off the structured portions of his practice.

    He's four years into his pie-anna larnin' (sorry, we watched Yosemite Sam & Bugs Bunny on pie-anna last night) and still going strong. He still plays waaaay too quickly most of the time, and practice sessions often run twice as long as needed because he won't slow down, preferring to use brute force at whatever breakneck speed he chooses.

    Piano has been an interesting lesson for both of us -- complete with patience, persistence, yelling, etc -- and while I recognize that it's hard/impossible to force a love of something onto children, I suppose I am providing mandatory exposure.

    Music has been one of the only real challenges in this kid's life, so despite his chronic protestations, he's stuck with it for now. Allowing him to quit because he couldn't/wouldn't master a given piece just wasn't an avenue I wished to explore.

    The biggest challenge for me was allowing him a more relaxed practice schedule than what the teacher expected. Mr. Teacher wants 30 minutes, five times per week, plus the weekly lesson, which normally lasts 45 minutes. Our son, however, typically only gets in three decent practices of 20-25 minutes -- but continues to progress so I leave well enough alone.

    Don't forget about the extended breaks... we both come back quite refreshed. If your son is as good as you say, the breaks shouldn't hurt him a bit!


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    Dear Jane smith, I'm so sorry to hear about the possible divorce. That is truly a big let down, even if it's better. Here's just another opinion. Maybe not even a modern or a popular one. I hope I'm not twisting what I'm learning through the nurtured heart approach, but when circumstances change kids start probing every limit around looking for something stable. You see where I'm going with this. Get yourself togeather and decide how you're going to take leadership in your family. You've got a lot on your plate right now. It's not wrong for you to be in charge of your children. It could be wrong at times when you're out of line. How much experimenting are you going to give your kid's freedom to try when they are teenagers? How can you root yourself and establish a workable relationship right now that will see you through that? I know that statement will bring out people's views and what worked for them. You know how they have been raised so far. You're going to (possibly, sorry) be a single mother with teenage boys. You're going to want for them to trust your judgement. Not to add more weight to this piano decision, but that's what I'm seeing. Also you really want to comfort them, right now especially. So yeah, making it easy on them is not a bad idea. Then you can stick with it. Keep consistent. And not be in the role of a bully. Is it still a lesson if he plays by ear along with the cd for the entire time assigned?


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    Just read what Dandy said. Scheduled breaks is an awesome idea. My yoga teacher told me her students always come back better after taking a break.


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    If I let my kid choose everything for himself (@ age 8), he'd eat nothing but ice cream, pizza and chocolate, and he'd be wildly successful at video games. And he'd likely never brush his teeth... or bathe.

    Perhaps one difference in my approach is that I don't consider piano to be an extra-curricular activity at all. It is very curricular in my book.

    So... he is required to eat all sorts of vegetables, brush his teeth, limit sweets, bathe regularly, and do his homework... and practice piano.

    Joining the band at school, however, was entirely up to him, as was the choice of instrument (other than forbidding violin -- sorry!). Practicing for that class was his responsibility, and I did not impose myself in any way. I thought this was a good compromise, again showing myself to be a kind and benevolent dictator. (Ditto for tennis and kung-fu.)


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    Others have said it, I will agree: let the problem-solving take place between the piano teacher and the child. You can identify problems that you see in home practice and in motivation by way of letting the teacher know what's going on, but then leave it. If the teacher is any good, they will find solutions. And if not, you might find a different teacher who motivates your child.

    The fast practicing, for instance, may be easily solved if the teacher gives the child a metronome and tells him how fast to practice. It will almost undoubtedly not be solved by parental hovering.

    I agree with prev posters: forcing him will guarantee that he hates it forever. IMHO it would be better to change teachers, change approach, change instrument, change to social music-making rather than solo-- anything rather than turn him off to an entire art form.

    DeeDee

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    Val and passthepotatoes,

    I think your responses are very mean-spirited and can't understand the point of posting them. They are not constructive at all and you both seem to reading way too much into my posts (For instance, every kid who takes piano does at least one recital a year. Why would anyone who has ever had a piano lesson or had a child who had a piano lesson even question that?). Passthepotatoes if you took piano for six years and can barely remember anything then maybe you have some underlying issues with regards to this topic. Val, same thing with being bitter about having spend an hour a week doing something you didn't like.

    I appreciate all the other responses. I think perhaps many people here are unfamiliar with the Suzuki method and do not understand that parental invovlement is REQUIRED. We (oops, sorry - The boys) have moved away from that as I want the kids to work independently. However, my son is only eight and really doesn't have the organizational skills to practice effectively completely independently. Again, I question the experiences of some of the posters. AN eight year-old playing pretty well is going to have a harder time practicing completely on his own than an eight year old playing Mary Had a Little Lamb. But seeing as this issue is not resolving itself, I will try to keep any involvement to an absolute bare minumum and ill ask his teacher to assign him things to practice with the aim of elimiating my involvement completely. I asked for advice and I am willing to take it!


    La Texican, I do think he may be looking for consistency. He semed almost relieved when I told him he was goign to go first every day. He made a show of acting annoyed for about 30 seconds, but it didn't seem sincere. In very short term I am going to aim for consistency but also try and make it very easy. The two are not at all mutually exclusive.

    Dandy, regarding the breaks - we took a long vacation over Thanksgiving and things were noticably worse after that. I think it;s jsut my kids, not necessarily true in general, but they seem to do better with an every day schedule. I think it's better when they know exactly what to expect. However, with your advice in mind i think if I do let him quit I will present it as a break. I think it will be tough for us to go back ,but I see no downside in sying "OK, you can have a break." As opposed to "OK, you can quit."

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    Originally Posted by Dandy
    If I let my kid choose everything for himself (@ age 8), he'd eat nothing but ice cream, pizza and chocolate, and he'd be wildly successful at video games. And he'd likely never brush his teeth... or bathe.

    Perhaps one difference in my approach is that I don't consider piano to be an extra-curricular activity at all. It is very curricular in my book.

    So... he is required to eat all sorts of vegetables, brush his teeth, limit sweets, bathe regularly, and do his homework... and practice piano.

    Dandy, just saw this after my previous post. This is how I feel as well. But I am willing to re-think it as circumstances change. I am in the process of re-thinking now. As someone else pointed out (I've gotten some very good advice here), he may learn persistance better by doing something where there is a specific goal - like get good grades to get into school. So I'm willing to give up the piano if we need to. But I have no problem forcing my kids to go to school and I think it's reasonable to put piano in the same category.

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    JS, I do remember that at 8, my daughters (both took piano at that age) did require a lot of "mom help" just to make any progress at all in practicing. And I, too, am a single working mom. I know you are reluctant to quit... but I have to say that I was as relieved as they were when the piano lessons and daily practice were gone from our lives. I didn't realize how much stress it was adding for everyone until it was gone. I now really value activities where someone besides me does the coaching and pushing, or that they can pursue with less daily supervision smile It had become a forced march. In pursuit of a worthy goal, but in the end it was not worth it for us.

    Regarding persistence on a goal... I have to say, I don't think transferring pressure to his grades is very realistic at this point (not sure if that is what you are saying, I am just reading your last paragraph above). This is what you care about, not what he cares about. Heck, my 15 year old isn't entirely on board with it all the time, and you will likely just trade one frustrating battle for another. Not saying you shouldn't have some expectations there, but don't expect it to be a lesson in getting something he wants through persistence. It will likely be another exercise in getting what you want. There is a lot to be said for letting HIM pick an activity -- a sport, a musical instrument of his choosing, acting, a science activity, etc. Then you will have better luck with the persistence lesson, I think.

    One other thing to note. The activities that my D loves, is passionate about, and excels at are NOT activities she was doing at 8 years old for the most part. They have so many new opportunities to try out new things in middle school and high school. It is not a crisis for an eight year old to not have a deep passion and skill yet. If he is 15 and not latching on to something, then worry. D's current loves are biology and Quiz Bowl. She does other extracurricular activities (Latin, choir, drawing/painting, fencing, tons of reading). She was doing almost none of these things at 8 (she had started choir then, and always loved to read). But she is now VERY good at the things she is passionate about. So there is plenty of time for an eight year old.

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    I think knowing when a kid hates an activity and knowing when a kid hates the boring part of an activity can be difficult to sort out. I didn't like practicing piano as a kid, but I do think it was useful to study for years and learn to work at something that didn't come easily when so many other things came so easily. DH was allowed to quit piano after a few years and he's always regretted it. There were times when I cried while practicing as a kid but those times were rough patches. I am grateful that I didn't give up the first time I ever had a bad day of practice.

    JaneSmith -- I think you have to figure out whether your son hates piano or he hates practicing so much at 8 or whether he resists all efforts to do an activity with consistency and perseverance or whether he hates your involvement with his practice. If he hates piano, then you may be teaching him to fear trying things, to think of extracurriculars as a power struggle, and to resent your interest in his development. If he just hates practice during a rough patch but loves piano generally, then working through that can provide valuable lessons in learning to persevere through struggle. It may be difficult to sort out once there's an element of power struggle involved.

    My approach to music practice has been that it is required as long as I'm paying for lessons, but I have no other involvement. How effective the time is used, how much is accomplished, or what is done during practice is between the kid and the teacher. We sometimes use some additional requirement -- that practice is done before x activity or before a certain time of day -- but otherwise the kid is in charge of practice. As my kids have developed and had better teachers, the requirements have increased from the teacher which allows me to have no input. The kids don't want to disappoint their teachers and thus work hard.

    My DD9 played two different instruments for a few years. She asked to quit this fall. We talked about it and she'd waffle back and forth from wanting to do it or wanting to quit. We'd encourage her and she'd get interested again. After a few months, she definitely wanted to quit. She came to me, told me that she was learning to work hard and persevere in many other activities and that she wasn't going to develop any love for her instrument. She argued that she had enough to exposure to music to know she didn't want to invest years more doing it. I agreed with her and she quit.

    For me, this is a complicated question. It can be very easy for kids to resent doing anything without the immediate payback of video games and I think part of my job as a parent is to show my kids that sometimes, work takes a long time to pay off. At the same time, forcing a kid to do a hated activity for years seems really silly to me. No matter how much talent a kid has, high levels of achievement require a great deal of work and most kids who detest an activity will never put in that work so there's not much hope for payoff in either achievement or enjoyment.

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    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    However, with your advice in mind i think if I do let him quit I will present it as a break. I think it will be tough for us to go back ,but I see no downside in saying "OK, you can have a break." As opposed to "OK, you can quit."
    His breaks never came about after any particular battle -- or in response to complaints. He'd develop a sharp Pavlovian response if I ever allowed that. Instead, they typically came naturally after a build-up in preparation for a performance, or in conjunction with a school vacation. (Or both, as with our current break.) I always made it a point to tie the break to his hard preparatory work, even when the end-result was not his best possible performance.

    Sorry the break in November didn't yield positive results for you. I'd try another one, though, or reduce frequency & duration of practice.


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    Originally Posted by intparent
    JS, I do remember that at 8, my daughters (both took piano at that age) did require a lot of "mom help" just to make any progress at all in practicing. And I, too, am a single working mom. I know you are reluctant to quit... but I have to say that I was as relieved as they were when the piano lessons and daily practice were gone from our lives. I didn't realize how much stress it was adding for everyone until it was gone. I now really value activities where someone besides me does the coaching and pushing, or that they can pursue with less daily supervision smile It had become a forced march. In pursuit of a worthy goal, but in the end it was not worth it for us.

    This sounds very familiar. I think part of my reluctance to quit is that the activities available to them when they were younger were not challenging enough. But now that they are older, these might make more sense. Its also appealing to think about the time we could spend on special projects. Again, I am not going to rush into any decisions right now, but this is good to hear.

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    Fwiw what I liked about Dandy's scheduled breaks is that they were regularly scheduled. They're not in response to. They can look forward to knowing they're going to get a frequent break. But it's not like the star chart and skittles that they can try to work hard and take a mile. You're trying to carve out a comfortable rut, right. Also fwiw you're not wrong at all to feel hurt by certain posts, but I believe their intention was good and they were just sharing what they discovered work well in their own lives and worked well for their family. I like how you politely said you felt that it was mean spirited. You handled your response quite well. Also Fwiw I applaud your bravery in reaching out for advice and companionship in this vulnerable state.


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    You are right that Suzuki does require parental involvement--which is one of the reasons we avoided it here (ETA: I don't mean that Suzuki is bad, not at all, I just know myself well enough to know that that could have been a problem for me personally). I am a professional musician, and music is important enough to me that I wanted not to be inserted in between my kids and their experience of music. I was really happy that when my lads decided they'd like to have some lessons, they chose instruments (strings, brass) I don't play, and styles (blues, bluegrass, Celtic) far from that which I play, too. That way, what they are doing belongs to them, which I love--and we have fabulous spontaneous jam sessions! I also like that they have good collaborative relationships with other adults, and that I am very much on the sideline with regard to those relationships.

    If your son were interested, could he explore some other styles--maybe jazz, and learn a little about improv?--or early music (he could be the only sackbut or krummhorn player in his whole school!), or some kind of world music (explore the music of a country he finds particularly fascinating?), or fife-and-drum music (and maybe get together with re-enactors)? Are there some teachers around your location who might have expertise in these areas?

    The best thing of all, if he wants to, might be singing--I think part of the problem with practising many other instruments, and certainly piano, is that you are tied to a single physical location, and kids need to move--the voice is our first and best and most portable instrument, and is uniquely our own, in a very personal and wonderful way. Singing is a great way to reconnect with the joy and fun that should be part of all music-making.

    Hope that helps a little--

    peace
    minnie

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    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    Val and passthepotatoes,

    I think your responses are very mean-spirited and can't understand the point of posting them. They are not constructive at all

    My intent was to offer a different perspective with the hopes that you could find solutions that would help end the conflict you are in right now. Take what works for you and leave what doesn't, but when you have such a negative reaction it never hurts to think about where that's coming from.

    Ultimately every family has to decide what their short term and long term goals are for music lessons. The reason we have invested resources into music lessons for our child was: enjoyment of music, opportunity to develop a good relationship with a teacher, the opportunity to develop as a learner as he worked on a passion of his (not one chosen for him).

    I often hear music lessons advocated for gifted kids as a way to learn self discipline or the value of hard work. I think this can be oversold. If the passion is genuine and the teacher and parents are supportive then yes, it can work out that way. But, unfortunately if the kid really lacks the passion or the parents get hyperfocused on results it can backfire and do more harm than good.

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    Passthepotatoes if you took piano for six years and can barely remember anything then maybe you have some underlying issues with regards to this topic.

    I wasn't responsible for my own learning so I didn't retain a lot. That's not too surprising to me. And I know it may be hard to stomach when you are devoting so much time and money to this, but the reality is kids who take through elementary school and quit at middle school age often retain little as an adult. That's the norm, not the exception. I don't think that means it is without value if the kid is enjoying it and growing from the experience. But, I would encourage you to get away from the assumption that you are purchasing your child a lifelong skill. I've gone on to learn to play other instruments more competently, but that was because I had a passion for it and I took the initiative.

    Originally Posted by JaneSmith
    However, my son is only eight and really doesn't have the organizational skills to practice effectively completely independently. Again, I question the experiences of some of the posters. AN eight year-old playing pretty well is going to have a harder time practicing completely on his own than an eight year old playing Mary Had a Little Lamb.

    Sorry, I know several kids that age who were practicing very competently while working at the level of Suzuki book three or four so that's beyond Mary Had a Little Lamb. Eight year olds aren't all the same of course and that's not to say your child has the capability to do that right now. I didn't hear anyone in the thread suggesting you refuse to provide support that he asks for rather that locking horns over how he practices doesn't seem to be working very well.

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    I have a son that started Suzuki piano at age 5. He just turned 10 and has been taking 4 1/2 years. Music at the moment is mandatory and considered curriculum for my kids (we homeschool). My 6 year old daughter started Suzuki violin at 4.

    For both of them, we find a piece of it they love. My son loves "showing off". He likes performing or preparing for events, so the more his teacher can do this, the better. He also love playing FAST. He's working through a bunch of more modern music right now.

    On the sight reading piece, we are still with a Suzuki teacher. But at my son's age and level, he could easily move to a traditional teacher now. He reads all his Suzuki music to learn it. We started by just doing a couple minutes of sight reading a day, and worked up from there until he got to the point where he needs the music. My kids probably works 2/3rds the time outside Suzuki repertoire at this point. Maybe you could ease into the sight reading instead of an all or nothing approach if he does enjoy playing by ear more.

    Our practice time is "play" time. We joke and fool around and when we're out of time, we're done. Even though my son is excellent and competitive (someone called him a prodigy to his face last week! crazy definitely NOT true), we don't get too intense about it at home. Most of the kids he plays with are so much more serious and competitive than he is. But his teacher works well with his personality. We've had 3 different piano teachers and I think personality fit is huge! If the teacher is throwing too much at your child, I'd definitely talk to the teacher about backing WAY down and going back to just making it fun. How about different styles, improv, composition, theory?

    Anyway - good luck with your decisions! Don't be afraid to take a break and switch it up if it isn't working for you right now. My kid does not like to practice every day, but has never actually asked to quit. You know your child best - does he hate every piece of piano, or is just getting to the piano daily the hard part? Having a regular practice time is huge at this house.

