Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment new. test results just in. now what? (x-posted)

Hi,

My son is 8, in third grade in a charter school he's attending for the first time this year. At his previous public school he did go to the next grade level in math for two years but still complained that it was too easy and not very interesting. We ended up homeschooling him and his brothers and sister in the spring, and he did math with his 4th grade math loving but not highly gifted brother and found that to slow.

At his new school he was given the WJIII test and the KABC-2 test. The results arrived today, and my husband and I have a meeting with the school next week to discuss.

I need help knowing exactly what to ask for, and advice on dealing with resistance from the classroom teacher. My son's class is a 3-4 class as is the class next door. The third graders from the class next door come in for math and the 4th graders switch out, but Ds' teacher has not let him move with the 4th graders even though he has already completed the same 3rd grade curriculum. In our so-far limited e-mailed conversations about this she has suggested that DS needs to explain his work better, needs to be neater and needs to follow her direction more closely .

His scores on the WJ III
Broad Reading: 135
Broad Math: 150
Basic reading: 128
Reading Comp: 137
Math Calc: 145
Math reasoning: 154
Basic Writing: 124
Academic Skills: 136
Academic Apps: 139
Academic Knowledge: 140

His scores range from 96 to 99.9 on the KABC-2


I know a little about what this all means form the grade level provided on the form and the brief narratives. We've known DS was capable well above his grade level, and the tests show this. Now it seems asking for him to be moved the 4th grade for math seems a bit silly, and that we really should be asking for an accelerated math program, etc.

Despite the results, DS has a lot to learn in writing and spelling and actually doesn't enjoy writing at all. I think in terms of that kind of work this classroom is good for him, and his teacher is offering him reasonably challenging work.

Socially and emotionally DS is a pretty happy and stable guy who suffers from occasional bouts of frustration. He�s even tempered, funny, friendly, a little shy, likable and a decent athlete.

If anyone has been kind and patient enough to read this far, can you advise? Most specifically I need advice about how to best advocate for my child. Any other general advice would be appreciated.

Thank you.

My son has scores just like this. Why bother trying to grade skip? Keep stimulating him. Does your school have a gifted program? Ours starts in 4th grade- my son is in 2nd grade. He's bored but not catatonic.
So much of success in life is how happy you are and how well you interact with others, esp. for a job. So many kids who grade-skip long-term have some social issues. I always wonder, wouldn't you have been better off being the smartest (and most well-adjusted) kid in your class, rather than being bright, not the smartest, and socially a misfit when you grade skip.

My son is a well-adjusted, happy, athletic child in a large and loving family. He gets along with his siblings, friends, and older family members. He's respectful and fun to be around. We have no tv and limit computer use and have a great home library so he has plenty of opportunities to read and pursue his interests. He plays piano, studies a foreign language (Russian--we live abroad for 4 years and he did learn to read in Russian so we are doing what we can to keep that going), and competes in swimming--so I think I can say we keep him engaged and challenged at home.

The problem is the 7 hours he spends in school. For him, school can sometimes be fun (he likes recess, gym and generally paling around) and interesting (he's not a gifted writer and his teacher is a great writing instructor so he's learning something there.) but for most of the academic time he is bored out of his gourd.

I don't actually want to accelerate him to another grade--we went around that tree in first grade and we resisted. In both first and second grade he went to the next grade for math. Now that he is in third grade in a new school, he is going through third grade math again, which was a slog the first time around. The teacher is insisting she can differentiate but so far 1/5 of the way into the school year she hasn't.

Before I received these results, I was trying to push to get him into the fourth grade math class but I no longer see the point. He needs something else entirely. Frankly, I don't think it is too much to expect that if he is going to spend 7 hours a day in school he might learn something new in literature, science, math and social studies.

I'm quoting from the assessment report here:

Mathematical Reasoning: GLE: 11.3 "Mathematical Reasoning tasks below the grade level 8.1 would be quite easy for him and above 15.0 would be too difficult."

Academic Knowledge: GLE: 9.0 "When compared to others in his grade, Txx will find some difficulty with tasks requiring knowledge in the sciences, history, geography, government, economics, art, music and literature above a grade level of 11.9"

This is why I am worried. I know on this board most parents have read similar or more extreme reports about their kids. So I came here hoping to hear from people who have BTDT. I hate to sound so defensive, but I have to say I was surprised to read the post above on a board like this.

