Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Shies away from a challenge. How much to push?

Hi,

We have always known that dd4.5 was pretty adept at shying away from a challenge - in fact it was noted by the psychologist who tested her as a potential issue long term.

While there are many examples of this, I'll mention the two that were the biggest issues yesterday because they're fresh in my mind. Dd is having a trial at school next week to see if she can hold her own with this year's kindergarteners and if so she'll start in first grade next year instead of kindergarten. She has to wear runners to school and she was keen to try laces. Within 2 attempted she had tying her laces down. Not quickly or neatly, but enough to be able to do it if she concentrates. She gave them a go for a week and then stopped wearing them. Now she doesn't want to wear them unless I will tie them because 'they're too hard to do up'.

As the second example, dd has just been reading Charlie and the Chocolate Factory at bed time. She is a reluctant reader by day, but was really enjoying sharing the bedtime reading with us - she would read a page then dh or I would. She was reading fluently and questions from us about what was happening indicated she understood what she was reading (I believe it's grade 4 or 5 level book). She has her own reading time after we read at bedtime, but she has admitted she doesn't read, only looks through books during that time and that she just uses that time to stay up later (she said that herself). I understand her not wanting to read something like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory on her own (though she could without an issue, but I can imagine it could be daunting looking at all those words in tiny print for pages and pages on your own, when you're little). So I have suggested some of the easier books she enjoys (Felicity Wishes, Rainbow Fairies, Fairy Realm), which she can read with out issue. But again she won't, because she says it's too hard (I have seen her read these easily).

My issue is how much to push with these kinds of things? These are just two of many examples, all of which I am sure are related to her perfectionism and wanting to make sure she can do something easily and/or perfectly before she'll do it at all.

In the past have always been reluctant to push with reading (and most things really), because she was so little and she didn't 'need' to be able to do them. Now I sometimes feel like I am forcing her (not with the reading, however I have refused to tie her shoe laces - I know she can do it and if I do it, history has suggests that I'll still be tying her shoes as she heads off to high school!). When dd was tested the psych said she found dd constantly trying to manipulate the situation to get help (regardless of whether she needed it or not) and this is something we see in day to day life on a regular basis.

Pushing back (for example with the shoe laces) can result in an hour long stand off where dd will flump around furiously while I just get on with my day. I don't give in to these (I can be stubborn like that), but I'm not sure if that's helpful or not either. I tend to be on my own on this one too, because while we've talked about it a lot, dh is inclined to do whatever dd asks (he doesn't do this deliberately - he just adores her and loves helping her). So I am constantly the bad guy. But I am prepared to be that to a certain extent if it means I can help her be confident and independent. I just don't want to go too far the other way.

At this stage we've had a lot of success in dealing with some aspects of her perfectionism buy talking about practice and giving examples of when she has gotten better and better at something through practice; we try to role model dealing constructively with mistakes and we talk about how mistakes can end up as a positive. She's done really well in some areas (she no longer flings her drawings or writing to the floor - she'll fix things or ignore them and so on). I would never leave her without help if she needed it - I always just ask that she give something a try and if she's given it a real go and can't do it, I'm more than happy to help. Because I am careful not to push anything unless I feel pretty confident she can do it, she invariably can do it on her own and she's so proud of herself when she does! But gee it takes a lot of effort to get her to do it.

She is only 4.5, but I can see this being a long term pattern if we don't address it. Any thoughts?

You may get a really different response from some of the parents of younger kids...but here's my reaction as the parent of a teenager. Four is very young. I've never met a parent of a teenager who wishes they'd spent more time engaged in standoffs over who would tie sneakers. And, I've spoken with many who look back and wish instead of struggling that they'd cheerfully snuggled up, said a silly rhyme and tied the shoes. Childhood is very short.

Developmental readiness is complex. It is very possible for a child to be capable of something mentally or physically but to not be ready for it emotionally. That's part of asynchrony. Any amount of pushing, even gentle, can cause kids to buckle down even further with trying new things. She may well be thinking now that she regrets every tying the shoes in the first place and may be hesitant to try the next thing if she's going to be expected to fully take over the job.

My suggestion would be to as much as you can try to allow her to have some privacy and space with her learning. For some kids who are perfectionists even the slightest hint that it matters a lot to their parent(s) feels like a HUGE amount of pressure. Obviously you aren't saying to her "you are being lazy by not reading during your independent time at night; you are a failure for not doing so; you are disappointing me." However, even just a generally nice suggestion or question about how she's spending her time may feel to her like you've said all those things.