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    Hi,

    First of all however many minutes a day your child should practice something is a pretty personal decision. What is or isn't commonly required of children to learn to do at age 8 is just culturally determined and it changes over time. There are an awful lot of parents out there dragging their reluctant kids to soccer, to Kumon, or to religious study, all in the name of child betterment. It's just in the eye of the beholder which activities have merit and how many minutes or hours per day children should engage in them. If you have a deep personal commitment to your child playing the piano well or for a certain amount of time then that's just how it is and the question is how to make that the least emotionally painful for the child.

    I thought I would add my personal piano experience from age 8: My mother had a few years of piano as a child but gave it up and later regretted it. She loves to play, she took up piano again as an adult but to her dismay simply was not able to proceed at the same pace. She was determined I would not make the "mistake" of quitting. I showed promise. She required I take lessons as a child. She told me over and over I would regret it as an adult if I stopped. She tried to get me to practice with decreasing success as I liked it less and less. I progressed (probably not very fast but not slow) on only a few minutes of practicing a day. At the age of 8 I made a stand that I hated it.

    She wanted me to continue so much that she agreed to trade lessons in anything I wanted: if I would continue piano for one further year then if I still wanted to I could quit, but either way I would then get to take the type of lessons I wanted for one year. At least that is how I remember the arrangement. She regarded the lessons I wanted as frivolous so wasn't about to offer them otherwise. I think she felt that if I could just gain a little more maturity I would see the value in it, felt that in a year I'd naturally just want to continue.

    The end result: I continued for another year, practicing an average of about 10 minutes daily (I had to practice 5 and I'd practice 40 occasional days when doing fun things) and making enough progress to keep my teacher happy. The practice did not come without my mom nagging. I quit the day the year ended (much to my mom's surprise as I hadn't mentioned it for the year and she had forgotten when it would be up). And then I got the joy of being rewarded for something I had really earned. Not without some problems as it turned out to be a little more expensive than piano and my parents couldn't afford a year of it initially (at least they said that) -- I got around 8 weeks of lessons paid for by them initially then a couple years later when they could better afford it I got an additional whole year. In later years I got a part time job to pay for it.

    I'm so glad she let me quit piano at the end of that year. It was a constant source of unhappiness between the two of us.

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    My DD took Piano for 3 years, starting when she was in Kindergarten. She was very good (though admittedly, she would have been incredible had she actually PRACTICED!) Practicing was a battle! Finally, after 3 years, I decided to let her stop. I didn't want her to get to a point of HATING the piano and hoped that one day, she would pick it back up again and enjoy it. 6 months went by before she touched the piano. Now, she sits down quite often and plays for the enjoyment of playing. Someday, I am sure, she'll come back to it, but I want her to decide when, so that she won't despise it and never come back to it.


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    I could go either way on this depending on how you look at our situation and decisions.

    I make my DS7 take gymnastics. It is the only thing that is a struggle for him, the only thing in his life he has to actually work for and the only thing that he can't just watch once and figure out. I know you all know this isn't a brag, but something that often happens with our kids.

    He complains heavily after each class about how hard it is. He sometimes cries in class and his coach totally ignores him, giving his whining no attention (at my direction). All the other moms look at me like I am the meanest, pushiest parent. I have told him that if he can go to class for a whole month without saying "I can't do it, it's too hard" then he can stop. It's been 7 months. He just tested out of his first level last week and is moving on to a new class.

    I think the difference may be that I am not in any way personally vested in his gymnastics. I would trade it out for something equally as challenging that caused him to reach that point of "I can't" and then persevere. We just happened to stumble upon this one thing.

    I have let him quit plenty of other things but forced him to finish the class, season or whatever other "chunk" of time it was divided into.

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    Originally Posted by CAMom
    I think the difference may be that I am not in any way personally vested in his gymnastics. I would trade it out for something equally as challenging that caused him to reach that point of "I can't" and then persevere. We just happened to stumble upon this one thing.

    Common ground here - I'm sure we all see risks to everything coming easily to kids. And, we all see the importance for life in developing persistence and a work ethic.

    I'm wondering though if there is any evidence this can be imposed on a kid from the outside. I have seen how a child can be motivated by a true passion to push themselves out of their comfort zone and to work through frustrations. This experience can help a child grow and over the long term contribute to their success. My question: Does it work to force this experience on a child? Is forced hard work at something the child hates a substitute for chosen hard work at a task a child loves? Does being forced to do something you hate only make hard work seem all the more loathsome?


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    I am blown away by reading some of the posts on this thread. As the parent of two successful kids (d20 and d15), I can't fathom making a kid continue something they hate just to teach them perseverence. I understand making them continue for a period of time because you made an investment of some kind in equipment, and making sure they understand up front about that. I understand making them finish out a season because the lessons are paid for or it lets their team down if they don't. But I just cannot understand forcing a kid to do something they clearly hate (and that makes them cry) for year after year.

    As far as I can tell (as a successful adult), there will be plenty of opportunities in life for our kids to have to suffer through things they would rather not do and find very difficult(my college finance class comes to mind!). I really don't believe that forcing kids to continue activities like music lessons or sports that they hate beyond a given season gives them a leg up on this as adults at all. I think it just erodes any trust your kids have in you as a reasonable, caring person in their lives.

    Agreed, by the way, on the swimming lessons. Driving is the other required item at our house (another life skill).

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    I'm wondering though if there is any evidence this can be imposed on a kid from the outside. I have seen how a child can be motivated by a true passion to push themselves out of their comfort zone and to work through frustrations. This experience can help a child grow and over the long term contribute to their success. My question: Does it work to force this experience on a child? Is forced hard work at something the child hates a substitute for chosen hard work at a task a child loves? Does being forced to do something you hate only make hard work seem all the more loathsome?


    My DS has no passion, no task he loves and nothing he will truly work for. Yes, he's only 7. But he will give up on anything if it poses the slightest challenge so how do you know you love it? He just recently learned to button his pants because it required him to actually try for more than 30 seconds and not quit. He wasn't worried about asking friends to do it for him but it was beginning to draw attention from teachers, as he is grade skipped and they thought it was weird. I "forced" him to learn to do it by taking away TV and books until he spent 20 min practicing with me. He learned how, once he stopped freaking out.

    Yet when forced to do something, he has an immense sense of pride! He was beaming with joy when he got his next color up wristband in gymnastics. He told everyone we know that he stuck it out and got his next wristband and how happy he was.

    Has that changed his attitude in class? Nope. He does the easy stuff happily. When it comes time to learn a new skill he fusses, whimpers, complains that it's too hard and his coach is mean. Tries it, doesn't succeed, tries again and gets a little better. Completes skill with some success and is joyous! Next skill comes up and he's certain he can't do it, pattern begins again.

    I truly believe this is a bit of perfectionism in him where he's certain he can't do it and is a gigantic failure because of it.

    Swimming lessons were the same way. I hope to have worked this out of him by the time we get to driving lessons.


    Last edited by CAMom; 12/28/10 09:59 AM.
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    I have a question about extracurricular... dandy commented that piano lessons are not outside the curriculum, which was my first question. Is piano required or optional?

    The second question has to do with the arts in general. What is the goal of having the arts part of the curriculum? Is it a certain level of achievent, e.g. Suzuki Book 3?

    My personal viewpoint is that the arts - all of the arts - are for all humanity. Singing is not just for people with nice voices, dancing is not just for people with rhythm, and painting is not just for people who have the hand skills to pull of realism.

    If playing piano is part of the curriculum, is the goal to simply stick with it? Or is achievement part of the expectation? Are the goals discussed, with rewards also discussed? Work always comes with rewards.

    To the OP, I just also wanted to add that, if you ever find yourself thinking, during practices with your DS, "You are just like your father," with a great deal of tenseness, to consider that a giant red flag to back off and cool off. Maybe that's not at all an issue - I hope not - but I thought I'd mention it.

    All the best to you ~

    (We just signed DD up for combined piano, drums and voice lessons this week for her 4th birthday. I went in seeking Suzuki violin lessons, but was steered this way instead. I am relieved and DD is very excited.)

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    [/quote]

    I'm wondering though if there is any evidence this can be imposed on a kid from the outside. I have seen how a child can be motivated by a true passion to push themselves out of their comfort zone and to work through frustrations. This experience can help a child grow and over the long term contribute to their success. My question: Does it work to force this experience on a child? Is forced hard work at something the child hates a substitute for chosen hard work at a task a child loves? Does being forced to do something you hate only make hard work seem all the more loathsome?

    [/quote]

    I think this is a false dichotomy: either the kid is totally motivated or the kid is pushed to do something he/she hates. There are many nuances in between. As CAMom and others have said, there are kids who would only eat M&Ms and never brush their teeth if not "pushed," or those who need that little nudge, with encouragement and support, to get over a hump doing something they actually love, not hate. It's hard to understand until you had one of these. And it's even harder when you are self-motivated and cannot relate to the many non-achieving but very gifted kids/adults out there. I finished my PhD in 2 years after the dean told me that the fastest student to finish was a guy who was done in 2.5 years, but I could certainly not do it as a woman. And I said "Hm, just watch me!" and that was it. So I understand internal motivation and I do wish my child was like that, it would make life so much easier. My dd, however, has a hard time doing things she knows she is not going to be perfect at. Fortunately, this rarely happens with academics, but we have dropped classes at many gyms, swimming, piano, drums, ballet, art, etc, way before the class time ran out, and wasted many hundreds of dollars because she wanted to take the class, then something would be "too hard" and the coach/teacher would not "push" but at the same time complain that she is not doing the stuff, practicing, whatever. So when I took over some of these things she did great, and yes, I "pushed" by saying come on, one more time, try it again, blah, blah, show you believe in yourself, etc, we'll play water tag after, etc. And yes, I had other parents looking at me weird in the pool and the gym. But dd loved to succeed, and like CAMom's son has been very proud of whatever she achieved. She was invited to join gymnastics and swim teams several times but I said no because frankly, that would have meant more work for me. She wanted to do both and loves sports and is very athletic and talented. Believe me, if I could have gotten away without the "pushing" I would have, it's so much easier to sit on the side and relax while the coach or the teacher does his/her job.
    My 2 cents.


    Last edited by funnydogsmom; 12/28/10 11:07 AM.
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    I think sometimes we get so caught up in analysing the situation, we miss the point. If the child is so unhappy, why continue? It seems like he has learned the basics and perhaps without the structure of lessons, he will find the freedom to explore the piano on his own? Perhaps there is another instrument or skill he wants to pursue?

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    Originally Posted by intparent
    I am blown away by reading some of the posts on this thread. As the parent of two successful kids (d20 and d15), I can't fathom making a kid continue something they hate just to teach them perseverence.


    I agree. I can sort-of see a couple of the arguments used here (e.g. "We see piano as a curricular activity"), but I also know that forcing kids to do extracurriculars that they don't like makes them resentful, and more likely to avoid the activity. People could make a counter-point that that if they let their kids pick everything, they'd eat popcorn for dinner, but in this situation, this argument seems to be a bit of a straw man to me.

    Is the piano an extra subject on top of a full school day or is it incorporated into it? If the lessons are just part of a school day, then they're obviously curricular. Either way, I can see that parents can see lessons as important and enriching. But when the child consistently complains about hating the lessons and/or cries often, I begin to wonder about the point of continuing.

    (Using "he" as a universal pronoun below)

    I'm not sure that the benefits of perseverence can become apparent when a child is learning something extracurricular because his parents are making him learn. In this case, what's the goal? To be exposed to music? To become more cultured? To gain fine motor skills? To become a competent piano player (how do you define competent?)? How do you measure these things? Plus, most importantly, who sets the goal?

    If the child wasn't interested in the goal to begin with, how (or why) would he see himself as persevering to get it? Why would anyone persevere to get something that has no meaning to them in any form, and gives no apparent benefit (such as a grade or paycheck)? Besides, perseverence is internal: people persevere because they want something. When mom and dad are making the child play the piano, the child isn't persevering --- the parents are. Being forced is NOT persevering.

    If the goal is to enrich the child, there must be a way to find something that both the parents and the child find acceptable.

    Okay, just my two cents. I am not trying to attack anyone here or be mean. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective.

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    I will offer my experience and not my advice.

    My DD6 (almost 7) takes piano lessons, and she has since she was 5. DS3 will take piano lessons, maybe starting next year. Piano lessons are not optional in our house. We consider it a part of a well-rounded education. If the kids want to switch to another instrument (or voice)in middle school, when school lessons are offered, then they may. DH and I also take piano lessons, BTW.

    DH grew up in a musical family and took piano for just a couple of years and then switched to trumpet and baritone horn. He was/is a gifted musician, but his career is not in music. I took piano for a few years, but did not mesh well with my teacher and quit. I moved on to voice lessons in MS and HS. Music is not my talent, but I enjoy it and value the experience. I also love the piano and enjoy taking lessons as an adult, even if I suck at it.

    DD clearly has DHs talent. She goes through spurts of liking to practice and spurts of complaining. But she does LOVE to perform. Oh, does that ever motivate her! The periods in between recitals and competition she will express not wanting to practice or go to lessons. She knows it isn't an option- it is like school. You just do it because it is important to learn.

    We feel like she can make the choice as she approaches middle school age. Until then, we make the choice for her. Her other after-school activities are HER choice. But not piano. That's what works for our family. I do think it helps that we all practice and play- hearing mommy make mistakes and curse her fingers and try again is always reassuring;-)

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    Originally Posted by intparent
    I am blown away by reading some of the posts on this thread. As the parent of two successful kids (d20 and d15), I can't fathom making a kid continue something they hate just to teach them perseverence. I understand making them continue for a period of time because you made an investment of some kind in equipment, and making sure they understand up front about that. I understand making them finish out a season because the lessons are paid for or it lets their team down if they don't. But I just cannot understand forcing a kid to do something they clearly hate (and that makes them cry) for year after year.

    I think one reason for this disagreement comes from thinking that kids complaining about a piano practice are necessarily doing something they hate. My kids do lots of things that made them cry at least once including swimming, music, sports, math, and school. I'm certainly not going to let them quit everything that ever made them cry. Most recently, I had kids sobbing in frustration about not being able to ski perfectly during morning ski school and laughing giddily while flying down the mountain by the early afternoon. Should I have let them quit when they were crying in the morning? It is pretty natural for a kid to resist discipline and structure and it doesn't mean the kid hates the activity. It seems pretty normal to me to be frustrated by things that take a great deal of effort before there is much payoff.

    As I mentioned, my DD just quit piano because I don't think she loved the activity. But I have a son who sometimes doesn't want to practice and I would be very reluctant to let him quit because I believe he demonstrates an overall love of music. He composed all summer in his free time. He enters competitions with performance and composition. He requested a music theory tutor. He reads music history and theory for fun. He performs. He seeks better instruction despite longer lessons and needing more practice. He's chosen multiple instruments which requires more practice. Does he love practice every single day? No. Has he ever cried while practicing? Yes. There are days he'd rather play video games all day without needing to do math, practice, or take out the garbage, but that doesn't mean he hates music or his instruments or that he's being tortured by being asked to keep up with the commitments he's made.

    I actually discussed this thread with him. He believes that music has little payoff in the beginning and much greater rewards later, so he thought there needed to be a nudge towards working early on before the kid can see the benefits. There's nothing very pleasant about playing or listening to Mississippi Hotdog! Once a kid can join an orchestra, compose and perform his own stuff, play any popular song he likes, please himself with the sound he makes and the technical ability he's developing, the rewards seems pretty obvious to me. Is it worth forcing a kid who hates it to do it for years? I don't think so -- but it's worth it for us to provide some structure to practice and encouragement that means allowing a kid to cry occasionally while getting to the level the kid can appreciate.

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    Someone asked "why the arts, why music?" - here's my answer: I've long seen it as my duty to provide a variety of experiences to my children in order to send well rounded adults out into the world. Music, art, athletics, hobbies, community service - all come into play alongside academics. Thus our family rule has been one sport, one musical instrument and one class of some form of art as one of the high school electives. What a child chose was up to them, but once they committed to something they had to finish it before quitting and moving on to something else.

    This is a compilation of studies that might interest you: (http://www.ericdigests.org/2004-3/cognitive.html) Studies have shown that music enhances cognitive abilities, and beyond the benefits in the "academic" realm, the ability to create music is a good emotional and artistic outlet.

    And as parents of gifted kids, I do think it's important to differentiate between the whining and complaining that comes with kids for whom almost everything ordinary comes far too easy and in persisting in pushing a child to continue something that has become a major conflict for little valuable outcome.

    I really admire the OP for having the courage to not only recognize in herself that this issue was something that she needed to explore but for reaching out to others for input in making her decision about how to move forward. We can't always reach out to our friends because we seem like a real diva of a parent when we talk about why we want to push our kids in ways that a parent of a kid with an average IQ would not consider. It's a tough call - every time we face this delimma with our kids as they mature and try new experience - and it comes with no easy answers.

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    Originally Posted by kaibab
    I think one reason for this disagreement comes from thinking that kids complaining about a piano practice are necessarily doing something they hate.
    Quite. It sounds as though the OP's child would actually prefer to give up and that makes it to me an extreme case where I wouldn't want to go. But my DS7 sometimes cries over his piano practice and I sit there and make him do it. If I ask him whether he'd rather give up piano, his answer is always an emphatic No. He understands that a condition of continuing to have lessons is that he practise daily and properly. If he complained daily, I'd probably take the choice out of his hands and stop arranging lessons for him. But as long as he consistently says he wants to continue, and only sometimes complains about practice, I see helping him through that intermittent reluctance as just part of parenting, and something that's useful when I need something to remind him that hard work isn't always fun but does pay off.


