Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Achievement testing?

Thanks Kcab, I had forgotten. First you have to register, and then they 'test' you to see what level you are at.

I think Montessori isn't going to line up with other achievement tests very well. The genius of Montessori method is that it splits up every task into tiny tiny steps. This can really help with concentration or drive a gifted kid wild.

I guess I think that this particular school has treated your son well, and perhaps the best thing to do is bribe him to play their game and progress through their levels 'on faith.' My thought is that it might not matter if he's bored by school for a few months if he can 'bang out' all the easy-peasy stuff, the speed challenge itself might make it more fun...I think of it as an 'OBEYING' challenge. And you can be sure that eventually he will get to new material. ((Um, do check their hardest works and make sure that they do look like new material, ok?))

I can't remember if your son is bribable. If so, I would offer a really complicated reward system - small of 5 works completed per day, bigger of 6,even bigger for 7, giant super reward for 8 (or whatever is the usual amount of works/day) then I would make super-bribes for a weekly total, so if 8 works per day is really fabulous, and enough to get him to 3rd grade work in 3 months, I would add in bonus rewards for a whole week of 8 or more works per day.

Of course the drawback is that you are encouraging sloppy work. Sloppy work does have it's place, and you don't have a whole lot of other options. I love the idea of starting a super big project, and maybe these two approaches can be combined.

What I'm keeping in mind is that overall he's been happy at the school and that you don't have a lot of other options.

I honestly don't think that any achievement test is really going to 'prove' to the Montessori Mind that he is ready for harder works. Maybe you could work it out with them that if he does a great job 3 days in a row with 2nd grade work, that he gets to do a 'works' that is randomly pulled from 4th grade.

My son didn't do Montessori, but he did seem to get a nice little buzz from having a ridiculous goal and gettting through busywork fast. I think the idea of completing a school year in 3 months might have stimulated him, even if the work itself didn't.

Where's to bribable kids! I really feel for you parents of unbribable ones!

Grinity

Wow, thanks for all the info. Great insight into the Montessori process. My son LOVES school and can't wait to go every day, so we do have that going for us.

I've even been able to pull out him some great info on recent lessons he enjoyed. What I've been able to determine is: 1. There is SOME review (which he does not like and feels that he does not benefit from). 2. He is learning lots of new lessons/material as well. 3. He prefers the small group lessons vs. individual independent works. 4. He prefers to have a little direction throughout the day (i.e., he likes having a cheerleader.) 5. He'd like a few minutes every day to meet with his teacher to discuss the day's lessons/works so that they can talk about what was review and what was novel info. He'd also like to have some input on how much writing he needs to do to master a work. He says on some of them, it helps to write them several times; he thinks he can master some works after writing one or two examples. (I'm not sure how much input a 7 year old should have with this, but I like his idea of a short 5 min meeting at the end of the day.)

I do think we need to help him somehow b/c he's still very emotional at school and gets upset with himself multiple times daily. This results in meltdowns complete with yelling and crying. His teacher sent me a list of works that he's working on this month, and they seem appropriate for the most part. It's the reading, writing, and math that concern me. His teacher knows how well he reads. Yet, he still gets 2nd grade level SRA exercises and is expected to read the same books as all 2nd graders for reading circle.

He feels he's not good at math, yet his test scores do not reflect this. Also, when he doesn't think he's doing math, just solving a simple household problem, his mental math abilities amaze us. I wonder if he's equating ability with speed like he does with so many other things. He doesn't hate writing; he hates how long it takes him to write. He thinks everyone else is finishing faster than him. I'm afraid that he's not going to progress in math if he doesn't show them what he can do. I like the idea of a math placement test so that they can see where he is and what he is capable of. They do SRA, which I gather is some kind of reading comprehension program. He says he has to read baby stories. The stories are not interesting to him so he zones out and has to start again. I can SOOOO relate to this. He got his ADHD from me!

DS's teacher said he is completing, on average, 2-3 works per day. Her goal is 4-5 works per day. Ds's goal is 6-7 works per day. I told him I'd be thrilled with 4-5, and I set up an incentive program with him. We do not do electronics during the week in our house (no TV, no DSi, no Wii). DH and I told him if he completes 4 works per day, he can choose one electronic for 45 minutes after school. If he completes 5, he can choose 2, and if he completes 6 or more, he can choose 3. Well, today was the first day of this program, and he completed 6. His teacher said he asked for her help in planning the best way to complete at least 6! LOL So, he CAN do it if he wants. He even worked through his free-time (which he loves) so that he could finish 6 works. I am so proud of him for making such an effort and even sacrificing something he loves. I don't want him to burn himself out, but he can't settle for middle of the road. Like me, he's an all or nothing kind of person.