My suggestion would be to at all times remain confident, cheerful and trust her learning process. There is nothing wrong with enjoying looking at pictures. There are adults (artists, art historians, etc.) who devote much of their attention to this kind of close observation. There are writers who are inspired to create their own stories by looking at pictures. It is a wonderful thing that she enjoys this close observation and that she's found a peaceful wind down activity before bed. If you think about it, most of us don't work on newly emerging challenging skills right before bed. I can't imagine taking on something I was just learning right before I went to sleep. My reaction to the comment about looking at pictures might be "You have so many books with great pictures. I think my favorites are the Jan Brett books, I love the way she draws animals, do you have any favorites?"

Ultimately your goal is that she's a motivated and independent learner. The best way to get to that goal is express confidence and comfort in the way she's approaching things. More space and less adult concern will give her the confidence she can try new things without fearing she will be expected to perform.

My kids are very self motivated. I talk about doing work that feels right to them and learning by mistakes.

Let them pour milk at the table and if they spill - no big deal. Let them fix their mistake and clean it up. There is lots of mileage in this. I frequently talk to them about enjoying the proud feeling from doing well.

I would suggest avoiding the power struggles. This one is still hard for me. My son would get my daughter to go anywhere when she was little with a marching parade song. Talking in a fun way can be motivational. Get some parenting books for inspiration on cooperation.

I hope this helps you. good luck.

My DS has been able to to dress himself since he was 2 but at 6 he often refuses to do it without help from me. Why? Because he enjoys the connection. He learns better if I sit with him while he works on some things, and better on his own on others. I do find it frustrating at times but we've reached a point where I don't really do things for him any more, I'm just present with him. We are able to strike deals where I'll 'help' (be) with him for a little while and then get on and do my own thing. This is pretty important considering we homeschool and I have a life of my own!

IMHO that depends hugely on temperament. Mine does best with huge amounts of coddling and praise, and a good incentive structure. Any amount of parental pushing results in misery all around. And I suspect mine is at least somewhat temperamentally like yours - when mine was 4.5, I finally asked her when she was going to stop calling for me to help her on the toilet, and she suggested "maybe when I'm 6." (I think it was not quite that long. But nearly.)

IMHO, a 4.5yo who can read chapter books (even Rainbow Fairies) when she chooses and can manage to tie her own shoes after two attempts when she chooses is not a kid who shies away from a challenge. She just chooses her own challenges, and has figured out how to get her needs met in other areas with maximal efficiency, by getting someone else to do them for her.

In our house, "it's too hard" nearly never means that. It usually means "I don't want to do it, nor do I want to argue with you over doing it."

I have a 9 and a 6 year old, but I agree with passthepotatoes response wholeheartedly! This mind set really led to us homeschooling because my kids are the reluctant, asynchronous type. I've decided presenting my kids with challenges is a marathon and not a race. I can see some positive changes in both my kids with each year. My 9 year old has suddenly become extremely self motivated in a number of things!

Don't worry - you have lots of time! Enjoy your little girl!

Here's my view for the younger set - it depends!!! DS 4.5 can be incredibly stubborn, particularly if he knows that we want him to do it, like with a milestone like wearing underwear. Everyone told us, oh he'll do it when he's ready. Well he could have done it well before the Mexican standoff at 3.5 but chose not to until we took the pull ups away, lots of people thought it was mean but he was perfectly capable of realizing that it was easier to pee and poop in his pants. We have had success with the when do you want to do it, in May I was asking him when he would take care of everything in the bathroom (wiping, sorry for all the bathroom examples) and he said for camp this summer. That was fine, when camp came and he asked me to do it, I reminded him, and he went and did it. I agree about the enjoying their childhood aspects that the OP with older kids mention that being said, my focus is when it is a power struggle rather than a developmental or emotional thing. DS likes to have control over when he gives up doing things. But if we would have allowed him to continue to say I won't write or I won't color or i can't do it we never would have gotten to the bottom of his fine motor issues which I have posted about elsewhere. As for reading, DS can read and comprehend at the 6th grade level and reads on his own but adores being read to, especially when it has new vocabulary so he can see and heat the words. We do the I'll read some, you read some and that works but sometimes he will say no. I also agree with the OP about timing, we do bath, books and bed, no free time. Instead he gets up in the morning and will often read by himself then. He's a morning guy though. With the shoes, i agree it really sounds like she is interested in mastering it and then doesn't want to do it anymore once she knows she can because it does take longer. Maybe instead of the standoff over who does it, maybe just give her two pairs of shoes laces or Velcro and tell her she chooses which to put on. With my DS and his fine motor I have to build in time for him to do his buttons and socks and sometimes I help and adjust but I have had to realize my doing it was allowing him to avoid doing something hard, it doesn't seem to be the case with yours. I guess what I would ask is what is your goal, did you want her in laces ups, or just to stick with it? With reading, why do you want her reading on her own at that time? If you want her just reading more, do the, leave a new book lying around trick, see what she does. Does she immediately ask you to read it, tell her you can't right now and see what she does. If she looks at the pixs but waits to read it then maybe she does need the reading together. But if she reads it on her own then you know it's something about the bedtime or the dynamic. My focus would be on teasing out is it about the tasks or manipulating you. When it's about the manipulation I focus on correcting it, when it's about learning to do something I take a much different approach as teacher/cheerleader.