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    Originally Posted by CAMom
    My DS has no passion, no task he loves and nothing he will truly work for


    Is there really nothing he enjoys at all? What does he do when his time is his own? From my perspective if a kid genuinely doesn't enjoy anything the best way to deal with that is not forcing them to do an activity while they cry and telling them the only way they are allowed to quit is if for an entire month they stop being honest about the fact that they hate it. It seems that could actually have a chilling effect making a child nervous to try new things knowing their cries won' t be listened to and the only escape is to be dishonest about how they feel.

    While certainly in adult life we all face stuff we don't enjoy and we find a way to work through it, I don't think we have to wait for adult life for that to happen. Even for the most gifted of kids ANY activity they sent their mind to is going to involve some need to work and find ways to persist through challenges. It isn't just learning the violin. Ordinary childhood play offers plenty of opportunities. I'm talking about stuff like: learning to knit, skateboard jumps, building the biggest lego tower you can, jumprope, building a fort, trying to dam a creek, baking, putting on a play with your friends, finding new ways to torture your sister. Other than electronics what are the childhood activities that involve no opportunities to learn and grow?

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    Has that changed his attitude in class? Nope. He does the easy stuff happily. When it comes time to learn a new skill he fusses, whimpers, complains that it's too hard and his coach is mean. Tries it, doesn't succeed, tries again and gets a little better. Completes skill with some success and is joyous! Next skill comes up and he's certain he can't do it, pattern begins again.

    So, in other words learning more gymnastics skills isn't improving his attitude or his willingness to persist. Just like when he began the class he conceives of himself as a person who can't do things unless forced. He still sees people who teach him as mean (and really not surprising - if somebody ignored me when I was crying I wouldn't trust them or think they were kind either!) So, what exactly is being accomplished? Is the plan forever to force him to do one thing after another until what?

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    I truly believe this is a bit of perfectionism in him where he's certain he can't do it and is a gigantic failure because of it.

    From my perspective force and raising the stakes only make perfectionism worse. Gentle support, promoting accurate self understanding, etc. all work better.


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    One thing I've always wondered about... Why music rather than art? Many people see it as a standard necessity that kids learn an instrument but very few people mandate drawing or dance lessons. Why is that?

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    Originally Posted by ColinsMum
    I see helping him through that intermittent reluctance as just part of parenting, and something that's useful when I need something to remind him that hard work isn't always fun but does pay off.

    I see a big difference between force and supporting a child to achieve her goals. Force is: you can't quit, you will be lazy if you don't work harder on this, until you stop saying it is hard you aren't allowed to quit, etc.

    Supporting can come in other forms such as: encouraging the student to talk to the teacher about what is frustrating them, providing a home environment that supports practice - time in the daily schedule and a quiet place to practice, offering to be an audience or cheerleader, offering encouraging words, reminding the student of their goals. Most of all I would encourage parents to talk with the student's teachers when something isn't working and let the teacher problem solve with the student. Some teachers are better than others at teaching effective practice skills. It isn't just time on task but knowing how to keep engaged with really listening to yourself and knowing how to improve.

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    One thing I've always wondered about... Why music rather than art? Many people see it as a standard necessity that kids learn an instrument but very few people mandate drawing or dance lessons. Why is that?

    Why the assumption that it is either or? Though my DD is only 4 she has a love for dance, drawing/art of many types, and the piano. I think it is important to provide opportunities for her to explore. Her Christmas was full of many art supplies and she was thrilled to get them.

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    Quote
    Someone asked "why the arts, why music?"


    I asked that, rhetorically.

    Music, fine art, team* sports, and foreign language are required subjects in our house. smile

    (* What children learn on a team is different than what they can learn doing a sport independently.)

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    PTP, that's a very nice list of suggestions. I'm copying them to my notebook for future reference.


    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar
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    Speaking of dance, we just went to a cousin's wedding and everybody there was complementing that my son was on the dance floor, dancing with the girls when appropriate, just dancing, everything. My heart bursts. It's so full.


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    Somebody commented that some parents drag their kids to soccor practice, some drag them to church, some give them piano lessons. I have to agree with this supportive sentiment. I say it all the time about my kids (mostly to family members). The hubby agrees and says it too. "you raised your kids your way. Now it's my turn, and I'm going to raise my kid's the way I want."

    This is probably one of the few forums that's not tied to just one ideology or way of doing things. Everywhere they may have diversity, but this one has a great diversity of ideas by nature. Cheers.

    I love that someone could ask for advice or ask to discuss a Dilema and that people can have the insight to help the find the answer they are looking for and not just the obvious answer that works for everyone else. KWIM? Or did I just drink too much coffee again and I'm talking nonsense?


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    I don't see that the people suggesting that forcing a child to play an instrument they don't enjoy are saying that a child should be allow to give up anything that has made them cry once in a while (though they're welcome to correct me if I am wrong). Goodness knows my daughter would never do anything new if that was the case.

    What I see them saying is that if it is causing unhappiness then there is a question about whether or not it is worth doing. My daughter is only very young, just 5. She will drop an activity as soon as it's a challenge and fall in a heap on the floor. I'll explain to her why it's a challenge for her, why she shouldn't expect to be able to do it easily and what is likely to enable her to do it better down the track. I let her know she's welcome to ask for help. Often she doesn't. She likes to practice and perfect things on her own. Once she is calm she will go back to the activity without fail. If I think there is some piece of advice that will help her (like doing something slowly), I explain why it is important to start slowly (training your brain and muscles to do it the right way etc) and how it can end up being quicker to start slowly in the long run. When I have insisted she continue a task or that she do it my way, dd has simply never been interest in whatever activity I was insistent about again.

    Is it time consuming? Absolutely - but more so than dealing with consequence we see when she has been forced to do an activity. Do I sometimes think 'why wont you just get on with it???' Often. And frankly there are times when i don't have the patience for it and I don't deal with it as constructively as I might like to.

    I also think that insisting kids eat healthy food etc is in no way related to this. There are some things that are essential to a good life. Being healthy is a big part of that. I would argue that having access to and participating in music is too. However, insisting that that must be achieved through a particular instrument and/style makes no sense to me (why are people so insistent about piano? Sure it's versatile and a great basis from which to read music and play any instrument. But If you're not trying to set your kid up as a professional musician - surely their choice anyway - why not let them pick something different? You rarely see someone complaining about being forced to play the saxophone or drums or guitar. The great thing about music is that it can present a challenge regardless of the instrument).

    If it is persistence and resilience you're after there is a great book call the Optimistic Child by Martin Seligman (former president of the American Psychological Association). It has some great advice on encouraging and motivating kids. My own feeling is that developing persistence is something that we do in a whole host of ways. Insisting on playing the piano might be one way, but it seems to me to be a pretty negative way and I guess I feel there are likely to be healthier and more meaningful ways to do it.


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    Jane,

    I understand your desire to have your child do something challenging. Piano is the only challenge my son ever gets. School is ridiculously!! easy for him, he has 3-5 minutes of homework 4 days a week, is the "star" of his soccer team, can accurately throw a spiral about 20-25 yards, and is friendly and sociable (even though not necessarily "popular"). Life is great for him, and he is kind, sweet and funny- everything a parent could hope for.

    But what happens to him the day he hits the wall and finds that not all math is intuitive and he just might have to spend more than 2 seconds on a problem? What happens when he gets passed over as the starter on his soccer or baseball teams? How is my son ever going to learn to deal with challenge and failure if he never gets a chance to experience those emotions in a safe environment?

    I could be wrong since I haven't read this entire thread yet, but in reading your early posts you seem to have the same fears for your son. I think you're approaching this problem from a good place, but you may be too close to it to see a solution.

    My son also likes to play the piano but hates to practice. I don't force him. He knows what his teacher expects and it is his responsibility (even at age 6) to see that he practices enough. We have had a talk in which my husband and I explained to him that he does not need to waste either his or his teacher's time or disrespect her, which is what a lesson is for a week in which he hasn't practiced enough. He doesn�t always practice the required time, but that�s his problem, not ours. He is the one who has to face his teacher�s disapproval and/or disappointment. He is the one who knows that he could have done better if he�d practiced. He owns that, not us. Other than paying for them and oohing and ahhing over his playing, my husband and I have nothing to do with his lessons.

    He practices in strange ways, just like your son. Sometimes he practices what�s been assigned, slower or faster than the proper tempo, sometimes he jumps ahead to different songs he likes better, and sometimes he makes up his own. His teacher is fairly laid back and allows him these freedoms. She assigns 2 songs for the end of year recital that he must play/practice, but other than that she allows him a good deal of leeway. For her, it�s really about him learning to read music and fingering.


    I say all that to get to this- you might need to just remove yourself from the situation and let your son succeed or fail on his own. It sounds as though he enjoys music, but he might resent your (real or perceived) intrusions into his lessons and playing. Your son might have his own ideas about how a piece should be played or interpreted, so let him do it his way- not what is considered the �right� way. After all, Picasso didn�t exactly paint the �right� way, either. smile It sounds too much like your situation is becoming a battle of wills that your son wants to win. If you step back and out, the battle is over without any serious bloodletting!

    I would also talk to him to see if there is an issue with his teacher. She might be a wonderful teacher, but perhaps they just don�t click. It might be as simple as that, you never know.

    Also, we�ve told our son that he can switch to another instrument in a few years. He really wants to play the guitar or trumpet, and we�ve told him he can do that when he�s a little older. We explained (and he understood) how the piano is considered the foundation instrument, and that even the things he is learning now will/should make it that much easier for him to play the guitar, trumpet, violin or any other instrument he desires. Perhaps if your son knows that you are willing to permit him to switch once he gets the basics down on the piano, he will work that much harder to �master� this instrument in order to move on to the one he really desires.

    I also think I understand what you mean by serious extracurriculars. If my son had his way, he would do nothing but play ball and computer games. For a child who used to feed on workbooks and books, it�s a definite 180. He now doesn�t want to do workbooks because he doesn�t want to get even further ahead in school, but he still doesn�t have to put any effort into school either. Piano has been a wonderful way for him to have to actually work at something in order to be very good at it. Without piano or some other musical instrument, my child would be sailing through life with absolutely no effort. I know, I know- he�s only 6. But I�d still rather him learn now that effort is required in life rather than when he�s failing something for the first time at age 20.

    I�ve already written enough, but I just wanted to say this as well. If you try all these things suggested here and nothing gets better, then perhaps it is time to take a break from the piano for a while. He�s only 8, and there are other activities where he can hopefully get the self discipline you seem to be searching for. I know most people don�t think of dance for boys, but it also involves music and teaches incredible self discipline. Just a thought. smile

    Sorry this is so long!

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    Originally Posted by Giftodd
    I don't see that the people suggesting that forcing a child to play an instrument they don't enjoy are saying that a child should be allow to give up anything that has made them cry once in a while (though they're welcome to correct me if I am wrong).

    What I see them saying is that if it is causing unhappiness then there is a question about whether or not it is worth doing. If it is persistence and resilience you're after there is a great book call the Optimistic Child by Martin Seligman (former president of the American Psychological Association).

    This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks.

    I'll definitely check out the book.

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    Is there really nothing he enjoys at all? What does he do when his time is his own? From my perspective if a kid genuinely doesn't enjoy anything the best way to deal with that is not forcing them to do an activity while they cry and telling them the only way they are allowed to quit is if for an entire month they stop being honest about the fact that they hate it. It seems that could actually have a chilling effect making a child nervous to try new things knowing their cries won' t be listened to and the only escape is to be dishonest about how they feel.

    *snip* Even for the most gifted of kids ANY activity they sent their mind to is going to involve some need to work and find ways to persist through challenges. It isn't just learning the violin. Ordinary childhood play offers plenty of opportunities. I'm talking about stuff like: learning to knit, skateboard jumps, building the biggest lego tower you can, jumprope, building a fort, trying to dam a creek, baking, putting on a play with your friends,...

    *snip*
    So, in other words learning more gymnastics skills isn't improving his attitude or his willingness to persist. Just like when he began the class he conceives of himself as a person who can't do things unless forced. He still sees people who teach him as mean (and really not surprising - if somebody ignored me when I was crying I wouldn't trust them or think they were kind either!) So, what exactly is being accomplished? Is the plan forever to force him to do one thing after another until what?

    From my perspective force and raising the stakes only make perfectionism worse. Gentle support, promoting accurate self understanding, etc. all work better.
    If left entirely to his own devices, he will watch TV all day long or play computer games. He has a million legos, tons of books, a bike, a puppy and the opportunity to do any extracurricular activity he wants. But he doesn't want... Last summer he had 5 weeks to just mess around, no structure, no plans nothing. All he wanted to do was watch TV and play on the computer. Okay by me, but not for all the time, all the days.

    His classroom teacher never makes him finish an assignment. If it's "hard" she says he can do half, or do what he wants or whatever. He reads two to three books a week at school because the other work is "hard". Charm and sad eyes shouldn't get you out of work but his teacher feels sorry for him. He snickers and goes back to reading. We're working hard to get him accomodated at school but the lessons he's learning there are not productive.

    You asked "So, what exactly is being accomplished? Is the plan forever to force him to do one thing after another until what?"

    The plan is that sometimes, you have to learn to do something that isn't easy. I couldn't care less if he's a gymnast- it was his request. But I do care that when you try something new, you actually commit to TRY it. The very moment you do one cartwheel and it doesn't work out, you can't quit.

    If my DS genuinely said "Mom, I do not want to do gymnastics anymore. I would like to try ___ instead" I would stop instantly. What I won't entertain is "I'm no good, it's too hard, I want to quit, you're mean." And really, can I force him to perform? Nope. I just drive him there and come back an hour later... once a week. He loves his coach and made him a Christmas present, thanks him every time he teaches him something new and is happy when it's done.

    Frankly, as a middle school administrator, I see WAY too many kids who have never ever been asked to work through something, try something hard or work it out with a friend. Their parents rescue them constantly from any sort of trouble whether it's academic or social. If they get a bad grade, it's the test or the teacher. If a friend is mean and they argue, she's a bully and the school should provide discipline.

    Everything I've read, and it's a lot, on perfectionism says that the goal is to get a realistic self-image. I'm working hard to get him to understand that a realistic self-image includes that everyone is not good at everything, but you can find joy in the struggle and learning something new. Not being good at something the first time doesn't make you stupid, an idiot, or any of the other hateful words he often spews at himself when he fails the first time.

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    That optimistic child book is related to modern Positive Psychology, according to amazon. That new member has a link to their blog I been reading for a couple of days And the link on this page of the blog:
    http://giftedforlife.com/1389/how-well-do-you-know-your-signature-strengths/
    Takes you to some kind of Positive Psychology page. They said it's the next step for this generation. Clinical psychology made it possible for there to be less unhappiness in the world. Modern Positive Psychology is going to make it possible by the same measure for there to be more happiness in the world. There's a forum registration on that page, but I haven't got that far yet. I'm slow. But, hoo-ray! That's closer to the star trek the next generation fantasy world I wish for in my lifetime.

    ETA: tried to get on that genuine happiness Positive Psychology forum and I ran into a dead end.

    Last edited by La Texican; 12/29/10 05:11 PM. Reason: Added update.

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    I really mean no offense when I write this, but here goes anyway. As an employer, I must say that I�ve apparently run into a number of posters� children as employees. I have far too often seen young people who do not feel they have to put forth effort when facing a challenging task, that someone else will finish Project A while they move on to Project G. Life is supposed to be fun and easy, just like it was when they were children. Yeah, ok.

    Allowing a child to replace a lesson with another type of activity/lesson because, even after some time working on it, he hates it so much that it makes him resent his parent/teacher is one thing. Allowing that child to quit an activity because it�s no longer fun is a recipe for disaster in adulthood.

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    Montefan, I think you are making a sweeping generalization that parents who do not force their kids to continue an activity for years that they really dislike also do not expect their children to ever step up to a challenge. That certainly has not been true in our family. My kids get no quarter on academic challenges, for example (even the gifted one has a very hard time with foreign language, for example, and there is no discussion of her dropping out or dropping back -- just working harder). And as I stated in previous posts, my kids are turning out very well (the NON-gifted one is on track to graduate from college Phi Beta Kappa, for example). You don't have to be mean to your kids to get good results and responsible adults.

    By the way, I have been a manager and business owner as well. And I do not see an association between forcing 7/8 year olds to ocntinue with activities that they have given a few years to and clearly do not want to continue with, and with being a good eomployee. That is just a really big stretch.

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    I thought maybe I read the first post wrong, so I re-read it and I still interpret it as reading that he's taken the lessons for years. (including several trips to piano camp). And that the change in attitude over lessons co-incised with a change in the parents marital status. I hate to say that. I feel so terrible every time I say it. In which case it's not the usual arguement, which everybody wants to keep referring to, of charachter building and perseverance. It's a quiestion of continuity. Of, when my cousin recently divorced I overheard conversations about kids need comforting. Weither or not they know it they are in a stage of grieving a loss. But at the same time kids. (I wish I could think of a better way to word this so my poor choice of words isn't a straw man concealing the intended meaning). Kids can't be allowed to use this circumstance as an excuse. In this case he has been taking piano, why should that change now just because the dad is gone? That the mother taking the lead in this case despite the kid's protests could be comforting, in theory. Of course, there's something to be said for a fresh start and a new plan, too. There's many angle's to the dangle.


