Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Throwing down the gauntlet...long post

I have finally thrown down the gauntlet on my ds10's math situation.
Since 2nd grade I have been trying to get the school and teachers to:
1. present math at an appropriate level for him, and
2. de-stress 'speed of processing' in math facts, as this is a documented area of weakness for him and only ends up making him feel like he 'sucks at math', which he does not.

Despite warning and cajoling him most of June and July about keeping up with this multiplication math facts, he has returned to being 'not the speediest', although accurate in what he does complete. I had hoped they would be past the 'mad minute' of math sheets this years, but alas these seem more than ever to be a staple in this teacher's arsenal of mind numbing worksheets.

After getting 1 bad quiz grade, he is lamenting his lack of math ability, and I guess I am getting tired of having to remind him and let the new teacher know that math facts are just a small part of math and that when presented in a good light and at the right level, ds' enjoyment of math is a completely different story.

So I emailed the teacher and she agreed to de-emphasize these sheets (week 2).
Week 3 I saw her at back to school night and (stupidly) tried to have a quick conversation about harder spelling words and harder math; it did not go well. The spelling thing she can see for herself; he is beyond needing to practice spelling words, at any level. So she said a word study can be done. Great.
As to math, she said 'he's struggling with the 2's times tables', which I thought 'ok, she's insane' and I just said we should probably talk later and let it drop then.
Ds confirms he is having a lag in the area of multiplying 2 digit numbers, but not his 2's times tables, which is actually better than I would have expected from him. I figured maybe he was having issues with the 8s and 9s or something. After reviewing a bit with him, I think he is actually in an ok place with his math facts and just getting bored and distracted by lack of interesting stuff to do.
He doesn't have any problem doing double digit multiplication in his head, but stops me after a while because it is boring.

So, after mulling for a bit, I realized this remark from the teacher that he basically wouldn't be getting serious anything in math because he doesn't have every math fact fully memorized made me sick to my stomach. 3rd grade teacher was fantastic, and I knew the first conversation we had. 4th grade teacher was 'adequate', and although I knew that from the first conversation we'd had, I gave it some time to make sure. Yup, just barely adequate. This teacher is going to be poison, and it is already started. (Despite the fact that she is supposed to be 'very nice' I think she doesn't know anything about this subject - dealing with gt kids)

I sent an email to this main teacher, the gt teacher and the vice principal explaining ds one more time, and stating that he is going to be both bored and discouraged with his own abilities despite getting A's in math every year and pass advanced on these 'sols' they give; I am not sure of the validity of a chart I found, but the scores he's getting place him in 94-96th percentile in math according to this chart, and this is without studying for the state tests. (I never make him study for these things any more ~ it should be more of a test for the teacher anyway, but as he reviews, it seems pretty obvious he knows it all very solidly. )

The only real thing I see to do is to apply for ds to be assessed for identification in math for the gt program, so that they are 'forced' to give him differentiated material. I know that for folks around here with pg kids and problems specific to that, this might sound like a minor problem, but imo this might to make the difference between ds hating math forever and loving math forever.

I probably sound like I am being too aggressive with the process but I am just tired of waiting for the 'experts' to figure out what to do for ds. I think I would be doing him a real disservice by backing down from the strong feeling that he is getting exactly the OPPOSITE of what he needs in the subject of math: overemphasis on speed and almost no new material in the last 3 years.

Vent, vent, vent.

Hi Chris1234,

This isnt going to be what you want to hear, but about a week ago my fourth grader brought home a mad minutes sheet with a score of 12/30. Everything he answered was correct, but he only got through the first 12 problems. It was only simple single digit multiplication, it didn't even go up through the 12's.

I was surprised, but he said he just didn't have enough time. I sat down and timed myself. I *do* know all my math facts - but I intentionally wrote the numbers down at a rather moderate, but steady pace to get an idea of what would be reasonable for my slow writing 9 y.o.

It took me 51 seconds. So I decided that the mad minutes was unreasonable. I emailed his teacher for clarification on what the expectations were and explained that it had taken me 51 seconds. She wrote back that they ARE expected to do it.

That was enough for me. Obviously, in her experience with many children this is not an impossible task. Since then I have tried every day to give my son and his brother 30 multiplication questions and I time them. My fourth grader is down to under two minutes and I go up to 12x12, so the problems are a little harder. Then when they are done, I check for errors (rare) and they switch papers and are given one minute to copy over each others answers. This way they practice both multiplying fast and writing the numbers in under a minute.

I have noticed when working with my son on more advanced concepts that occasionally he will delay when the problem requires simple multiplication or division. The delay is because he does sometimes still need to think through the multiplication and it doesn't take long but sitting there waiting for him, even for just a few seconds, is agonizing. SO I agree with his teacher - he needs to do it automatically and fast.

I don't doubt for a second that your son is in need of more challenging math. But if he is in fourth or fifth grade, being able to multiply quickly is not an unreasonable prerequisite for this. I think you would be arguing from a position of greater strength if you first addressed the speed issue. If you've already tried, then ignore everything I've said.

ETA: I am currently displeased with my son's math placement and I am trying to find some alternatives. So I do know where you are coming from. I just don't think that memorizing under 100 multiplication facts is particularly challenging for a bright child. So to me that aspect of it is no biggie.

Since I don't have a child in elementary school I really can't speak to the accepted practice of drills in math, but I do think this constant drill of rote memorization is part of the bigger problem in our nation's educational structure.

Chris: He is clearly frustrated and your right. This could lead to a dislike of math and education in general. If I was in your shoes I would probably be looking for alternative methods myself.