DeHe

Hi all,

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. They really got me thinking and I have realised there are a few elements to this.

The first is that reading your comments I suspect I have placed too much emphasis on the being independent aspect. On reflection there are a number of reasons for this, but one of them was that the ed psych singled this out as an issue she had noticed and she felt would have an impact on dd actually being able to make the most of her abilities. This really rang true for dh and I as we have seen her not try things since she was very tiny. We've managed to move past the not trying things (through the cheerleading/teacher/it not mattering if you fail approach) and now I guess I felt that in a number of instances if she can do something (unless there was a reason like being sick or tired or out of sorts in general) she should (within reason - I don't mean that I expect her to do everything she can just because she can, just that if it is more practical for her to do it than me, say if I'm in the middle of something else, and she can - then she should). However I really hadn't consider emotional asynchrony from the perspective of doing practical tasks and that makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand there is also real element of manipulation in this instance I feel. It is very, very hard to give dd space for learning (I love that as a description btw). She is a kid that needs company every moment of the day and that company has to be involved company. And I give it to her in the main - so I don't think it is a matter of not having a connection (more of needing never ending connection!) However it is not enough to sit with her while she is drawing or chat to her while she is playing. She is insistent that the involvement include direct participating with whatever she is doing and preferably me doing anything that is a challenge. If I am busy and/or I let her know that I need some time for myself she will often sit and wait until I am done - even if I have set her up and then removed myself. For a while she was playing really well on her own, but is now back to the sitting it out. With the bed time reading, she will happily read any level of book to us at bedtime after we have read if we will stay (and will extend this out and out and out if we let her). But she will just flick through books if we don't. She mostly she flicks through chapter books, but doesn't read them. If I felt that she was using the time to look at pictures I would absolutely agree that that is worth while, however I don't think it is anything other than wanting to staying up longer - which of course means seeing more of us as we come back to tuck her in (aside from this element of it, I have no issues with her preferring to be read to - and I love reading to her). However maybe I will lay off encouraging her to read during that time and see what happens.

With the shoes, she was desperate for laces and I felt it was too early. I said she could have laces, but on the condition she practiced lacing them so she would be proficient with them within the couple of weeks she had till starting school. At the time I wondered whether it was the right thing to do and in hindsight I should have just gone with the valcro because it really did out too much pressure on the whole thing and I felt I had to follow through with it! At the end of the day, she can do it so I'll just leave off and help her if she wants it

Passthepotatoes - thank you so much for the comment about feeling the smallest thing is a huge pressure. I have taken that on board and will be really careful about that. I think that is definitely a factor for dd.

Alexsmum - thanks for the comment on the fact that obviously she is up for a challenge. You're absolutely right - your comment has changed my thinking. It's the following on with it when it isn't as easy as she'd like it to be that is more of the problem. But perhaps that isn't as big an issue as I had made it in my head.

So I will take all your comments and think over this issue with a new approach. I suspect less of some of what we're doing and more of other bits might be the key.

Thanks again!

My DS6.5's answer was "when I'm 15"... thankfully I knew it wouldn't take that long, and it didn't.

When DS6.5 really struggles with something, and it's really upsetting him, I let him take a breather. Then, I step in to help, and we discuss a small portion of whatever task is in front of him. We do it together (depends on the task/work as to what I actually do or don't do). We figure out the answer or solution slowly, discussing each part. It gives him a certain confidence... then I say "see, I knew you could do it", and me praising him pushes him to do the rest.

He also has tried to quit baseball and a few other things, and it's our rule that he HAS to finish the season or session of whatever we've signed up for. I also point out examples of where grown people have "failed", but it's ok (like a professional player striking out). This has been HUGE for us (and I really wish my parents made me finish what I started).

My guess is that she's reading more of it than she's letting on or that she wants to talk about. My impression from my child and from what I've read other parents post on lists, is that this phase of what appears to be flipping through books is common and likely much more productive than parents think it is. Many kids like to do a lot of reading a page here or there rather than working through the book in an organized fashion.

It takes a leap of faith, but I think it is always good to start from the idea that kids are born with a drive to learn and often have some good ideas what will help them learn (even if they can't articulate those ideas). Again and again, we've seen when we keep out of learning and don't attempt to direct it learning progresses often better than if we'd been involved. Sometimes what appeared to me to be pointless time wasting turns out to have been the perfect thing to get the child to the next skill level. So, I think it is a great idea to try to dissociate from this time and give her the space to work it out in whatever way she will.