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    Originally Posted by MonetFan
    I have far too often seen young people who do not feel they have to put forth effort when facing a challenging task, that someone else will finish Project A while they move on to Project G. Life is supposed to be fun and easy, just like it was when they were children. Yeah, ok.

    And, you trace this back to quitting piano lessons?

    It seems really unfair to all involved (kid, piano teacher, parents) to suggest that any lesson can overcome the problems of a child being in an educational environment where they are learning nothing.

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    Originally Posted by Katelyn'sM om
    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    One thing I've always wondered about... Why music rather than art? Many people see it as a standard necessity that kids learn an instrument but very few people mandate drawing or dance lessons. Why is that?

    Why the assumption that it is either or? Though my DD is only 4 she has a love for dance, drawing/art of many types, and the piano.

    Of course kids can do both and many do. My question is why do we so often hear the suggestion of music lessons as a way to teach gifted kids discipline but we rarely hear drawing lessons advocated in the same way? Is it just because there is a better infrastructure for music lessons or is there something else that motivates this?

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    Originally Posted by CAMom
    If left entirely to his own devices, he will watch TV all day long or play computer games. He has a million legos, tons of books, a bike, a puppy and the opportunity to do any extracurricular activity he wants. But he doesn't want... Last summer he had 5 weeks to just mess around, no structure, no plans nothing. All he wanted to do was watch TV and play on the computer. Okay by me, but not for all the time, all the days.

    Yeah, that's kind of what I suspected you might say. My opinion is that kids are born wanting to learn. If a child turns themselves away from all activities that involve learning or working it is a sign something very significant is broken and wrong in the child's life. Electronics can be a catch 22. The more they do it, the less capable and confident they become, the fewer the opportunities to develop social and emotional resilience... and the more the draw the electronics as a safe zone where the child will never need to grow. Personally rather than trying to address that problem with lessons once or twice a week I'd get rid of electronics and make space for the child to have the sorts of experiences necessary for development of greater competence.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    You asked "So, what exactly is being accomplished? Is the plan forever to force him to do one thing after another until what?"

    The plan is that sometimes, you have to learn to do something that isn't easy. I couldn't care less if he's a gymnast- it was his request. But I do care that when you try something new, you actually commit to TRY it. The very moment you do one cartwheel and it doesn't work out, you can't quit.

    So, is there then an element of breaking his spirit? Eventually he'll see it is for his own good? It doesn't sound like even as it applies only to this isolated activity it hasn't changed his perspective at all. He still thinks people are mean and that it is hard. From my perspective force is an effective way to show kids that learning is unpleasant and working hard is something to avoid unless forced on you.

    With a perfectionist kid I think it is better to set up clear terms of the contract to try an activity ahead of time if possible. So, it might be you are committed to your team for the rest of the season, we paid for lessons for the year, etc. Enough time for the kid to give it a fair try, but not an endless stretch where the child feels like they are being punished for wanting to try something new.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    Frankly, as a middle school administrator, I see WAY too many kids who have never ever been asked to work through something, try something hard or work it out with a friend. Their parents rescue them constantly from any sort of trouble whether it's academic or social. If they get a bad grade, it's the test or the teacher. If a friend is mean and they argue, she's a bully and the school should provide discipline.

    I agree this is a problem. However, I see as really inches from the parents engaging in attempting to force a child to develop self discipline. Rescuing a child from consequences is not a lot different from creating situations to force consequences. Both of these things are about parents taking away responsibility that rests within the child. I'm sure both come from a desire to help the child but both are misguided and miss the fundamental point that as parents we do not have the power force our children to learn. When we get engaged in an oppositional struggle in an attempt to force the child to develop character traits, we have lost the greatest asset we have as parents which is to be trusted guides.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    Everything I've read, and it's a lot, on perfectionism says that the goal is to get a realistic self-image. I'm working hard to get him to understand that a realistic self-image includes that everyone is not good at everything, but you can find joy in the struggle and learning something new.

    From the way you are describing him now a realistic self image might be something like "I'm smart but lazy and fearful. Mostly I just watch TV and play video games. I don't do a lot and the few things I accomplish I only do after crying and having them forced on me." While that might be realistic I'm not really thinking that you want him thinking that about himself. So, are you saying the problem is that right now he thinks he's good at everything and this will show him he's not? Or that he thinks he's good at nothing and this will show him that he is?

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    Originally Posted by eema
    I also wonder whether we, as parents, start our kids too young on many activities.

    Good point. It can be easy when kids are young to get stuck in a fearful place which can lead to unfairly labeling kids with character traits like too lazy to try and then imagining a terrible future where they never grow up to be responsible people. Even if we only do that silently in our heads it can be damaging because it can guide us to pushing unnecessarily and whether we speak our thoughts or not kids, especially gifted ones, can be very good at picking up on that. I'd be much less worried about a six year old not working hard then I would about them believing they were a disappointment to their parents because they don't work hard.

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    From the way you are describing him now a realistic self image might be something like "I'm smart but lazy and fearful. Mostly I just watch TV and play video games. I don't do a lot and the few things I accomplish I only do after crying and having them forced on me." While that might be realistic I'm not really thinking that you want him thinking that about himself. So, are you saying the problem is that right now he thinks he's good at everything and this will show him he's not? Or that he thinks he's good at nothing and this will show him that he is?

    PTP- I find your take on all of this very interesting. Do you not require certain things of your kids? Mine is expected to do certain things- try new foods when presented, use polite manners at the table, be a part of the team and do chores at home, keep his commitments, brush his teeth, change his underwear, give to charity etc.

    Right now, his self image very black and white that he is either perfect or terrible at every single thing. Even as a tiny baby we saw hints of this. He never crawled, he never even toddled. He just got up and literally ran across the room. He spoke the same way, a bit of a late talker but spoke in paragraphs instead of words.

    He did far better last year with a better academic situation, a nurturing teacher who knew when to push and when to fall back and was willing to dabble a little in new things and see what would happen. But he would shut down quickly with any hint of criticism, critique or "how about you try...."

    He wanted to play baseball and begged us to sign him up. He wanted to quit after the first game because he was the only one who didn't get one hit. I told him he needed to finish the season because he made a commitment to the team. Would you have let him quit?

    He is getting better at changing the message in his head. I will hear him say to himself "I just have to practice, I just have to practice" under his breath when he is faced with something new. We went bowling yesterday for the first time- his idea. He threw one ball, fell to the floor crying and insisted he was incapable. I stood next to him, showed him how to move his hand and helped him, all while he cried and told me he'd never hit a pin. The crying and freaking only lasted 2 more attempts. He played two games, doubled his score the second time and was thrilled. In the car he said "I just have to practice!" Should I have let him give up after one attempt simply because he was upset and didn't want to try again?

    Electronics are easy to blame, sure. But we have a no TV and no computer during school week rule in our house. So that doesn't really address the problem or provide an easy out to it. We play hours of board games, read aloud, bake, play with the dogs, ride bikes, build Lego etc. That doesn't mean he has a passion for any of those things.



    Sorry for the thread hijack to the OP!

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    No, I would not have let him quit baseball after the first game. I would have told him that he wanted to sign up, and he needed to finish the season out. But at the end of the season, if he wanted to quit I absolutely would have let him. Nor would I have encouraged my child to quit after throwing their first bowling ball... but if they didn't want to bowl again after that outing, I probably would not have pushed it. Although I might have pointed out that bowling is a frequent birthday party activity, so he might want to go a few more times with the family to develop some basic level of skill.

    D15 begged for dance lessons at about 5, and we signed her up. 2 lessons into it, she knew she hated it (and no surprise to us, it didn't really seem like it would be her thing). At the end of the paid set of lessons, we let her drop it. No harm that I can see, she has a pretty good amount of stick-to-it-iveness now as a 15 year old.

    I just feel like it is hard to have perspective when your kids are still so young. Sure they are gifted, but I think that is all the more reason to treat them with respect and allow them some autonomy in choosing their extracurricular activities. It is especially true with my gifted child that if I want her to treat me with respect, I have to do the same. My message to my kids has been pick it and stick for at least a season/year. But let them explore their options, within reason.

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    Originally Posted by CAMom
    PTP- I find your take on all of this very interesting. Do you not require certain things of your kids? Mine is expected to do certain things- try new foods when presented, use polite manners at the table, be a part of the team and do chores at home, keep his commitments, brush his teeth, change his underwear, give to charity etc.

    I believe in limits for health and safety reasons (I'd extend that to clean underwear) and I believe in the importance of respectful behavior (hey let's put clean underwear there too!) including learning manners.

    Where we may part company is that I believe the one of the least important areas of parenting is in handing down rules and acting to police them. If it came to the point where that's where I saw the place I would help my child grow I would feel I was failing and needing to regroup and change my approach.

    The window in which we have the power to force kids to comply is a very narrow one. Sure a big part of parent of parenting in the early years is ensuring safety through a variety of means including rules. But, ultimately what really matters in the people our children will happen in the choices they make. I believe our best bet in preparing children to make these choices comes from working with them to help them develop self awareness of their own goals and supporting them in recognizing WHY it makes sense to make particular choices.

    My hope for kids is that they will become enthusiastic life long learners and capable people. Force can have a huge way of backfiring on both of those goals. When we take responsibility for our kid's learning we are taking something away from them. It is telling the child you do not believe they will learn unless they are forced. Punishment or making people feel bad doesn't make them want to learn.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    He wanted to play baseball and begged us to sign him up. He wanted to quit after the first game because he was the only one who didn't get one hit. I told him he needed to finish the season because he made a commitment to the team. Would you have let him quit?

    I addressed this idea in an earlier post. I think it is a great idea to make it clear the nature of the commitment and let the child decide in advance. That might be play for the semester or the season to allow for time for the activity to work out. I see this as really different from adding on a requirement midway through the activity or giving unrealistic limits (such as stop saying it is hard for a month and you can quit).

    Again, though I think the real parenting doesn't come in setting the limit - that's the least of it. The bigger part is in helping the kid connect to that good coach or teacher who can help. And, in providing support to help them be a success and when that doesn't work in giving the kid have a safe place to fall knowing you are on their side rooting them on (which is difficult to do when you are primarily in the position of policing and enforcing limits). So, I'd focus on making an agreement up front and letting that agreement be the boss rather than being pushed into a position of conflict where any negative feelings he has are your fault.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    In the car he said "I just have to practice!" Should I have let him give up after one attempt simply because he was upset and didn't want to try again?

    The lesson came not from forcing him to bowl, but from supporting his desire to try bowling and then hearing he was discouraged. And, then in offering him the information and tools he needed to manage the situation. Setting the rule "you must bowl" or "you must bowl until you say it is not hard" wouldn't have gotten him to where he had that wonderful realization.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    Electronics are easy to blame, sure. But we have a no TV and no computer during school week rule in our house. So that doesn't really address the problem or provide an easy out to it. We play hours of board games, read aloud, bake, play with the dogs, ride bikes, build Lego etc. That doesn't mean he has a passion for any of those things.

    Take it for what it is worth, but it has been my observation for some kids it takes a lot longer detox than five days as week. And, really even if the academics are totally easy school can be exhausting so it maybe unrealistic to expect to see passion on a weeknight. It may take extended periods of time to get to the place where he's setting goals for himself and working through the hard parts to get there. Not easy answer though because I understand realistically with extracurriculars and school it can be hard for a lot of kids to get to that place. If you add electronics that narrows the window even further.

    CAMom do you see any generation shift on these matters? I can't imagine my parent's generation extending any energy to feeling like they had to force children to develop the ability to be people capable of feeling competent to learn. It was simply assumed you had responsibilities to the family. It was simply assumed that through your life of playing in the woods and caring for siblings that you would learn to take responsibility. Do you agree there has been some shift? If so what do you attribute that to?



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    Originally Posted by CAMom
    He threw one ball, fell to the floor crying and insisted he was incapable. ... In the car he said "I just have to practice!" Should I have let him give up after one attempt simply because he was upset and didn't want to try again?

    I don't think anyone here has advocated for letting kids give up after a first failed attempt at something. So I'm not sure why assumptions that this is the case keep getting thrown out. The thread is getting long, and I kind of feel like some people aren't reading posts carefully, and then inflame the discussion by making incorrect assumptions about what's been said. If I've inflamed it, I apologize.

    Again, my point in this thread has been that:

    * If a child is consistently unhappy in an extracurricular activity, and

    * Participating wasn't his idea

    the child is being forced/pushed into something, and it may do more harm than good.



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    PTP-
    I did force him to get up and bowl. I wouldn't let him quit, wouldn't listen to his crying. I think you may have this idea that I yell at him like some drill sergeant. Forcing to me is "I won't let you quit on yourself, so when you stop crying we'll try again."

    My parents very much "forced" me to learn. I was required to participate in one athletic activity outside of school (activity of my choice) and practice one musical instrument (instrument of my choice.) My great-grandmother was a cotton-picker in Mississippi and got married at 13. My grandparents were mill workers and prison guards and both of my parents essentially raised their siblings. This wasn't in any way their choice. My mother and her sister are not close now, because she had to be the bad guy growing up. My father moved out at 16 and went to college early, got drafted and went to the military- another thing that he didn't choose to do and certainly didn't inspire lifelong learning.

    I believe this is more of a cultural shift than a generational shift. Countries that are outpacing us in science and math have longer school days and years, compulsory tutoring, intense lessons and focus on education. Sadly, I think our cultural shift has gone in a direction that leads to entitlement, lack of sense of responsibility, blaming others for lack of success and an overall sense of on-demand information.

    I think you may have missed that my son actually enjoys his gymnastics class except for when it's difficult. He is happy in class, wants to go and never complains about getting in the car. It is only the moments when it gets difficult that he wants to quit.

    As for detox- an unrealistic request in my family. My father is a web designer and computer server manager. My brother is a coder and video game designer. My husband is a hard core gamer who also lives with his iPhone everywhere he goes and is on call 24/7 for work. I grew up assembling and disassembling computers for money, we had internet in my home in 1990. We are a serious tech family.

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    Wow - this thread really has grown. I have 2 very lazy gifted kids with monitored access to technology too. They are also homeschooled so they have lots of free time. I think there is a huge difference between a kid hating an activity at it's core and enjoying the pay offs, but struggling with the work. It is our jobs as parents to sort these things on based on our own kids. My son now at age 10 is just coming around to the idea of effort = pay offs. And I definitely see music lessons helping in this regard. I took 7 years of music lessons growing up, and I felt like it was the only thing I did that allowed me to excel at my own level and really drilled home some lessons for me about work ethic. Does that justify a parent "forcing" a child to do something that they hate every second of? No. There is quite a bit of gray area between an entirely self motivated child and a child that is completely forced and hates an activity. Some kids need ongoing encouragement and help to feel successful.

    I also don't see greater value in music lessons than drama, fine art, etc. Because we homeschool, we try do some of all of that. My kids picked their own instruments - granted at age 4 and 5. But I think that ownership in the choice definitely helped. After the first 1-2 years and some sense of mastery, practice is infinitely easier and more fun than getting over that initial hump. My kids also wouldn't do or try anything if I buckled at the first sign of resistance. Music has become a joy for all of us. And if I thought my kids really hated lessons at their core, I would let them quit if they asked (they never have asked to quit - they have asked to skip practice plenty though!)

    Anyway, I feel a bit sorry for the OP of this thread.

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    My dd10 is in a robotics team. During competition season they work upwards of 20-25 hrs a week. Sometimes 8-10 hours straight. The kids, however, don't see this as work. When it is time to go, they don't want to. I think this is what an extra-curricular activity should be like. It should be hard work, challenging, but also bring them joy and not feel like a punishment. There are so many things that can provide challenge and teach perseverance, why not let them choose how they learn those lessons?

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    Originally Posted by Val
    . The thread is getting long, and I kind of feel like some people aren't reading posts carefully, and then inflame the discussion by making incorrect assumptions about what's been said. If I've inflamed it, I apologize.

    Again, my point in this thread has been that:

    * If a child is consistently unhappy in an extracurricular activity, and

    * Participating wasn't his idea

    the child is being forced/pushed into something, and it may do more harm than good.



    Val

    I was thinking the same thing. There's starting to be so many themes entwined here. I was trying to sort out the main one's.
    Child-led Pro's vs. Cons. & other options
    Scheduling Decisions/time management/choice
    Arts-core curriculum or Extra-cirricular?
    Encouragement/pushing, pro's & con's and the line.
    Oh yeah, of course methods of piano instruction


    Then I realized the conversation's happening here, now. Live. I told myself "quit trying to organize other people's comments into categories". LoL at talking to myself.

    Yup. This is getting to be quite a long thread. Um-huh.


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    I vote kimck
    Comment pg. 8

    Can we vote our favorite comments up to the top here like yahoo?


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    intparent, I think we agree that a child who truly loathes something should be allowed to quit, perhaps our only disagreement is when that child may quit. I would ask the child to give the activity some time in order to see if he truly hates it or the effort.

    However, I disagree that asking that of a child is being mean. A parent can be mean and cruel to a child in any number of ways that have absolutely nothing to do with forcing a child to stick with lessons and activities for some period. Even though I expect him to practice, I am not mean to my child (unless you ask him, of course, since I made him quit playing the Wii after 40 minutes today).

    I also concede that I have personal issues in this area that likely influence my thoughts. I was allowed to quit every activity I ever participated in as a child. Ballet, tap, gymnastics, academic decathalon, tennis- you name it. Notice no music in that list? My mother was forced to take a particular instrument for many years despite the fact that she hated it, and she swung the opposite direction and let us quit at the slightest resistance.