I am reminded of my conversation with our community's new school superintendent who told me my son needed to focus on social skills (she had never met my son or heard of him--this was her take on gifted kids in general) being on time and getting some physical activity in the school day. Really? The school has him for 7 hours 5 days a week. Can they please teach him some math?

Good Luck Suzie,
Remember that it may be best to consider this meeting as a first step. I tend to find the WJIII grade equavalents a little murky. Be prepared that the school won't accept them at face value (and neither should you) - going to an online curriculum for a test drive, such as Aleks.com to see how your kiddo actually does on 6th grade math will tell you alot about what you need to ask for.

I think that if writing is working well, and she's moved the reading level up, then a skip might be better kept on the back burner as an option. I won't deny that sometimes a needed skip is best taken when there is a severe teacher problem that you want to get out of gracefully. A terrific teacher is such a gift. Average teachers are still a gift IF you can get your child into a classroom where the readiness of the child matches the readiness level of the other children in the room.

I think of it this way. The teacher is the one to talk to about issues within the classroom. The Principle is the one to talk to when the solution lies beyond the single classroom. Hopefully you will get the Princ on your side and be able to hand pick future teachers. This can make all the difference.

Most schools believe that their 3rd grade Math is equivalent to everyone else's 5th grade math. So be prepared to ask them how they would suggest evaluating where to first try him in math. They will likely say 'end of year tests' - at this point remember to negotiate that 80% means that the next highest end of year test should be given. Afterall, how many kids are promoted to the next year with 80% or less? You are allowed to ask this question. In fact, it's usually useful to ask the sort of question that allows the participants to discover the holes in their logic as they are answering you, especially compared to pointing out holes in their logic. Logic isn't universally revered. Metaphores go a lot farther. Folk tales...anything to create an emotion of 'do it my way and it'll all be ok."

My favorite book for practicing my negotiation skills is "getting to Yes' by Fisher and Ury.

Best wishes, take notes, remind yourself that everyone wants whats best for your child. Print out what you like from here and keep it where you can refer to it.

It's important to write a follow up email while it is all fresh in your mind about who agreed to what.. what the options are...what needs to be found out.

We'll be waiting here with a dry towel and cold compresses. And virtual beverages of your choosing.

Grinity

Some kids just don't have the energy to be bored in school all day and then be 'stimulated' afterschool. I'm glad your kids does, and hope that continues.

I agree that happiness is very important, but staying with agemates isn't the way to happiness for many gifted kids. Homeschooling is the way for some, skips and subject accelerations are the ways for others. So much depends on the kid's personality and the family circumstances.

What gave you this idea? I wanna move to where you live and there are lots of gradeskipped kids to compare to. Lots of people who need grade skips have social issues, partially because we live in a world where so many people think that they have all the answers. Partially because for some kids the agemates just don't have enough common ground to practice social skills on. Partially because of the OverExcitabilities that come along with high IQ for some kids. Partially because the kids who get single gradeskips need so much more than that. Partially because once a kid is gradeskipped we tend to think that every negative thing that ever happens to them is related to the skip. More likely the hard things are related to the unusally high IQ or asynchronous development, or some 2e type issues, or just that into every life 'a little rain must fall.'

What is so great about being the smartest kid in the class? I'd much rather my child be in a classroom where everyone has to work hard and everyone has learning success. I'd like my kid to define himself in some other way than 'the smartest.' What about the kids who can skip and still are the smartest kid in the class? What about college when the kid who has always been the smartest is suddenly having to rely on her work ethic - opps sorry - your child didn't get any experience that required work ethic?

Lots of 2E kids just naturally develop work ethic merely to survive, but that is an advantage they have over many HG and PG kids. I don't actually care what size my shoe is, as long as if fits my foot. I also don't care what the grade number on the door outside the classroom is, as long as my kid has an opportunity to learn inside that classroom. Would I prefer a all day long gifted classroom where my son would learn all day long with kids his own age and readiness level and teachers who understood how ADD and PG affect a kid? Yes that would be my first choice over a grade skip.