If he continues to work at this pace, he'll be into all new material soon enough, right? We'll see how it goes over the next couple of weeks, and of course, we are continuing the counseling.

As for the traditional classroom, definitely not a good idea for my ds. BTDT! Nightmare for all involved. He hated school, cried every day before and after school, and was in trouble ALL day for talking too much, getting out of his seat, and blurting out answers. Their suggestion was to keep repeating grades regardless of how academically advanced he was. That was a private school, and that was what led us to homeschool last year. Public school is not an option.

Our other school option is a very small (one room schoolhouse model) private school. All of the students are gifted or 2e. DS went there for enrichment classes and science class when I homeschooled. He participated in middle and high school science projects and had a blast! The down side is the limited number of kids his age (right now, they actually have only middle and high school students, but they all love ds) and the extremely small number of students in general.

Again, thank you. Don't know what I'd do without you all! I'll keep you posted.

That's a great relief! Even with the crying, it seems like on the whole this is good. And the school wants to work with you.

I remember doing SRA - they are supposed to be self-paced. Go to the website and get some contact info and find out if they have placement tests. Try http://www.mcgraw-hill.co.uk/sra/free-downloads.htm#placement2




I think that it's good that he gets to give imput into how much writing he wants to do, but that it's ok for the teacher to ask for a little more - afterall school is for learning to trust that one can do a bit more than they want to. I would just ask the teacher to keep in mind that he is only 7 years old. Ideally she will ramp it up slowly.


I think this is a great opportunity to 'Shamoo him' and recognize every ounce of emotional restraint he shows.

What program do they use for Math? Is it individualized pacing or do they do it as a group? Find out the brand and hunt down the company's placement test. Or use their 'end of year' assesments. Or let him take a series of 'end of unit' assesments. That way only has to study the problems he missed.

Just remember that the more Screen time he gets the less interested he might become in screen time. Watch him very carefully and see what is actually reinforcing TO HIM. Remember Dr. Suess and the Moose/Goose Juice problem. You may want to get a Fun Advanced Math book for home use and offer 'Math lessons' as an alternative reward to screen time. Or chess games with Mom. Or a catch. Or anything that he will work for.


This seems like a reasonable probability. As long as you keep checking you'll do well.

Yippee!

Grinity

Grinity,
I missed this post yesterday! Maybe we were posting at the same time? Funny that we did exactly what you were suggesting with the reward system. I know electronics are probably not the best for him, but it's what motivates this child. He could play video games for 24 hours straight if we'd let him. He hates to go a day without it. I know, not good, but at this point, I'm not above bribing. We do limit the face time, however.

So, I think I'll complicate the reward system a bit. He and I did have a talk after school yesterday because he is intrigued by the boy in his class who skipped 3rd grade. He was in ds's class last year as a 2nd grader, and he is now in the upper elementary class (4-6th grades). We discussed the fact that if he quickly works through the things that seem too easy and stops spending his day procrastinating, that he'll soon get to the more challenging lessons. He was pretty into it. He even said, "maybe if I can complete all the 2nd AND 3rd grade lessons this year, I can get in the other classroom quicker with my friends." He considers the 4th graders his real friends and cried at the end of last year when he realized they'd be moving up without him.

I think trying to get through to ds might be easier than re-creating the wheel around there. Not that I'm not willing to fight for him, but I do like what Momma Bear said about the benefits of going through the steps. DS really needs to learn patience and control. Montessori is a good, nurturing environment in which to learn these difficult skills.

And, like you said, Grinity, if he likes school and is happy to be there, that's going to be my litmus test for now. I might suggest that ds not be required to do so much writing, however. Personally, I do not think writing is reinforcing with him. I know it is for many people, including me, but not for him. When he's copying, he's not even thinking about what he's writing. He's putting letters on a page and trying to get it over with as quickly as possible.

As for sloppy work, I really don't care. Although, they are very big on neatness at his school. You can't work up to the big composition books until you complete an entire small (blue book or pink book-like the ones we used in college) very neatly. Each year, they make you start over in the smaller book as a motivator and practice book. DS hates writing in the small book b/c he thinks it means he's not good enough or he's a baby. So, that would be my only reluctance to not stressing neatness. He moved up to the big comp book already this year, but then he was moved back down due to sloppy handwriting. Once he gets the notebook he wants, he quits worrying about it. ; )

Personally, if I can read what he wrote, that's all I care about in terms of handwriting. He can write very beautifully, but his brain just works faster than his hands and his working memory. I think I need to break out he keyboarding program again.