    I am trying to work on a balance in this issue, and I think that Jane is as well. If she weren't concerned, she would never have asked the question and faced her doubts/concerns. She would have just told her son to keep playing piano without hesitation.


    And yes, I am generalizing. Most statements on this thread that do not pertain to the poster's own children are generalizations, though. I can only speak from my own experience, but I have noticed a lack of follow through with many. Is that due to not being forced to continue taking swimming lessons when they were 5? I highly doubt it. But it just might be caused by them being allowed to quit swimming at 5, ballet at 7, piano at 10, karate at 11, glee club at 16... I think you get the point.


    Obviously this is a complicated issue, and one that many of us are concerned with. All we can do is try our best, have an open dialogue with our children and provide them with the support and unconditional love they need. But of course that's always easier said than done!

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    Originally Posted by bianc850a
    My dd10 is in a robotics team. During competition season they work upwards of 20-25 hrs a week. Sometimes 8-10 hours straight. The kids, however, don't see this as work. When it is time to go, they don't want to. I think this is what an extra-curricular activity should be like. It should be hard work, challenging, but also bring them joy and not feel like a punishment. There are so many things that can provide challenge and teach perseverance, why not let them choose how they learn those lessons?

    I think that's awesome. But I would also say, you have a pretty self motivated child. My 10 year old would absolutely LOVE to be on a robotics team. He plays with robotics for fun. If I told him the team was a 20 hour a week commitment he would say forget it. If for the first month, I provided support, encouragement, snacks and told him to just hang in there for 4-6 weeks, he would most likely get over the hump and grow to love it. And if he didn't, I'd let him quit.

    I just think every kid is different and every parent needs to know their own kids strengths and weaknesses.

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    Wow! What an intensely passionate and interesting thread! I am so impressed by all of you with your passion and instincts about raising your own unique kids and what is best for them. I feel like somehow I didn't get that gene tells you firmly what to do for your child to ensure the best outcome. I just muddled through the best I could with no real sense of certainty that I was making the right decisions or using the right reasoning.

    Reading this thread though really emphasizes to me how different kids are and how many different approaches may be effective. I really think the most important thing is that we make sure our kids know how much we love them for the unique person that they are, not what they do or accomplish.

    As for digital detox, I tried it once or twice (perhaps too late) with very negative consequences. I was unaware at the time that my DD had a lifeline of online friends from around the globe that got her when no one in her school did. What a dilemma raising a highly gifted kid can be, you never know (at least I don't) when they are manipulating you or really honestly telling you what they need to survive.

    I have to say, I really don't think longer school days are the simple answer for everyone: my DD could learn in 20 minutes what her school taught in a day, and I think the compulsory 8 hours of boredom has stifled her lust for learning. Maybe structuring the lower grades more like college - where kids could test into the class of their ability level for each subject regardless of age would help us be more competitive globally?

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    Originally Posted by kimck
    I think that's awesome. But I would also say, you have a pretty self motivated child. My 10 year old would absolutely LOVE to be on a robotics team. He plays with robotics for fun. If I told him the team was a 20 hour a week commitment he would say forget it. If for the first month, I provided support, encouragement, snacks and told him to just hang in there for 4-6 weeks, he would most likely get over the hump and grow to love it. And if he didn't, I'd let him quit.

    I just think every kid is different and every parent needs to know their own kids strengths and weaknesses.

    Kimck- thank you so much for this. I think you would parent my DS very well! If I didn't provide support, encouragement, snacks and deliver him to the lesson/practice/meeting with a positive attitude from me, he'd never do much of anything! But we've gotten over many humps in trying new things by this method.

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    JaneSmith/OP:

    So... I've enjoyed the extended therapy session(s) with Lucy Van Pelt(s), and will probably undergo some intense self-scrutiny later tonight.

    But in the mean time, assuming you wish to maintain the mantle of evil ogre/overlord, here are some other things that made practice slightly more bearable in our home for child and parent alike:

    1. Skip some nights of practice

    2. Try a couple shorter sessions twice in the same day

    3. Take an extended break (Been discussed, I know...)

    4. Try different practice routines (focus on scales/improv one night, songs on the other).

    5. Spend one or more lessons with the teacher learning how to practice. Sounds silly, but this was actually a great reinforcement for both of us!

    6. Buy/rent/borrow an electronic keyboard -- the more bells & whistles the merrier.

    7. Turn a practice into a jam session. If you can't play the right hand yourself, have HIM teach YOU and then play together. Or have him teach you a chord progression to play while he improvises.

    8. Spend a whole practice playing as fast as he possibly can, while still maintaining some small resemblance to the original piece.

    --------

    Don't recall if you've already discussed this with the teacher. Perhaps teacher can come up with strategies -- working with you and/or your son -- to devise a plan that your son can go along with.

    -- -- --

    Lastly, I reached an interesting turning point with our son a year or so ago. We began having semi-regular conversations before each practice to discuss expectations... his and mine... and how to reach those expectations. Afterward, we would have a debriefing of sorts to discuss what did or did not work. (Not every practice, mind you -- don't want to rub salt in the wound.)

    In particular -- and it sounds silly -- but I made a joke out of an extremely serious element:

    "Don't forget, son, it's called Piano Practice... not Piano Perfect."

    "Our goal for the first day of practice is 'Super-Stinky!'"

    "Our goal for the second day of practice is 'Slightly Less Super-Stinky!'"

    ... and so forth.

    Let him come up with the silly labels, all the while reinforcing the underlying theme. It's not expected to be perfect, and that you're just looking for small, incremental improvement each night.

    -- -- --

    Despite my admittedly ogre-like tendencies, I have no problem with using butter on vegetables, bubble-gum flavored toothpaste, etc., to accomplish a goal... and since my underlying dastardly secret mission is to trick him into a life-long enjoyment of his musical talents, I'll also do whatever necessary to take some of the sting out of piano practice.

    [What spectacular timing for this thread. Our youngest meets with the teacher in a couple weeks to see if she's ready to undergo the methodical crushing of her spirit.]


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    Kimck, I just moved you from my #1 vote. Dandy, you must mean Lucy-fer because that's where you learned to talk like that. All hail Dandy. King of grand central station, Train Locker C-18.


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    Originally Posted by Dandy
    8. Spend a whole practice playing as fast as he possibly can, while still maintaining some small resemblance to the original piece.

    I wonder if Jane's son is just naturally quick. For people who want to move quickly, slowing down can increase the difficulty associated with something.

    By way of example, sometimes my skating teacher or other people at the rink comment on how fast I go when I jump. Not because I'm dangerous or super-good, but because most adult skaters are more conservative than I am, so I stand out a bit. For me, speed and height are fun, and are a major draw of skating. If I slow down at the wrong time, I'm more likely to mess up. Alternatively, when I'm zooming through a waltz jump, I can fly! It's great!

    I wonder if the speed thing might be fun and/or natural for Jane's son, too. Jane, if you haven't fled this thread in horror, have you thought about giving him some short pieces that are meant to be played very fast?

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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    Kimck, I just moved you from my #1 vote. Dandy, you must mean Lucy-fer because that's where you learned to talk like that. All hail Dandy. King of grand central station, Train Locker C-18.

    LOL - it's ok. I thought Dandy's post was great too. And I employ very similar techniques to get practice done around here. 3 little kittens ask my 6 year old to do repetitions. Lego characters battle on our piano. We have a puppet we call "evil practice dragon". We have a staples easy button we push when the kids have mastered something - "That was easy!". laugh We're in with the bubble gum flavored toothpaste too.

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    Originally Posted by Katelyn'sM om
    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    One thing I've always wondered about... Why music rather than art? Many people see it as a standard necessity that kids learn an instrument but very few people mandate drawing or dance lessons. Why is that?

    Why the assumption that it is either or? Though my DD is only 4 she has a love for dance, drawing/art of many types, and the piano.

    Of course kids can do both and many do. My question is why do we so often hear the suggestion of music lessons as a way to teach gifted kids discipline but we rarely hear drawing lessons advocated in the same way? Is it just because there is a better infrastructure for music lessons or is there something else that motivates this?

    Got it ... good question. Coming from an art background my guess is Music is a complex activity. They have to not only learn the notes but also beat which leads into math. Drawing is a more free form activity. Children will not necessarily have the ability to articulate their vision. And if drawing was taught with structure it would definitely lead to frustration. Creativity for dance and drawing/art is achievable but the requirements are less than music. (If that makes sense.) But ALL are important.

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    IMHO, music combines and develops:

    --gross motor skills
    --fine motor skills
    --creativity / interpretive skills / intuition
    --history
    --perceiving and using part/whole relationships and abstract form
    --emotional awareness
    --awareness of/ quantification of time

    (and probably more)

    All the arts are good for this kind of multifaceted learning. But I think music is especially nice for its mix of abstractness and concreteness.

    DeeDee

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    It's an interesting question, whether one can force a child to love the piano: sort of a Stockholm approach to music appreciation. I guess it's possible that the musical knowledge gained through "encouraged" practice might result in the ability to pick up other instruments a person winds up loving.

    I just don't remember the last time I read about a musical genius who was forced to study music, or a particular instrument, despite lack of interest. I thought Beethoven was an example, but it appears that there's no support for the idea that he was forced to practice in misery. Thus it seems unlikely that there's a massive hothousing effect to be gotten by forced practice for the highly gifted, who tend to be stubborn by nature. Still, we're not all cut out to be music geniuses, and there's value for the rest of us in appreciating and playing music.

    So I'm on the fence. I have been thinking about starting DS5 on piano lessons, but then again, he's asked (we have had a nice consumer Yamaha keyboard since he was an infant, and he's been trying out chords lately on his own).

    I think that there is a strong but usually unspoken idea in American culture, at least, that playing music enhances math ability and perhaps other areas of general cognitive ability as well. I don't know if it's based on anything real, but would be interested to learn. Is it a sort of hothouser's meme, based on popularly hyped notions like the Mozart effect? It seems certain that music, which is like DeeDee says a complex activity with many things going for it, is better than sitting around picking one's nose for developing general cognitive ability, except for fine motor control of that one finger, and maybe developing a mental 3D model of the unseen.


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    I have a lot of thoughts on this issue, but not enough time--I did hear Yo Yo Ma interviewed and he said he hated practicing as a child. It doesn't seem to have scarred him!

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    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    I have a lot of thoughts on this issue, but not enough time--I did hear Yo Yo Ma interviewed and he said he hated practicing as a child. It doesn't seem to have scarred him!

    I would be very cautious about generalizing based on the experience of child prodigies to kids who aren't prodigies. Decisions that make sense for a prodigious child may not make any sense for a child with different talents and needs.

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    CAMom - It is a safe bet that no matter what you do he will cry less as he gets older. My concern about the current system is that for perfectionist kids it is important to keep the stakes low of trying new things. If he knows every new activity is going to bring on those extreme feelings of despair and helplessness only solvable by other people that isn't an incentive to keep trying activities. If the solution every time is that adults force or push him to get through that further reinforces that he's pretty helpless. I'm wondering if more progress and success may be made in advance planning including creating a system by which he can take a break until he can get himself feeling calm and back on track.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    My parents very much "forced" me to learn.

    So, I guess, not surprisingly we are both carrying on family traditions! As a kid I considered my activities my own. I recognized they were a gift in that they were expensive for the family, but I considered it my responsibility to make the most of the gift. I didn't want to parents present or in the middle of it. That would have spoiled it for me because activities were a place for independence, for developing relationships with teachers and teammates that were my own and for taking responsibility for my own learning. I can't imagine my parent being in the middle of it begging me to participate or threatening me. It would have erased what was the value of the activity.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    I believe this is more of a cultural shift than a generational shift. Countries that are outpacing us in science and math have longer school days and years, compulsory tutoring, intense lessons and focus on education.

    I agree there are significant cultural problems but I don't think more of the same is the solution. Kids do more activities than ever and more parents than ever are more involved in their kids' activities. A generation ago soccer moms weren't the norm. We had moms who were in the other room drinking coffee while their kids rode their bikes to the baseball field.

    Originally Posted by CAMom
    As for detox- an unrealistic request in my family.

    IT pays the bills here too and we've chosen not to have electronics at the center of our home. It is an option, maybe not an appealing one to you, but it does exist as an option. The parents' occupation doesn't have to be the defining force behind the way a child spends his or her free time.

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    My D's violin teacher has been a violinst in the symphony for 40 years. My D was complaining to him about practicing. She loves to play, but doesn't like practicing. Her teacher admitted that, even after 40 years, he still doesn't like practicing.

    I'm fairly sure he doesn't cry about it anymore, although I can't confirm that.

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    In the case of my kids, it was easy for me to distinguish between hating to practice and hating to play the instrument. My D did have some crying spells early on, and still hates for me to critique her, but she loves to play.

    My S hated practicing violin. When he told his violin teacher to her face that he hated everything about the violin, I had to take the hint and let him quit. He's happily playing a different instrument now.

    I personally prefer instruments that allow kids to play in an ensemble setting (orchestra or band), particularly as they get into middle school and high school. My experience is that the interaction with other kids - and some friendly competition - can motivate them to practice and continue to play.

    Neither of my kids started on piano. I didn't either - I started on a band instrument in middle school, and picked it up very quickly although I had not yet learned to read music. I played all the way through college.

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    Quote
    One thing I've always wondered about... Why music rather than art? Many people see it as a standard necessity that kids learn an instrument but very few people mandate drawing or dance lessons. Why is that?

    I just wanted to respond to this quote as well as a reason why musical training is best started early.

    Someone mentioned the Mozart effect, which was greatly exaggerated in the media. That said, there is solid evidence that early musical training produces measurable changes in the left hemisphere of the brain, and likely to connections to other areas of the brain (see Fujioka et. al. 2006, One year of musical training affects development of auditory cortical-evoked fields in young children.Brain 129. Another group of researchers looked at brain differences in musicians and found that anatomical changes (i.e. enlarged corpus callosum increased gray matter in auditory areas, etc.)in musician's brains were highly correlated with the age at which they began musical training and the amount of practice (see Schlaug et. al, 1995.) There are also studies about absolute pitch and early music training out there if anyone is interested.

    Just thought I'd offer some research, if people are interested. It is always good to make informed decisions, I believe.

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    I agree about the guitar.

    My D went to one of the talent search summer programs, and when we checked her in, I noticed several kids with guitars. I thought that was a great idea - a very good way to meet new people in that setting.

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    (said with trepidation and tongue in cheek)
    ... Whatever that means?

    I was just saying look, there's lot's of other possible reasons he doesn't want to practice. �The divorce is a glaring red flag. �The whole child-led movement debate was really kind of out of place according to the topic �posted about a Real-life person's individual family situation. �This quiestion was about a child's current situation, not a generalized opinion poll. �I've never read an arguement here. �I hope I'm not out of line for saying this. �Val, I know I don't share your core beliefs but I still eagerly look forward to reading your posts because you always come up with single-post common-sense packed zingers. �Slightly jaded the way I like 'em. �PtP, you've always stood firmly for the child-led camp but you've always been tolerant and loving to everybody.
    It's like four of you got togeather and was proselytizing a certain parenting style last night. �You were getting very silly. �I think because all the new age parenting gets accepted some places like it's the best answer, it doesn't really get discussed much anywhere, rationally anyway. �It's more like a religion that you buy 100% or you don't. �It's ok. �The people here quiestion everything, nobody's sacred cows are safe- I sincerely hope. �I was so glad Dandy spoke up because that's the kind of greatness I'm used to reading here. �

    Just my whiny opinion. �Hope's it's ok to say that and we're all still friends. �I feel like I should delete this before anybody actually reads it. �Ugh.

    Dear Jane Smith,�
    If you want to discuss what's on you're heart please start another thread. �I'd like to thank you from all of us for sacrificing your thread for this truly important conversation about universal piano lessons. �
    �� � � � � � � � � � �Sincerly,
    �� � � � � � � � �La Texican Smith


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    P.s.
    I'm usually all-for generalized parenting discussions. �I have two new kids and opinions help me think. �I'm just being morphed by all these new mommy hormones and my new mommy brain is sitting in my head sounding like Angela Lopez from tv saying something about acknowledging Jane Smith's real feelings and something about something she needs to discuss. �I'm not sure what. �My mommy brain signals aren't comming in that clearly yet. �Carry on.


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    La Texican,

    I love you, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

    smile

    Val

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    Good, at least you still love me. I was just trying to draw attention to if Mrs. Jane Smith wants to talk some more about her problems besides just the mozart effect- that everybody here loves her and will be glad to talk about what's going on with her son right now, maybe in a new thread.


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    Actually, I'm probably just out of line. I just read that there's a lot going on right now and there's an 8 yr old boy who used to like piano enough to go to several piano camps, who right now, with one parent leaving the scene, no longer wants to take piano lessons. And then I saw a lot of answers just debating the value of parents making kid's play and instrument they don't like, and the value of who choses what extra cirriculars. I just kind of thought this child's needs got lost in over-generalized advice. I shouldn't have said nothing. My thoughts aren't concrete enough to verbalize correctly. But, I said it out loud. Too late. Ha-ha. Oops.


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    Open mouth. Insert foot. Yuck! not again?


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    Originally Posted by Val
    Originally Posted by Giftodd
    I don't see that the people suggesting that forcing a child to play an instrument they don't enjoy are saying that a child should be allow to give up anything that has made them cry once in a while (though they're welcome to correct me if I am wrong).