I hope that helps,
Grinity

It probably does depend what your school situation is.
We are fortunate to be in a very good, well-funded public school, which is rare. The gifted program here starts in 4th grade and is full-time. Through that, my son will do honors Geometry in 8th grade, then do two years of AP calculus in high school (AB, then BC).
He tested into 5th grade math in 1st grade; his reading is 2 grade levels ahead. They feel he could easily handle a grade skip. If we grade-accelerate him for math, sure, he could do college math at the local university in h.s., but I suspect that would be a problem with scheduling his classes.
I was HG and grade-skipped. Academically, it was easy, but socially, being the youngest/shortest in h.s was hard. Going through puberty later, driving later, was hard.
I graduated with honors in a science major from Northwestern and honors from Harvard Medical School. It took me a long time to realize that there is so much more life than simply being the best academically. Having good social skills is very, very important in the work world.
My son is hearing impaired and has some learning disabilities related to that. He wears a hearing aid. He has a very good work ethic, to overcome those, and I suspect he will do very well.
In college, there were a few HG people who had radically grade accelerated. They tended to be extremely freaky and do very poorly in jobs/getting jobs. There were very few like that at Harvard Med- it was just too competitive a school to accept someone who was just 2E and didn't have the whole package.
I think many kids who grade accelerate may miss out on the "whole social package."

I think before generalizing about kids who are accelerated, it's important to understand what actual research shows. In A Nation Deceived, there were only minor social setbacks acknowledge by kids who were grade accelerated. There is no way to know if they would have had social issues no matter what, simply by being very advanced and feeling disconnected from agemates.

My own son is accelerated one year based on a very high Iowa Acceleration Scale score. With his agemates, he was sad, detached and had a hard time making friends. They did not understand him, didn't read the books he read, play the games he played or connect with him.

In his "new" grade, he has good friends, plays well with others and actually gets in trouble sometimes for talking in class. (We quietly applaud this when he's not listening!) He is an inch taller than the next tallest kid in his class and is often mistaken for kids two or three years older than him.

If it weren't for the birthday chart on the wall, nobody would know he was a year to a year and a half younger than everyone else in class.

I personally know 4 people with kids that are currently accelerated and several with kids who have now graduated college. While none of them say middle school was easy, none of them would change a thing about being skipped.

And the child.
And the teachers.
And the parents.

"Whole Social Package?"
I had the whole social package... to the nth degree. Didn't help me much, though, after coasting through school (enjoying all the social stuff... wheeeee...), because when I showed up in college I was actually expected to apply myself. I never figured out until much later that it was the total lack of challenge in school that left me so ill-prepared for college.

-- -- --

We're in a situation for our son where grade-skips have been the only alternative. Our idiot state is practically BK, so the GATE program consists of a letter offering a mixture of kudos and condolences. "Yay he's smart, Boo there's no money."

He's now 9 and in 6th grade after his second skip. This will be the first full year where he has to actually apply himself to get those A grades. The first 4.5 years of rolling out of bed knowing all the answers were cruel in that they gave him a false sense of accomplishment... along with absolutely no appreciation for facing & overcoming a challenge (other than learning to tie his shoes).

Trust me, nary a day passes that I don't fret over the long-term consequences of the choices we've made. But just five minutes in a 4th grade classroom makes it painfully obvious that he's in the right situation. (He'd actually be in 3rd grade in many states considering his fall birthday.)

I'm the last person to suggest that grade-skips are the perfect solution. 'cause they're not. But I'll bet a dozen donuts that the grade-skipped freaky-deakies you encountered in college were anomalies, and that grade-skips saved/helped far more people than you realize. (And just out of curiosity, were there really no freaky people in college who weren't grade-skipped?)

-- -- --

It's been awhile since I've seen anyone mention "A Nation Deceived," which I think is excellent reading for people contemplating grade-skips or other methods of accommodation.

"A Nation Deceived"
http://www.nationdeceived.org/

There's an executive summary for the proverbial wetting of the feet: (http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/Executive_Summary.aspx), and then the reader can plow into the full report for all the gory details.

And lastly, there's the wonderful article, "What a Child Doesn't Learn."
Opening quote:
The full article is available here:
http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430

Hi Dandy,
We did one grade skip and this year pull out for higher math.
I worry all the time if we did the right thing and it was just one full year skip.
This time of year is the hardest because the last child turns 8 and he will not be 8 for almost 3 months. So it is not horrible, but always he gets upset.
He told me over the weekend he doesn't think he fits in.

I had to tell him people are diff in a lot of ways not just age etc. and hope it gets through.

Amen. At this point, my feeling on DD's skip is "all of the other options available to us would have been worse."

It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the skip-decision.

I've been very much hoping that one skip would be enough, because I'd send a just-turned-17yo across the country to college without hesitation, but a just-turned-16yo not so much. And then I hear DD say things like "I probably won't be a scientist when I grow up, because you don't learn much science in 3rd grade," or "I'm pretty far ahead of my class in math," or see her pick out books at the book fair based on how thick they are, because otherwise they'll be finished too quickly.