We have these crazy speed drills too. They started with addition and subtraction and then, obviously, mult. and divis. they were a source of anxiety for DC in the beginning but now, they are second nature. We practiced them at home and I gave DC tips like, don't focus on neatness, but try to be legible, do NOT erase, that adds seconds to the time, cross out and rewrite next to it, and don't say the problem in your head (ex. DC was saying 7X8 then writing the answer) I said to just look and write the answer because all of those little things added up and tacked on time. Those tips were all it took and we are a pro at it now. I don't think there is anyway around doing them. DC started them in 2nd and is still doing them in 4th. (though we skipped 3rd, they obviously still do them in 3rd if they have to do them in 4th too.) That is just a small portion of math and though I don't agree that speed is a necessity (to that extreme) I think it's just something that takes 1- 2 minutes of their math time and I can overlook.

Perhaps starting small (try 10 problems in X time and make short term goals and work your way up to the full amt.) Sounds like there isn't a way around it. Make personal goals for him instead (if you know he can normally only do X, shoot for one more than that. Regardless if he completes to the teacher's standards, he met his personal goal of improvement.) That might increase motivation.

The issue is....if a child dislikes math, is it going to make getting those speed drills down any easier? Nope. Harder? Yes, if you have a kid like mine. Once he turns off to something, mental walls go up.

What I did w/ my son when his multi tables lagged behind his math...I gave him a multiplication chart to look at when he was doing long division and multi-digit multiplication. At a later point in the day, we did speed drills with card games, worksheets etc. He is noticeably slower on worksheets than card games. More relaxed perhaps w/ card games. BUT when DS was in school, the teacher said the math speed drills was often MORE about handwriting speed and less about knowing the facts. DS is NOT a fast writer. He forms each letter and number perfectly and carefully. As a 5th grader he's now a faster writer but has slowed down again w/ cursive. So I would look at handwriting speed. Do the facts orally w/ him looking at them on the paper and compare that time w/ him writing them down.

My son's is actually a bit worse than a "mad minute." They have to do 100 problems in 5 minutes. OF THE SAME TABLE. So if they're doing 2's, he has to do 100 problems of 2s with 100% accuracy! That's not measuring anything other than patience and test taking skills in my book. Add in that the teacher counts off every 30 seconds, then does an audible 10 second countdown at the end!?! My perfectionist burst into tears the first time because he had only finished 80.

I've asked the teacher to deemphasize it at school with no luck. She only agreed to change it to 90% accuracy to move on instead of 100%. It's infuriating because this is the ONLY math they're doing in school right now. Timed test and computer practice. I am now running a math pull-out for the GT identified kids 2x a week because the teacher didn't have time.

My son's in 3rd and has now passed up to his 4's. We just practiced and practiced at home, used Timez Attack and multiplication.com. His difficulty comes in solving every problem every time, to make sure it's correct. He's wicked fast if he doesn't have to be 'graded' but if he's going to be marked for it, he has to check and double check before he'll write it down. It takes a long time to add 6x6 to check your answer in your head.

This was my daughter. She knew all the math facts but couldn't finish the mad minutes. She has a thing about timed tests. They would not allow her to move on until she could complete this. Finally, the teacher gave the test to her orally and she finished in half the time. She just freezes when she knows she is being timed.
Ask the teacher if that is a possibility to take it orally.

No, I don't think that you sound overly aggressive at all. We were in the exact same spot with dd9 this year. She, too, is a 5th grader (will be 10 soon) and we were done with her not getting what she needs in math. She isn't as HG as some of the kids here either, but she has gifted IQ scores on the WISC-IV, scored in the 98th percentile for math on the WIAT at the end of 3rd grade after being taught virtually nothing in math that year, and scored high enough on the math part of the EXPLORE in 4th grade to be considered gifted for a 5th grader. B/c her group test scores are erratic (all higher than average, but some not high enough), she was going to be in straight 5th grade math this year with nearly 30 other kids.

It was an issue of her self image and her liking math. I see math ability in my dd b/c she is so creative with how she approaches math. She creates new ways to solve problems that work such as dividing and finding the area of a triangle. She knows the answers without knowing the intermediary steps that I have to go through. She just leaps from one to the end.

We were done so I emailed the GT teacher and the principal and asked for them to reconsider her math placement. We were prepared to homeschool as an alternative. Dd is now placed in the GT math class where they are doing 6th grade math and the GT teacher told me in the parent conference that dd is one of her stronger students. She probably won't be an A student on all of the material in the class, but she is holding her own and she understands the why of things. More importantly, her self image and math confidence is in a totally different place which is showing in her group achievement scores finally, too.

Good luck to you and your ds! I hope that you can get him what he needs.

Here's is my take on this.

Most math taught until Geometry is just arithmetic. I'd not worry too much about it.

BUT, being fast and intuitive is a great skill to have. And the only way to get it is to do drill.

Being able to finish exams' easy questions and leave time to finish the harder ones and get a 100% on it rests on the ability to do perfect work quickly.

Sometimes you are drilling the wrong way. You may want to take a step back and look at what you are doing.

Hi, thanks for all the responses! I definitely see the value of the speed on one hand, however the stress and discouragement is results in for my ds is just too much.
He ALWAYS gets these facts under his belt in fairly short order once he is back in school, so I am not worried about that but how it is perceived by the teacher and by him. He never fails to get regular math work done (homework or regular tests, etc.)

(In addition to being out of practice, the stopwatch of 1 minute really tends to just distract him rather than focus him. )

I do feel the school should be able to see the difference between overall math ability and the contrived speed tests. Doing things orally instead of written does tend to speed him up, or alternating the types of problems, instead of all multiplication of positive numbers, throwing in a few odd things...he will engage more and do better, and that is the whole point, imo.

I am not aware of the skill of intuition being increased by drilling on facts...?

We are going to move on in math at home whether or not they can do anything about this for ds at the school, that is for sure.