    What I see them saying is that if it is causing unhappiness then there is a question about whether or not it is worth doing. If it is persistence and resilience you're after there is a great book call the Optimistic Child by Martin Seligman (former president of the American Psychological Association).

    This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks.

    I'll definitely check out the book.

    Val


    Val I meant stuff like this. Nothing you said was wrong or out of line, I just thought this parenting philosophy track had little to do with this family's problem. And a lot of this long thread has been devoted to random parenting philosophy rather than helping little Johnny Smith. I just now tripped over my own tongue saying I don't believe the same as your core beliefs because you're a Christian and a homeschooler, but that doesn't stop me from loving the things you say and looking forward to reading your posts because you always come up with some great common sense stuff. That's what i was trying to say, so you would know that i love you. In this case my fingers went faster than my brain and let out a mud puddle of ideas that weren't concrete yet. And yep, I said it outloud. Ah *blushing bright red*


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    Eta: I was partially homeschooled, but I'm on the fence. I probably won't homeschool my kid's. But it's an option. My nephew will be homeschooled. Sorry Mrs. Jane Smith for derailing your thread with my own personal embarrassing train wreck here. *blushing brighter with a super embarrassed grin*


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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    I just now tripped over my own tongue saying I don't believe the same as your core beliefs because you're a Christian and a homeschooler...

    Emm. I'm basically atheist and my kids aren't homeschooled.

    Think it's time to kill this thread. PM me if you have any other questions!

    smile

    Val

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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    Open mouth. Insert foot. Yuck! not again?

    Since this was my most recent fumble in front of the whole school I dug it back up just to post this great link about Shame and fear and connection. So, it's nothing like a piano lesson. http://giftedforlife.com/1506/but-im-not-good-enough/


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    I saw this on another list today. Seems to address a number of issues running through this thread.

    WSJ article on parenting called "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior"

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    Thank you for posting this. I particularly liked the summary:

    "There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.

    Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away."

    I also believe, and have posted my opinions, that with a more and more competitive world, you have to be more of a "Chinese" parent just to give your child options in the world.

    I push DD on pieces, when she is first learning, not insulting but strict and demanding. And when she can get over the hurdle and play it, she will go to the piano and play it and play it and loves to play it at the recital or concert (she has started to play concerts). But getting over the hurdle of learning a difficult piece almost kills me. There is usually a fight. But there was a fight on the skating rink last night. She has been wanting to "skate". I told her it was a difficult sport in NYC but I would teach her and she would have to cooperate with working on technique just like in piano or ballet or gymnastics. She got angry with me as I started to work with her. There was much falling (though she had her leg warmers pulled up over her knees and nylon pants over that). I told her that I fell so much during practice with just tights on before I could do a jump properly. But she got to the other side, the technique improved, she got excited at her improvement. But there was a tantrum, angry words (from her) before the mid-point.

    Now my child can do crossovers and a pretty good side stop and feels very proud of herself.

    Ren


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    WSJ article would be funny if it is not actually pretty accurate. I don't know whether to cry or to laugh.

    My daughter wrote an essay on the same topic in high school, echoing some of same observations. Here it is, for the kick.

    ========================

    How to be a perfect Chinese-American kid

    By Yiren L (age 14)

    THERE are many inside jokes circulating around the Chinese-American community, but one is particularly relevant, and in a way, bitterly funny.

    "To be a perfect Chinese-American kid," it goes, "you must score 2,400 on the SAT; apply to and be accepted by 27 colleges, all of them in the top parameters of the annual US News & World Report rankings; and win enough scholarships to pay for it. Have three hobbies: math, piano, and more math; love classical music and detest talking on the phone; and lastly, accept your parents' unfortunate fashion choices with enthusiasm."

    The joke reflects the fact that lofty aspirations have become a standard expectation, and of course, it reinforces the stereotype of the corkscrew glasses wearing, eternally studying, and no social life-ing Chinese American dork, who, to the dismay of his former tormentors, ends up becoming an Internet billionaire by the age of 25.

    It's a rather uglifying stereotype, except for the billionaire part. But as the saying goes, a stereotype isn't a stereotype if it is not at least partially true.

    It was back in the 1980s when Chinese-Americans first began entering elite institutions like Harvard, Princeton and Stanford in mammoth numbers that the mainstream USA realized the scope of their academic excellence.

    In other words, they noticed that "Hey, Chinese kids are really smart."

    Everyone from talk-show hosts to Popular Mechanics Magazine was fascinated by the supposedly new phenomenon. They tried to pinpoint its origins, bottle it, harness it, find that magical elixir that seemed to take every fresh off-the-boat Chinese immigrant and stuff his mailbox with big fat acceptance envelopes.

    It seemed like every family with a last name of Wong had three sons who were top of their class at Harvard, or three model daughters with perfect moon-pie faces and GPAs in the 5.0 range.

    Piano competitions became a wide swath of Asian territory, dominated by little musical prodigies with black hair and cheeky barrettes. California MATHCOUNTS state top-10 finals were inevitably dominated by 7th and 8th grade Chinese boys in bowl cuts and corduroys, scribbling answers to impossible math problems, their proud parents answering congratulations with the usual Chinese humility, "No, no, he's lazy, doesn't like to study at all, always wants to watch television, play with his friends."

    Of course, watching TV and hanging out with your buddies are two entirely unacceptable pastimes in the Chinese American culture, except under certain circumstances when you're watching a documentary about Napoleon Bonaparte on the History Channel, or studying for the Academic Decathlon.

    And then there's the unavoidable competition.

    The science test results are always succeeded by an interrogation regarding the scores of the top students in the class. Course grades are eagerly compared among anxious Chinese parents. "What about this girl," they ask. "How did she do?"

    Chinese-American kids are expected to maintain up-to-date records on everyone's SAT I, SAT II, and AP grades.

    An awful lot of articles have been written about the "infamous" Chinese-American overachievers. An awful lot of words have been spent denying it.

    You can debate endlessly about whether these seemingly impossible expectations actually help or hurt these Chinese kids. It's probably both.

    The pressure and the competition and the stereotypes are unavoidable as a Chinese American kid. It comes with the territory.

    I, for one, have learned to embrace it.

    No other parents are as supportive and dedicated when it comes to education as Chinese parents.

    No other culture gives more chances for inside jokes and hysterical anecdotes.

    And when you look at people like Jerry Yang, the founder of Yahoo, and Steve Chan, the founder of YouTube, or the legions of lawyers, scientists, doctors, and musicians, who made it alive through the gauntlet process, and who are living extraordinarily happy and successful lives, it's hard not to be convinced that maybe there's something right in Chinese-American parenting styles.


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    A business partner - 1st generation Chinese-American - forwarded me that article this morning, saying that it could have been written by either his mother... or his wife. While I don't know his mom that well, I do agree about his wife. And I know how my partner turned out. As did his kids. Wow.

    As I read the article, I alternated between shocked, amazed & horrified. I thought of this recent thread and thought a link to this article would be a nice little addition. Definitely makes me look like a gosh-darn little fairy god mother in comparison.

    I laughed out loud a couple of times while reading. First, when Chuan rattled off her checklist of things her children are *not* allowed to do:
    � attend a sleepover
    � have a playdate
    � be in a school play
    (I wonder how she reacted to the suicide in Dead Poets Society?)
    � watch TV or play computer games
    � choose their own extracurricular activities
    � get any grade less than an A
    � not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
    � play any instrument other than the piano or violin

    Ha! Just this week, DS violated just about every one of her rules, yet seems no worse for wear. Heck, he spent five hours playing in the woods yesterday, hunting for reptiles and insects and climbing trees. (The horror!)

    My second fit of laughter came at the end of the article... you wanna know how to really and truly cause fits & hair-pulling in a Chinese Mother?

    Simple.

    Just tell her that your profoundly-gifted 7yo learned "Little White Donkey" in about a week, practicing only 20 minutes per day, and only five days in that week... having easily spent more time than that playing computer games. And that he's the top of his class in everything *including* gym with very little, if any effort required... despite being grade-accelerated twice.

    I've never used the dreaded P.G. term with anyone in real life, and would certainly never rattle off DS's accomplishments like this, but I'd be more than happy to share with an Amy Chuan type any day, just to see the rage burn in her eyes. Although... I suppose I'd feel awfully sorry for what her kids would suffer as a result: "You know what that little Western boy does? Do you? Well, DO YOU!?!?!? GET BACK TO YOUR PIANO NOW!"

    I will admit, I've occasionally wondered what my son could accomplish if I forced hours upon hours of practice & homework... but I really & truly love it when he comes home from a day-long adventure in the woods that would make Calvin & Hobbes proud.


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    I graduated from Harvard Medical School with Honors. That was the first time I encountered "the perfect Asian student." On the one hand, these students were very organized and worked incredibly hard. On the other hand, many made mediocre or even poor doctors since they had rote-memorized many things, yet many were unable to apply the knowledge in the flexible fashion you need to be a great doctor.
    Now that I have kids, I do try to make sure they have their math facts down cold, "like the asian kids." Many of them do the rote-memorization Kumon prep, which we avoid, since I don't want my kids to lose that flexible thinking. FYI...

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    <My second fit of laughter came at the end of the article... you wanna know how to really and truly cause fits & hair-pulling in a Chinese Mother?

    Simple.

    Just tell her that your profoundly-gifted 7yo learned "Little White Donkey" in about a week, practicing only 20 minutes per day, and only five days in that week... having easily spent more time than that playing computer games. And that he's the top of his class in everything *including* gym with very little, if any effort required... despite being grade-accelerated twice.>

    The type of Chinese mother you seem to be imagining would simply reply, 'And think what he could accomplish if he actually put forth some effort!'

    I think you're missing one of the main points of the piece. It seems to me that at least one of the primary goals the (stereotypical) Chinese parents described in the article have for their children has both great moral virtue and great practical value: they want their kids to learn how to work hard, and learn the satisfaction, even joy, that comes of working hard at something.

    Though I'm a 'Western' parent, my approach to child-raising is very similar to what Amy Chua (not Chuan) describes. There are two main reasons:

    First, my son is a perfectionist. If he has trouble at the beginning of a learning process, he still, at age 11, tends to give up. I don't let him. So just yesterday, we had a scene at the piano that was similar to the one in Chua's article (though shorter and less intense). What would my son's approach to school, or topics he's interested in, or life in general, be if I hadn't started doing this years ago? I shudder to think.

    And the benefits, to him, of learning persistence do not stop at being able to stick with something difficult. When he masters something that he previously thought was impossible, he radiates joy. So there is a huge emotional payoff -- his self-esteem, to bring up a primary concern of (stereotypical) Western parents, is in much better shape than it would be if I had let him shy away from challenge.

    Second, everything came as easily to me when I was young as it seems to for your child. I don't remember having to work hard to earn great grades in school, or get high scores on standardized tests. As a result, I had a nasty shock in some college courses and in grad school when I was confronted with the necessity of really stretching my intellectual ability, whether in reading, seminar discussion or writing papers.

    There's also a more selfish reason why I approve of the Eastern approach -- I teach at my kids' school, which has families from over two dozen countries, including many from South and East Asia. Their children are a joy to teach: eager for challenge, with huge banks of prior knowledge and unending curiosity about the subject. They really keep me on my toes!


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    Dandy, I agree with hip about the shock when I learned the habit of not applying myself. I could still get through college math without the work but I didn't learn anything. Dandy, you are not doing your child any favors.

    DD is across the hall on a playdate now. I am not so strict that she cannot do it. But she did piano this morning and then ballet class, lunch and then finished her piano practice before playdate. She committed herself to this concert of contemporary composers and she is going to do the work (yes, she is only 6 but she was asked to perform and she said yes)

    I had a talk with DD at bed last night. I told her that dad and I are "mean" because we want her to have options when she is 20. We will make her practice piano, and apply herself in other areas and demand good manners (she went to a manners dinner at the Harvard club and I would do it again 4X a year) so that she can do anything she wants.

    My parents came from Europe after WW2 and all they had was their education to rebuild from scratch. Just like all the Jewish doctors after WW2 because those parents came with nothing and "drilled" it into their kids to get an education -- they were the Chinese parents a generation ago.

    I think if you come from a family where real difficulty or tragedy, like a war, has not hit your home and you have lost everything, then you can cater to an attitude that you are being cruel to your children. The question yet to be answered, who is really being cruel to their chilren? The "chinese" style parent that gives their child options (the option to do nothing and write poetry under a tree is always available after you are 21) or the parent who hopes that their graduate will somehow find his way and a job and out of your home before he reaches 30.

    Ren

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    I'd say that the vast majority of my arguments have been in favor of teaching our kids a little persistence/perseverance/etc. As a most recent example, during the eleven pages of discussion that preceded the post regarding Chua's article, I was quite decidedly in the Evil Ogre camp, in that I considered piano to be a requirement in our house, even when practices occasionally turned into Battles of Will.

    Similarly, one of my favorite articles is still "What a Child Doesn't Learn," which discusses the importance of keeping kids appropriately challenged. I shared that countless times here and with most of the teachers at my son's school, as it succinctly expresses my underlying concerns about letting him coast though school.

    I experienced the same nasty shock as you upon my first foray in higher education, and it wasn't until we were contemplating our son's first skip (into 1st @ age 4) that I fully understood what led up to the hitting-the-wall in college.

    Largely due to my own experience, my approach with his education was to make sure he was challenged & stretched as much as possible. He'd already grown very complacent by 2nd grade and was addicted to the easy As he collected as a result of his intellect, leaving him extremely fearful of anything that even remotely resembled a challenge.

    By pushing for the second skip in 4th, with an additional year skip in math, he began to realize how spoiled he had been previously. Now when he pulls of straight As, I feel as though he's actually done something to earn them. But I most certainly do not go into flying fits of rage over an A- or B+.

    I don't think I missed Chua's points in her essay, either major or minor. And, while I hoped she was writing at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek , I think she was dead serious about the superiority of her overall approach. (Unless, of course, I totally missed some of that stereotypical Chinese Mother subtle humor.)

    As for my fanciful desire to poke Chua's approach right in the eye, by Chinese partner said I nailed it. You are still correct, though, (and I thought it went without saying) that she would think me an idiot for not squeezing every last drop out of my own children, but it would absolutely drive her to distraction (and beyond) that her child had been outdone by some lazy bug-hunting Western high-nose.

    Just like the Asian influence in our household cooking, I have no problem adopting certain aspects of Chua's approach, but I'd not sign up to take an immersion class on becoming a Chinese Mother. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just have slightly different goals for my kids.


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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Dandy, you are not doing your child any favors.
    C'mon Wren, you've been around here long enough to know I don't roll that way.

    Quote
    DD is across the hall on a playdate now. I am not so strict that she cannot do it. But she did piano this morning and then ballet class, lunch and then finished her piano practice before playdate.
    If this is true, then you have failed as a "Chinese Mother," at least within the construct described by Chua. At best you would be a Westernized Chinese Mother in her view.

    How would you react to an A-... or heaven forbid... a B+!?!?

    Would you express an even-tempered insistence on improvement, or would there be "first a screaming, hair-tearing explosion" followed by running to get "dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with [your] child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A"?

    I think I've read enough of your posts 'round here to know that while you may be more demanding than I am (and many people are), you probably don't hold a candle to the Land-of-Enchantment that Chua describes.


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    No pressure. But we're watching the gymnastic and skating spectacular on NBC and the boy's running around the room doing tumbles and the girl's smiling and cooing. I guess they better be a jock and a cheerleader. LoL.

    Wren I love reading your posts about all the opportunities you provide your daughter. We're not in that position in this location but I think you're life is a pleasure to read about.

    You posted that link Dandy? The reigning champ of the piano thread defends his title!


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    Here's an interesting response from a piano teacher to Ms. Chua's article.

    Did anyone read through the comments on the article? I saw a lot of long comments written by people who described their upbringings under the type of parenting described by Ms. Chua, and the vast majority wrote...well, negatively. This one is particularly wrenching. It's a YouTube link supplied by a commenter.

    In all honesty, the method described by Ms. Chua seems to me to be best-suited to people who are smart but aren't terribly creative and who wish to ensure that their kids are successful inside the box. The Chua approach is well-suited to this, as it teaches (forces?) children to do what their elders or superiors tell them and not to question what they're told. Thus, it produces people who get along well at work, get promoted, and have many external indicators of success.

    But it won't produce the original thinkers who shake up things and move a field or a society in new directions. This is because the "DO IT THE WAY I SAID TO!!!" method doesn't teach children to think originally, challenge authority, and think of groundbreaking solutions to problems or field-changing ideas (e.g. in theoretical physics, politics, or energy generation). Giving children no or very little say in the choice of extracurriculars and other things also discourages them from exploring an idea simply because it might be interesting. When you're taught that the only way to succeed is follow a prescribed course and to do what senior people tell you do to, the way they tell you to do it, you can't develop the ability to question ideas that everyone accepts (though they might be wrong). Again, this is fine if you want to have external indicators of success and want the same for your child --- though it's a shame that the child doesn't get any say in things (at least, not under the philosophy advocated by Ms. Chua).

    It seems that some of the people who grow up this way clearly do have creativity and find a way to overcome their upbringings (for an example, see the YouTube video I referenced). These people must be have very strong characters and I really admire them.

    Val


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    No -- the link came from Kaibab.