Does anyone have a great keyboarding program they'd recommend? Ours is decent, but not great. I bought it b/c it was cheap.

You are absolutely right. This school has treated ds very well and is more than willing do go the extra mile for him. His teacher cried last year when she showed me his progress in writing b/c she was so proud of him. She's a wonderful teacher; I'm not going to fault her for needing a little guidance.

Great ideas Grinity. I think challenging him to complete 2nd grade by Christmas might work. I don't want him to feel pressured, but he's a kid who is motivated by extrinsic rewards. Sorry Montessori folks! Gotta do what ya gotta do! ; )

Go Jen!

Yippee!

I would still check out if SRA has a placement test. Talk to the folks at the company and explain that the school wants your help to know how to decide where to place him (so that they know you aren't one of those parent - wink!)

I can feel your DS aligning his goals with the school policies and it's a great feeling. What a terrific goal to get back together with his 'real' friends next year!!!

Go Jen! You Rock!
Grinity

I found the SRA placement tests online. They have one for comprehension and one for decoding.

DS has continued to complete all of his works daily since we started the incentive "program". He even had a meltdown free day yesterday.

I got a little clarification on the meltdowns at school, and ds had another counseling session yesterday. When he has an actual meltdown, it's ALWAYS related to perfectionism or avoiding boring or un-challenging work. The other "outbursts" that the teacher would like to get under control have to do with ds raising his voice and getting upset at other students. Usually, his reaction doesn't match the situation. In other words, he overreacts and takes things personally that he probably should be able to blow off.

DS and I have been discussing ways to avoid these conflicts. One issue is that he worries too much about what other kids are doing. I've told him he is to worry about his own work and forget about what other students are doing. He's in everyone else's business too much, and then he doesn't understand why they get upset with him.

For example, he corrected a 1st grader for scribbling all over his paper. The kid told him he could do what he wanted, and ds got upset b/c the kid wouldn't listen and follow the rules. When ds started Montessori, it was ok for other students to correct him, and he didn't like it. Now it's his turn to "help" the younger first graders, but evidently he's not taking a nurturing approach! ; )

So, I told him to forget about helping the others for now and just worry about his own work.

The teacher actually said yesterday was the best day he's ever had. DS seemed a bit perplexed by this; to him it was just a good day. Also, ds was happy about the day because not only did he finish all of his work, he even asked to do a 3rd grade work. He didn't know it was a 3rd grade work until he'd completed it; it was just something that interested him (homonyms). He is really into language. You should hear the "explanations" he comes up with to explain English words that do not follow phonetic rules. It's so funny how he will invent a spelling or grammar rule just to restore the order and pattern he is looking for! He can't accept that some words just don't follow the rules.

The counselor says he has no doubt that the "meltdowns" are really anxiety attacks. He spent some time with ds teaching him relaxation techniques, and they did some guided imagery, which ds loved. I am hoping we can help him handle the anxiety without medication. For now, we're going to stick with the counseling and see how it goes.

Thanks again everyone!

When you mentioned his reaction doesn't match the situation it reminded me of this article about the emotional response scale which I found useful:
http://giftedkids.about.com/od/socialemotionalissues/qt/emotion_coping.htm

So glad that there is some improvement for DS. I am sure having the counselor help him with his anxiety will make a world of difference (and while I know medication can really be necessary at times, I think it is great you decided to try something else first).

Cat

Sounds good, Jen!

I'm not familiar with the older kids offering correction to younger kids in the classroom - it may or may not happen at my school but my kids have never mentioned it.

It sounds like you're making progress! You're doing a great job!!

Thanks snowgirl! I'm trying, but I guess Rome wasn't built in a day. More outbursts again today. The interesting thing is he's finishing his work without frustration, perfectionism, or meltdowns. Yet, he's still raising his voice and yelling at other kids. The teacher said he'll even cross the room to correct someone he thinks is doing something wrong. He's got to quit being such a busy body! The teacher said he's asserted himself as the classroom "rule enforcer"! LOL! I might have to come up with some new really complicated reward system to get him to stop doing that now! Oh well, baby steps...and right now the fact that he's doing his work without problems is wonderful. I'll take that!