    I learned about the article from a Chinese business partner -- he thought it was a riot and wanted to share. As soon as I got to the author's gentle approach regarding piano indoctrination, I immediately thought of this thread. Obviously I was not alone!

    Dandy

    p.s.
    Our daughter was deemed ready for ritualistic torture-by-ivory after our meeting with the piano instructor last week!!! She already learned her first song and knows the names of all the white keys. I'll bet three hours of practice per day will turn her into a virtuoso in no time at all.

    It'd be an interesting experiment to apply the more "intense" approach with her and see how she fares compared to her brother, who we practically coddled all along by some measurements. Just imagine the possibilities!


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    I'm not done reading it but I stopped to post I caught myself unconsciously shaking my head "yes" like a bobblehead doll while reading the piano teachers response. Lazy "westerners", hoping for talent and cruel "Chinese mothers" forcing mindless drills until midnight so the cute puppy can do a trick by morning are both wrong. Everybody's all wrong. (especially me for repeating those bigoted name-callings. You're right lucounu, i'm prejudice and I'm going to hades). You need to give the kid's tools and skills complete with understanding and this should be patiently cultivated and it takes time. I was, I was sitting there shaking my head yes while I was reading this.


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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    Lazy "westerners", hoping for talent and cruel "Chinese mothers" forcing mindless drills until midnight so the cute puppy can do a trick by morning are both wrong.

    But talent (like IQ) is real, and lots of practice can only compensate so much for a lack of it. There's also a vast middle ground between expecting to get by on talent alone (never works) and expecting to be a huge success with practice alone (also doesn't work).

    Think of people who pick something up in days --- yet it takes weeks or months for others who are average to get the same thing. Talent did that, not practice.

    Think of people who can run faster than all the other kids in the school when they're ten. Talent did that, not practice. Practice is what will turn those kids into athletes who compete at a national level or higher.

    Think of people who are forced to sit at the piano until they get the piece, because Mommy said so. They might play the piece eventually, but some won't be able to transfer the technique to a new piece. Practice did that. Not talent.

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    It's good to think about. I followed a link from the piano teacher's comments to someone's blog calling Amy Chan "authoritarian". Reminded me about a line in the book "parenting the gifted child" about three types of parenting- authoritarian, authoratative, and permissive. The best choice is authoritative. I guess the best lessons in that is Cesar Milan's teachings on how to be a pack leader. How to be gently assertive, calm but not cruel. And in charge.
    http://academicsfreedom.blogspot.com/2011/01/focus-on-effort-not-talent.html
    And this guy from the piano teacher's comments brought it back to Carol Dweck. I suppose Carol Dweck's research can help us know when, and how, and why to push.


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    Originally Posted by hip
    First, my son is a perfectionist. If he has trouble at the beginning of a learning process, he still, at age 11, tends to give up. I don't let him. [quote=hip] So just yesterday, we had a scene at the piano that was similar to the one in Chua's article (though shorter and less intense). What would my son's approach to school, or topics he's interested in, or life in general, be if I hadn't started doing this years ago? I shudder to think.

    Perhaps he would have found out that learning his job, his success and his joy. Seems what he's learned from the current system is that ultimately it is your responsibility not his. Over the long term how do you see that playing out. Will you be standing over him in middle school, high school, college, on the job? Is he supposed to get the experience again and again that learning is a result of force, but then at some point this morphs into him becoming a self motivated learner and motivated person?

    Originally Posted by hip
    As a result, I had a nasty shock in some college courses and in grad school when I was confronted with the necessity of really stretching my intellectual ability, whether in reading, seminar discussion or writing papers.

    I agree that can be a huge problem and it is one of the reasons we decided to allow our child to radically accelerate. No matter how how well meaning parental pushing and badgering is not an adequate substitute for a sufficiently challenging curriculum and educational environment.

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    So what happens in Asia where Amy Chua types abound? The bar gets crazy high as parents push their kids even harder every year for that extra half mark so that their kids can come in first in the class/ standard among a sea of hot housed kids. Really, if the kid had any ounce of creativity, all that will be worked out of him at the end of his education. There are " model answers" to memorize for everything from grade 1 onwards. And why? Because if you tried to compose a story on your own, you will make mistakes or the story won't be as polished, so you won't get full marks. There are so many stories of kids writing the same essays for an assignment/exam because they go to the same tuition classes. No room for error is the mantra! This thinking is institutionalized. If schools gave exams according to the grade level, the likelihood is that in many schools, the entire class will score full marks. So the screws have been turning. Its an unofficial truth that grade levels here are at least 1-2 years ahead of western counterparts. What happens if the child can't cope despite draconian means? I shudder to think. On a national scale, where's the creativity?

    It wasn't so bad a generation ago when I was growing up. But these days, there are so many horror stories ala Amy Chua that would make any sane person's hair curl. I had no idea when my PG son was younger that I shouldn't talk about what he just did. Little did I know I was making sworn enemies and causing more pain to other kids around us as some mothers stepped to the fore to compete. These days, I'm much wiser and we keep very mum about achievements.

    To those of you who're committed to your child's success, and who isn't, it doesn't have to be crazy. It really is obvious where the lines are drawn beyond where a parent should never cross. I see a lot of parents who have confused their egos with their kids', so if their child doesnt do well, they feel personally insulted and they become ruthless at implementation because they feel they've been wronged (by their own child!). True, don't let your child give up. But it doesn't have to happen in the shortest time possible in a continuous, punishing way. Try another method. Short term failure and making mistakes are among the best ways to learn - we should all take advantage of that!

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    <Perhaps he would have found out that learning his job, his success and his joy.>

    I'm not sure what that sentence is supposed to say.

    <Seems what he's learned from the current system is that ultimately it is your responsibility not his.>

    I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion without talking with my son. For his attitude to personal responsibility, see below.

    <Over the long term how do you see that playing out. Will you be standing over him in middle school, high school, college, on the job? Is he supposed to get the experience again and again that learning is a result of force, but then at some point this morphs into him becoming a self motivated learner and motivated person?>

    Short answer to the last question: yes.

    Learning how to tackle a difficult task is, for a perfectionist, partly a result of force. Somebody has to make him try. When ds was younger, that somebody was always me.

    But because four years ago I found a learning environment for him that challenges him, I have -- thank heavens! -- been able over these past four years to pull back gradually and let him take over the job of approaching difficulties. Now I have a son who is developing an inner strength and an attitude to challenge that I used to despair of seeing in him.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but because of the process I started years ago, I don't have to 'stand over him' much at all anymore. In academic areas it hasn't been necessary for two years, because now in 7th grade he's setting his own goals, making a plan to reach them, and implementing it -- pretty much on his own. (I have to say 'pretty much' because he is a typical PG kid -- sometimes has his head in the clouds!)

    Now that I think about it, piano is the only thing that still causes minor meltdowns, which I'm guessing is because he's only been at it for about 15 months. But even those are happening less often as he gains confidence in his abilities.

    One anecdote, from when he was 5: at the pool one day, standing in the shallow end with him, I made him bend forward and put his face in the water. It probably took ten minutes, and involved (at the end, after reasoning, persuading, promising rewards etc. had failed) my threatening to take away, one by one, all his plastic dinosaurs. Near the end of the process, I was getting fed up and about to give up, when he looked up, in tears, and said, 'Don't stop -- I like it when you make me do things.' I was floored.

    Over the next few weeks he became an avid swimmer.

    I've noticed in several areas that if he can be gotten over the initial hump, not only do his abilities really take wing, but his emotional well-being just soars.

    I have wondered since the pool incident whether he found his perfectionism so frustrating that he actually appreciated having an external force that was greater than it was, so that with the help of that force he could conquer it.

    Now that he can in effect get himself over 'humps' caused by fear of failing to live up to his own standards (my mantra at the piano over the last year has been 'You're the only one of us who is disappointed in your playing'), he is no longer at the mercy of that fear.







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    I noticed in fine print in that article "not all in china practice 'tough love". I also saw there's a link to a blog that she will answer quiestions emailed to that link on tuesday. So, what were the main quiestions again?
    How do the kid's learn anything besides mindless obedience that way?
    Doesn't that make your kids incompetent, unable to think on their toes?
    Are you going to keep meddling in their life for the rest of their life?

    Was that the main quiestions and concerns about what became of her daughters? Or maybe, what was the point of all that? Would they not have been successful otherwise?

    I kinda don't like these quiestions because they're thinly disguised opinions instead of the infamously "inquisitive, creative, thoughtful quiestions.". I honestly can't think of any better quiestions because my mother tough loved my poor brain out. I wish could think of an open minded skeptics quiestion for her. That would truly prove that westerner thinking is more better than her. Mwaa-haa-haa. But I can't. We're still better IMO. I just want a good quiestion she hasn't heard before. One that makes her think on her toes, think outside the box.


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    Ahhhh!!!!! I just read the bottom! I'm going have nightmares. She's a Yale law professor. She's in charge of teaching the lawyers who will be the judges and the supreme court interpretators of America. Noooo.


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    Well, forget that idea I had about thinking up a really good quiestion to thwart her claims of Asian Supremiority. Not going to happen by Tuesday. I'm a go make some popcorn and watch W. on t.v. again. Gaah.


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    Originally Posted by blob
    True, don't let your child give up. But it doesn't have to happen in the shortest time possible in a continuous, punishing way. Try another method. Short term failure and making mistakes are among the best ways to learn - we should all take advantage of that!

    Mistakes are very important for the learning process. My DD is a perfectionist and comes from a mother whose a perfectionist. I really feel for her sometimes because I find myself demanding when I'm at my wit's end. I have the tendencies to go the direction the author of the posted article describes but thank goodness I haven't been that bad. I also know I don't want to be that way and it has been a learning process for myself. This said ... I'm still trying to figure out how to help DD with her perfectionism WITHOUT drawing a line in the sand. But back to mistakes: for my perfectionist daughter I find mistakes necessary and almost god sent. If I'm being honest ... mistakes for both of us is a great thing. It builds character and helps teach us that no one is perfect and perfectionism is a dream state that does not truly exist.

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    And then there's that picture of that little girl all growed up looking lovely playing in carnage hall as a teenager. Of course, like it said in the comments, um, rock stars earn more than classical musicians. Sitcom stars got houses on Cribs while Shakespearian actors starve. Which is another quiestion Wren brought up in another thread. No, it wasn't Wren. Who was it? Raddy, I think. Who brought up with the global economy on the cusp of change and technology changing the face of the job market, does it behoove our kid's more to teach them to work with their minds, or to work with technology, or to work with their hands?


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    And this is going to bug me, I know I can come up with a good quiestion to blow that chinese mother, Asian woman, Yale law professors mind. But not by Tuesday. I can't think on purpose. It just happens when it happens. And, yes, I'm trying to work on that.


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    Originally Posted by hip
    <Perhaps he would have found out that learning his job, his success and his joy.>

    I'm not sure what that sentence is supposed to say.

    You asked what would happen if you didn't stand over him and force him to learn. My suggestion is that he may have found out that his learning belongs to him. It isn't something he gets because it is imposed on him. It is one of life's greatest joys and he owns it just like he owns the success he gets as a result of it. Ultimately we have our kids for but a small fraction of their lives. Forcing learning on a kid is a pretty short term solution and not a good substitute for the child developing their internal resources.

    Originally Posted by hip
    <Seems what he's learned from the current system is that ultimately it is your responsibility not his.>

    I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion without talking with my son.

    The conclusion was drawn based on your comment in your earlier post. " If he has trouble at the beginning of a learning process, he still, at age 11, tends to give up. I don't let him. So just yesterday, we had a scene at the piano that was similar to the one in Chua's article (though shorter and less intense)." When he tends to "give up" and requires you to step in and have a "scene" that doesn't scream that he's taking personal responsibility for his own learning - quite the opposite.

    Originally Posted by hip
    Learning how to tackle a difficult task is, for a perfectionist, partly a result of force.

    How do you explain the fact that there are perfectionist kids who aren't forced and who end up taking on challenges and learning. You give yourself credit for setting up this process, but how do you know how different it might look if you'd not used force. We never used force with our perfectionist and he's self motivated and will tackle anything. How do you explain that?

    Originally Posted by hip
    Sorry to disappoint you, but because of the process I started years ago, I don't have to 'stand over him' much at all anymore.


    I'm not disappointed at all. That is different than what you said in your earlier post but it is great. It does seem to me again though that you are giving yourself quite a lot of responsibility and credit for his learning.

    Originally Posted by hip
    Near the end of the process, I was getting fed up and about to give up, when he looked up, in tears, and said, 'Don't stop -- I like it when you make me do things.' I was floored.


    Yes, we are coming to this from very, very different places. In that situation I would feel I had really failed my kid. To hear a kid say he perceives himself as so incapable that people have to threaten him to make him learn is a very sad thing to me. I know my kid isn't going to be in a shipwreck or in the Olympics tomorrow. If he needs more days at the pool to get there - that's okay, it'll happen. Pain, fear, humiliation, threats - none of those are necessary for a parent to teach a child. As a parent I want to know as my child goes through life he believes he can learn and he can tackle new situations. That's really different than believing he's the kind of person who needs to be threatened to learn and that his mom is the kind of person who so prioritizing him acquiring new skills that she's willing to threaten him.

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    I think the roots of a lot of these kinds of approaches are:

    1. Some parents forget that they don't own their kids, and

    2. There are control issues going on. This is particularly evident if Mom or Dad picks all or most extracurriculars and decides what the child has to learn, when, and how.

    What's wrong with letting a kid just goof around on a skating rink or at the piano? If SHE wants to learn crossovers, that's her decision. If kids want to develop their skills, they will. Why do people insist on imposing themselves so much and so profoundly on their kids? And then finding ways to justify it by citing self-serving examples? Please see point #1.


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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    Originally Posted by hip
    Near the end of the process, I was getting fed up and about to give up, when he looked up, in tears, and said, 'Don't stop -- I like it when you make me do things.' I was floored.


    Yes, we are coming to this from very, very different places. In that situation I would feel I had really failed my kid. To hear a kid say he perceives himself as so incapable that people have to threaten him to make him learn is a very sad thing to me.

    Yes, I don't think that sounds like a system that's working. To some extent I think strong encouragement might help a kid realize that his boundaries are not as fixed as he thought, resulting in greater self-confidence. But this little vignette certainly doesn't sound like evidence of a child who will turn out to have the "eye of the tiger". It sounds like an unhappy kid who's trying to appease his mom while she is pushing him, and/or actually does need her as a crutch-- either is not good in my opinion.


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    <We never used force with our perfectionist and he's self motivated and will tackle anything. How do you explain that?>

    First, how do you know he didn't use some kind of 'force' on himself? That's something we often have to do when faced with things we're afraid of -- taking a deep breath, steeling ourselves -- and that's part of what I had in mind when I said 'Learning how to tackle a difficult task is, for a perfectionist, partly a result of force.'

    Second, I assumed that on these forums the qualifying statement 'your mileage may vary' was understood, and that I didn't have to stipulate that what worked well for our child might not work for others.

    <It does seem to me again though that you are giving yourself quite a lot of responsibility and credit for his learning.>

    I find it strange that this seems to bother you. All I was doing is talking about what has worked for us; as my son's primary caregiver, I had the job of creating his learning environment. How he acted within that environment used to be more my 'responsibility' than his, but as he has matured, he has taken it on himself -- and is doing so confidently and happily.

    <As a parent I want to know as my child goes through life he believes he can learn and he can tackle new situations.>

    On that we agree. We just have different ways of reaching that goal.

    <his mom is the kind of person who so prioritizing him acquiring new skills that she's willing to threaten him.>

    I'm afraid you don't understand what my priority was, which is kind of surprising since it's been the main topic of this exchange. I didn't care about the skill itself, just as I didn't care about the two measures in the piano piece my son was having trouble playing yesterday. The issue was the much larger, far more important problem of crippling perfectionism.

    The way we dealt with it seems to have worked well for us, given the thoughtful, self-aware comments my son has been making lately about his own development and the way he now reacts to most challenges.

    And on a lighter note -- are there really parents out there who never 'threaten' their kids?? I mean, come on -- you can dress it up and call it 'offering multiple consequences' if you want, but 'You have a choice: you can put away your toys now or you don't get x' is a threat.

    Parents (stereotypical 'Western parents, perhaps, to return to the WSJ article) who aren't comfortable with the idea that they have more power than their children don't like thinking of it that way, but that's what it is.

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    <But this little vignette certainly doesn't sound like evidence of a child who will turn out to have the "eye of the tiger".>

    I'm not sure what the 'eye of the tiger' is - could you explain?

    <It sounds like an unhappy kid who's trying to appease his mom while she is pushing him, and/or actually does need her as a crutch-- either is not good in my opinion.>

    Or it could actually be a kid like the one I've been describing, a mostly self-directed 11 year old with a very strong internal locus of control who has learned over the six years since that day that he doesn't have to let fear of failure dominate his attitude to life, and as a result is setting and meeting his own ambitious goals.


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    Originally Posted by hip
    Originally Posted by PassthePotatoes
    We never used force with our perfectionist and he's self motivated and will tackle anything. How do you explain that?

    First, how do you know he didn't use some kind of 'force' on himself?

    I think that was the whole point: the motivation came from within. This type of motivation is very powerful.

    I've seen arguments in favor of forcing a child to do a task in order to "teach" that something seemingly too hard was doable after all. But if external pressure always has to be applied, it's entirely possible that the lesson will actually be, "I can't do anything by myself."

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    Originally Posted by hip
    <But this little vignette certainly doesn't sound like evidence of a child who will turn out to have the "eye of the tiger".>

    I'm not sure what the 'eye of the tiger' is - could you explain?

    <It sounds like an unhappy kid who's trying to appease his mom while she is pushing him, and/or actually does need her as a crutch-- either is not good in my opinion.>

    Or it could actually be a kid like the one I've been describing, a mostly self-directed 11 year old with a very strong internal locus of control who has learned over the six years since that day that he doesn't have to let fear of failure dominate his attitude to life, and as a result is setting and meeting his own ambitious goals.

    It sounds to me that the child you've been describing is one who's pushed quite intensely, to the point of tears, and who may wind up lacking drive because of retaining bad memories of being forced to practice on a task you've chosen. I don't know what a "very strong internal locus of control is"-- is that a brain? Don't we all have one of those?

    If your child won't tackle challenges by himself, I'm skeptical that your approach is going to transform him into a go-getter who pushes past his previous boundaries. Of course, you may wind up holding such sway over him even into adulthood that he strives to please you, or he may well acquire good study and practice habits that improve his academic standing at some university or other. I doubt that that's the sort of thing that will transform him into a world-beater in any field, but it may do well at helping him get a higher-paying job, of course.


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    <I don't know what a "very strong internal locus of control is">

    I may be misusing the term, but here goes: I find it useful to describe people's relationship to -- authority, for lack of a better word. My son doesn't care much about the opinions of external authority figures or standards imposed from outside (I'm guessing this is because his own standards are so much higher!). Years ago I read a post on a gifted forum describing people with this mindset as having a 'strong internal locus of control', and I thought, 'That describes my DS to a T'.

    <If your child won't tackle challenges by himself, I'm skeptical that your approach is going to transform him into a go-getter who pushes past his previous boundaries.>

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as if you haven't been reading my posts. I'll say it again: apart from minor meltdowns at the piano, which he took up 15 months ago, my son hasn't needed any input from me to deal with his fear of failure in over two years.

    <I doubt that that's the sort of thing that will transform him into a world-beater in any field>

    I'm afraid you've lost me there -- he (and we) don't have those sorts of competitive goals for him. I'm curious -- why do you see that as something to strive for?

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    Originally Posted by Val
    I've seen arguments in favor of forcing a child to do a task in order to "teach" that something seemingly too hard was doable after all. But if external pressure always has to be applied, it's entirely possible that the lesson will actually be, "I can't do anything by myself."

    This is such a powerful point, Val. And this is selfish, but the thought of threatening (with a raised level of aggravation at home) all the time to get my kid to do things just wears me flat. I can't and won't do it.

    Honestly, I can't see how anyone can go from external pressure to internal pressure all by himself just because external pressure is put on constantly. Where is the mechanism for that leap?

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    Yeah, I've read that term "internal locus of control" used on the Internet once before too. It must have come from a book. Google it and see what amazon has to say. Maybe it came from the context of a specific research project or from a job-specific vocabulary list. It's a made-up phrase, whatever it is.


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    I'm sorry for losing you there again. If some mediocre level of worldly success is what you dream for your child, you may well be on the right track, as I wrote before. I would prefer my child to come as close to his full potential as possible, and of course I also want him to be happy.

    It seems to me that your upbringing may be doing the opposite of creating someone with a strong internal locus of control, after reading this Wikipedia entry:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control

    The reasons include the crying etc., which make it seem more likely your son will avoid trying when the pressure's off; and the fact that he apparently feels that he needs you to push him when he faces a tough obstacle. I just don't see how that's going to translate into indomitable will to overcome, when mommy's not around any more.

    ETA: Val and blob said it better. Mechanism for the leap.



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    "Internal locus of control" means that a person sees themselves as both being responsible for what happens to them and having power over it, and "external locus of control" means that they view outside forces (luck, fate,'talent', family connections, other people) as having greater power and agency than they do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control

    Edit: I think others must have posted this link soon after I started this reply. Didn't mean to add little or nothing to the discussion.

    To remedy that defect, I'll expand a bit. I think (and this thought is supported by quite a bit of research) that a child developing a strong internal locus of control is not really dependent on whether a parent "pushes" or doesn't "push", but rather on how parents, teachers, and other family members respond to success and failure, and what they attribute these to. A child who hears "You did really well. It is clear that you worked really hard." is far more likely to feel that they were in control of the outcome than one who hears "You did really well. You must be smart." or "You did really well. I bet you're the teacher's favorite." A child who hears "You didn't do so well, but you didn't really work very hard. Next time, start practicing sooner, and I'm sure you'll do better." gets very different messages about their responsibility, power, and control than one who hears "You didn't do so well. I guess you just don't have a talent for ________. " or "You didn't do so well. I guess it wasn't your lucky day."

    A strong internal locus of control is associated with success and resiliency. To the extent that Asian parents communicate that their children's success in within their control, they are helping them to develop that internal locus of control. But when the pushing is taken to an extreme, when failure is never an option, something very interesting, and, IMO, more than a little sad, happens: the children don't know when to quit, don't know how to deal with failure, and have a hard time recognizing when it is appropriate to stop trying. I can't find the link right now, but I know there was a study done that compared high-performing students from Asia with high-performing American students, and presented both groups with a set of very difficult math challenges to solve. For some of the problems, in fact, no solution was possible. Both groups of students worked diligently, but the American students were able to recognize that no solution was possible to some of the problems much earlier than the Asian students, many of whom refused to stop working even when it should have been clear that all reasonable approaches to the problems had been exhausted. There is such a thing as having too strong an internal locus of control.

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    Re 'mechanism for the leap':

    Judging by my son's reaction to success, and the fact that he's now great at challenging himself (except at the piano!), I'd say the 'mechanism' comes from his having realized two things:

    1) 'Hey, once I get past the initial paralyzing fear, I can actually do x!'

    (I think that's where the intense joy comes from, the beaming smile he gets on his face when he realizes he's mastered something he thought was impossible.)

    and

    2) 'I don't need anybody else to make me make that leap -- I can do it myself!'

    It took a while, but he does seem to have realized a few years ago that he had it in him to push himself -- he didn't need Mom to do it anymore. The lingering doubts at the piano (*much* more mildly expressed than his old fears) are all that remains.

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    <If some mediocre level of worldly success is what you dream for your child, you may well be on the right track, as I wrote before. I would prefer my child to come as close to his full potential as possible, and of course I also want him to be happy.>

    Again, I'm not sure what the reference to 'worldly success' is about (is 'eye of the tiger' related?). Making lots of money? Winning lots of awards? Not a priority here.

    As I said to 'Passthepotatoes', I think our goals are similar: to help our kids use their potential, and to help them be happy. My son's perfectionism used to stand in the way of both; it no longer does.

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    Well outside forces do have greater power than we do. All we can control is our own choices. But in the end we must adjust. And all those things you list are very powerful.


    Well, someone in the NY Times comment section came up questioning her assertation that high pressure parents produce happier children, stating that japan has that same philosophy and According th Who, has the world's largest suicide rate in this new failed economy. http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/world/07/08/10/japan-pm-targets-high-suicide-rate.
    But her book isn't about failed unemployed middle aged Japanese men who didn't make it. It's about two beautiful American girls of Chinese decent who played at Carnagee hall already in their young lives. I really don't like it that she's teaching American Law when she so blatantly and publicly prefers the Chinese culture. That bothers me. But I'm not the one in locus of control.


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    Etaotoh: that's putting togeather two statitistics and assuming the numbers show cause and effect. False thinking. Maybe it's because their divorce rates are lower and more men there take care of their family, their kid's, and even their elders. Then the bad economy and the lack of jobs would affect them worse. And not just because their mommy raised them wrong.


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    On the subject of being the mean mommy, my boy's outgrowing pullups and overflowing them at night. I insisted on "no drinking anything after 6". Being I'm a weak woman I relented and now I have to go wash laundry at quarter to midnight. I believe in "involved parenting" pushing, guiding, directing sometimes and with the right conditions and motivation. Like "you will dress yourself because i have to get dressed, get your sister ready, and load the car," and for other such selfish reasons. Um, I kind of think he should have the locus of control of his body always, theoretically. I shop for groceries. He can raid the fridge at any time, except when I'm cooking. (That makes me mad.) So is there anything to do for someone who's not night-trained and overflows , mh hmm. Besides denying drinks at night?


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    "Depends" might have greater capacity than pull-ups, and making him do the laundry when he has an accident might make him see the light about not drinking late. Since he decided that he wanted to drink late, I think it is only fair that he get to own the natural result. YMMV.

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    Way back when, my oldest was a bed-wetter, we kept extra clean sheets and towels in her room and she learned to get up and handle it when it occurred, then wash the sheets the next day. We initially tried rewards etc but ultimately we learned that her muscles just weren't developed enough and being a deep sleeper it was beyond her control. She stopped once the muscles developed (I think 10ish?). My youngest potty trained herself in a day at 18 months and never ever wet the bed. Kids just develop differently.

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    Originally Posted by La Texican
    So is there anything to do for someone who's not night-trained and overflows , mh hmm. Besides denying drinks at night?
    Yes - and btw, denying drinks at night may not work, and could even backfire. (My DS suffered a UTI a few months back, and I wonder whether his (own) reluctance to drink at supper and later for this reason contributed.) I don't know what the equivalent is in the US, but in the UK, ERIC is a good source of both information and supplies. We bought a waterproof sleeping bag liner (it's plasticy on the outside, but cottony on the inside); DS sleeps inside that in his bed, and then if he does have an accident it's only that and his clothing that's wet. If yours has frequent accidents you might want to get two! We also got a bedwetting alarm for DS and it seems to be helping, although until the child's body is developed enough (AIUI one important thing is an anti-diuretic hormone that stops urine production at night, but not in young children, and whose levels ramp up at different ages in different children) that may just be frustrating. Mainstream advice seems to be to just wait, unless the child is over 7 or so. Bedwetting is a lot more common than people think - it's just not talked about!


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    A note to La Texican. The Japanese suicide rate may have something to do with the severe 10+ year recession over there. They had a serious bank problem (sound familiar) and Japan never reoovered to the boom 80s, competition from Korea, now Vietnam, China, Inda.

    Japan is the size of CA and has 100 million people. You work hard, you get educated, and then suddenly the opportunities dry up. Not coming back. Doesn't mean you have some improvements in the economy but they won't be a leader for a long time. Something people do not expect to happen here. But I do. CNBC just interviewed a company that got lean after 2008. They are now back to 2008 revenue numbers with 10% less people and the CEO said that he would have to do muliples better before they hired back to 2008 levels. So the economy returns, the jobs don't.

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    Originally Posted by hip
    Parents (stereotypical 'Western parents, perhaps, to return to the WSJ article) who aren't comfortable with the idea that they have more power than their children don't like thinking of it that way, but that's what it is.

    Of course we have more power than our kids. We drive the car. We buy the food. We have a lifetime of experience and knowledge our kids don't have. At least at first we are much bigger than our kids and on it goes.

    The fact that we have more power is precisely why we should have discretion about how to use it and precisely why we should be sensitive to the condition in which our motivation or will is acting as a substitute for the child developing internal resources.

    One question to ponder - what do you think would have happened if you hadn't threatened and forced your son to put his face in the pool that day. Do you think he wouldn't have learned to do so for another week, for a month, for a year, never? Do you believe he would be "crippled" without you?

    I can think of quite a few gifted kids I know who have taken their time with tasks. They may prefer to watch for a very long period of time and wait until the day they are ready to do the activity well with little stress. The parent who forces the child may conclude "aha, if not for me they would never do it" but of course we don't know that it is true. The child may well have done it the next day and felt even prouder of their accomplishment knowing they owned it entirely.

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    Originally Posted by Nik
    Way back when, my oldest was a bed-wetter, we kept extra clean sheets and towels in her room and she learned to get up and handle it when it occurred, then wash the sheets the next day. .

    It was a million years ago here, but someone suggested to me that we put on the bed sheet, rubber mat, sheet. So, if the child had an accident he could remove the sheet and mat, change pants and go back to bed. It also helps some kids to get a late night wake up - 11 pm - walk to the bathroom and back to bed.

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    <what do you think would have happened if you hadn't threatened and forced your son to put his face in the pool that day.>

    Sorry for quoting myself, but this is the answer in a nutshell -- IMO the turnaround that I describe below would not have happened for years, and his fears would have interfered in a profound way with both his happiness and his developing ability to use his potential (to crib two important child-raising goals from another poster):

    Originally Posted by hip
    Re 'mechanism for the leap':

    Judging by my son's reaction to success, and the fact that he's now great at challenging himself (except at the piano!), I'd say the 'mechanism' comes from his having realized two things:

    1) 'Hey, once I get past the initial paralyzing fear, I can actually do x!'

    (I think that's where the intense joy comes from, the beaming smile he gets on his face when he realizes he's mastered something he thought was impossible.)

    and

    2) 'I don't need anybody else to make me make that leap -- I can do it myself!'

    It took a while, but he does seem to have realized a few years ago that he had it in him to push himself -- he didn't need Mom to do it anymore. The lingering doubts at the piano (*much* more mildly expressed than his old fears) are all that remains.


    And about the issue of parental power: ds, whom I quote with his permission, had a great reaction when I mentioned it while telling him about this thread -- 'That's why parents raise children, and not the other way around!' Simplistic, I grant you, but funny, too.

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    So wren, that's back to Raddy's quiestion several months ago about telling the kid's there's value in taking loans for a secondary education. For what? Like literrally, what jobs will be available when the dust settles. I've seen bloggers saying we have the technology to be even more automated right now but we're not socially and economically ready for 10 hour work weeks.
    Research ability is always a good skill in any environment. That's just good study skills. Socializing is a good habit. How else can we prepare kid's for success when the future's still up in the air?
    Put on our compassion hats because it's going to get dark before the dawn? Right now we could use observant historians. What kind of living is that? That ain't going to pay the bills to raise my grandkids. (grandkids. lol. One of my kid's is 3 years, the other is 3 months.). So if the jobs don't come back I'm a little worried about crime, a little worried that we might stricter laws, is there really a lot of changes right now, or is it that I'm just now as a mother becoming interested in the news. Has the world always been this chaotic?


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    Lol, it should be the other way around. Send the kid's to work now while they have too much energy and send the parents to sit still all day in school all day after they've settled down.


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    Originally Posted by hip
    Sorry for quoting myself, but this is the answer in a nutshell -- IMO the turnaround that I describe below would not have happened for years, and his fears would have interfered in a profound way with both his happiness and his developing ability to use his potential (to crib two important child-raising goals from another poster):

    How do you explain how so many perfectionist children make progress when they aren't pushed, forced and threatened? I've heard so many versions of that pool story where it was resolved without threats and force. The kid who watched every day of the summer and swam all the way across the pool the first time, the kid who would have nothing to do with it at give but was eager to be on the swim team at six, etc.

    No pushing, threats or cajoling here AND also no need to stand over a 11 year old and have a scene about music practice. And, no need to cajole or push through any other sort of new experience because the child would never think it was the parents' job to do so. Any explanation for how that could happen if this force and pushing is required?


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    Again, sorry to quote, but maybe you didn't see it the first time.

    <I assumed that on these forums the qualifying statement 'your mileage may vary' was understood, and that I didn't have to stipulate that what worked well for our child might not work for others.>

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    Originally Posted by Nik
    Way back when, my oldest was a bed-wetter, we kept extra clean sheets and towels in her room and she learned to get up and handle it when it occurred, then wash the sheets the next day. .

    It was a million years ago here, but someone suggested to me that we put on the bed sheet, rubber mat, sheet. So, if the child had an accident he could remove the sheet and mat, change pants and go back to bed. It also helps some kids to get a late night wake up - 11 pm - walk to the bathroom and back to bed.


    Yes, we used the rubber mat with the soft cotton on both sides, we had 2 of them so the mattress never got ruined in the event of 2 accidents in one night. We also tried the midnight wake up and trip to the potty which worked sort of but she was such a heavy sleeper she was just going along with it in a sleepwalking state so it never became a habit as we had hoped. Ultimately the issue went away when the muscles developed enough to keep her through the night.

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    Originally Posted by hip
    My son's perfectionism used to stand in the way of both; it no longer does.

    It doesn't sound like that's accurate to me. Your son's perfectionism, and your parenting style, seem to have resulted in a situation where your son feels the need to be pushed by you. (I'm struggling to eschew references to possible culture, use of idioms, etc. here to keep us sufficiently on the same wavelength to communicate in English. How'd I do?)


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    Originally Posted by Iucounu
    It doesn't sound like that's accurate to me. Your son's perfectionism, and your parenting style, seem to have resulted in a situation where your son feels the need to be pushed by you.

    (I'm struggling to eschew references to possible culture, use of idioms, etc. here to keep us sufficiently on the same wavelength to communicate in English. How'd I do?)


    I'm getting a little tired of quoting earlier posts, so I'll try, one more time, to say what seems to keep getting ignored:

    According to all the adults who know him well, ds (or 'OVC', as he referred to himself after hearing about this thread yesterday: 'oppressed victim child') has

    way fewer

    much less intense

    episodes of panic at the thought of failure than he used to years ago.


    According to 'OVC' himself and those same adults, he needs

    much less pushing, from me or anybody else,

    than he used to years ago.



    You did fine, but 'possible culture'? Again, way too worldly for me, I guess!

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