Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Achievement testing?

I got a call from the guidance counselor at my son's Montessori school. She is actually a licensed school psychologist (LSP). We are having a hard time determining appropriate academic levels in different academic subjects for my son because of his reluctance to complete assignments that are too easy and too hard. The way he put it to me is, "sometimes they're hard BECAUSE they're too easy."

Would achievement testing provide this information for us? We don't really want general grade-level placement tests (if there is such a thing) because he's definitely not on the same level across subjects. I wasn't planning to do any testing anytime soon, but if this would give us the info we/they need, it might be worth it. She also suggested having new gifted testing done to see if ds gets similar scores now that he is medicated. She suggested that with new testing he might not have such a discrepancy between verbal and nonverbal scores now that he is 2 1/2 years older and on ADHD medication. She also recommended doing a different test than the SB-5 since that is the one we did before.

Any thoughts? How can we find out where to begin teaching him? He says every day, he sits and does work he already knows. The school seems to be very willing to help ds. They are willing to accelerate the pace of instruction as well as allow ds to skip lessons if he can show proficiency in some way. I think they just need a starting point and suggestions for how to go about doing this.

I'd appreciate any advice you have to offer.

If achievement testing is the way to go, which test would you use? Also, which IQ test would you recommend other than SB-5? We used a private school-psychologist to do the last testing. Can we do that again with new testing, or do we really need to find a neuropsych? Thanks again!

JenSMP -
Most Achievement tests don't help with school placement. They are more about comparing kids to other kids in various areas than helping teachers know what to do with kids. The MAP is an exception, and I would certianly suggest that the guidance counselor try and set that up.

I think that curriculum compacting is going to give you your actual answer. In this he 'pre-tests' each new subject and only has to go through the actual material if he get's less than a 80%.

More about this in the book http://www.amazon.com/Developing-Math-Talent-Educating-Advanced/dp/1593631596#reader_1593631596

they call it the Diagnostic testing - Prescriptive Instruction Model.

It's not an exact science - someone who knows the curriculum well and has an open mind needs to sit down with him and ask him lots of questions and observe his thought process.

If it's Math - try Aleks.com's free asessment.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Our montessori school uses the MAP tests liberally - three times per year for everyone - for grades 3 and up. For grades 1-2 they recently started using STAR tests. While I think both of them fall into the category of quick-and-dirty, they might be a place to start before you spend on formal achievement testing, if your school is willing to do them.

I hope your child's teacher is keeping close track of the works he has done. If they're too easy, why don't they skip ahead and try something much harder without requiring a show of proficiency first, just to get a feel for where he's at? I think that if the montessori teacher thinks about it carefully, they ought to be able to come up with a plan.

What age/grade level is your child, and where do you think he's at (with math/reading)? Figuring out what he can do with math, for example, shouldn't really be that difficult, though I do understand what it's like to have a child who pretends not to know anything and who is afraid to try any work that might require him actually having to use his brain (due to both fear of failure and exertion of mental effort in an otherwise too-easy world).

Does he ever ask for specific works? Is he afraid to ask for some reason? Does he need a lot of direction? Different kids approach these things differently. How about his teacher - is s/he willing to demand more of him, or is she wedded to child-led work selection? I guess I'm trying to get at the root of the problem....

As for the testing, I'm not sure what the difference is that you're asking about - the private school psych vs. a neuropsych - they ought to be able to do the same thing, though a neuropsych who specializes in gifted/twice exceptional kids may have more expertise in the test administration and analysis that would benefit your son (if the private school psych is more accustomed to "average" kids). If the cost is similar, I'd definitely go with the neuropsych.

just thinking out loud...

I know the 3rd-6th graders take the Iowa Basic Skills Test each year. Would something like that work? If MAP testing is the way to go, how does the counselor gain access to this testing if it's not something that's typically done?

Maybe it's just me, but I can't seem to find the free assessment on the site.

DS7 is in second grade. We homeschooled the first semester of last year to "complete KG" and then he spent the second semester at the Montessori school completing first grade. He's in second grade now. I think they're having a hard time believing that the work is too easy because as soon as ds sees the assignment, he asks for help or says it's too hard. It's his way of procrastinating and avoiding doing the work. The teacher says that she's very open to the possibility that he's mastered the material, he isn't showing her that so she has no way of knowing for sure. I can see her dilemma.

I know he knows most of this work though. For example, the other day one of his works was to learn about "er," "or," and "ar." He had to write (not his favorite thing!) 10 "er" words, 10 "or" words, and 10 "ar" words. He didn't even have to generate the words. He just had to copy them. Maybe I'm off base, but ds is reading at a 6-8th grade reading level. That would lead me to conclude that he has mastered er, or, and ar, correct? That's just one example, but it's as if they're looking at each "work" in isolation rather than looking at the big picture.

Also, while he knows how to add and subtract well, he's not super fast with it. Because of this, he hasn't moved on to multiplication or division. When we were homeschooling he was doing long division, and that was a year ago. He hasn't done it once at Montessori. I think any school is going to have a tough time not going through linear steps, especially in math.

The school tells me they can be flexible with the pace of completing the works, and they even said ds can skip works if he can show them he knows the material. I just don't think they have a clear idea of how to have him do that. Also, I asked the teacher the other day if they were reviewing from last year, and she said yes. She also mentioned that because ds was only there for one semester he didn't complete all the works. Honestly, does he really need to complete all the works? She just said it's ok to skip them! Her heart is in the right place, and she really wants to help. I just think the whole Montessori philosophy, which works well for so many, is ingrained to such a degree it's hard to step outside the box.



DS has particular works that he prefers and expresses an interest in those (specifically, "who am I: problem solving exercises and creative writing (only if he can choose the topic). I don't think he feels like he can ask for any works outside of his work plan. He is a very "rulesy" kind of kid. He may become extremely frustrated by the rules, but he's not a rule breaker. The teacher would be fine with demanding more of him. I think she's afraid that if she does, he'll have even more meltdowns. The problem is, in Montessori (at least at our school) demanding more means more writing. While his writing is good, it takes a decent amount of effort on his part. Interestingly, he can write forever when it's in his journal at home. That's when he can be creative. He does need direction. He has ADHD and tends to get off-task. I think he asks the teacher for help when he's having trouble staying on task (to me, this is a good compensatory strategy on his part). She interprets this as him having difficulty with the academic work.


I think neuropsych testing will be more thorough and looks at things from a more medical/cognitive perspective, while psychoeducational testing looks more at how learning impacts the child in the classroom only. At least this is my take on it. My problem is finding anyone who is well versed in testing 2e children. It would be easier to find someone to do the psychoeducational testing, but neuropsych is probably the way to go.

On a side note, a few minutes ago I received an email from ds's teacher with a list of topics he is studying. They all sound more advanced that what he describes to me. Hmmm....Not sure what to think about that.

Thanks for all of your advice.

He sounds a lot like kids I've taught and in some ways my own DS7. A few thoughts...

Montessori uses the step by step method of instruction. This is, show me, what is this. Each lesson uses that basic format. Once one lesson is mastered the next in the series is then presented. It is very linear and depending on if you are dealing with an AMI or AMS school can be a challenge to change.

Having said that many lessons are actually already compacted and accelerated in the very format in which they should be presented. Addition and subtraction should be presented very early on with 4 digits right away. Exchanging lessons are usually done early as well. Many different skills can be presented along side each other. I remember my then 5 year old working with addition, fractions, multiplication, and geometry all in the same week.

The problem may be coming in the fact that your son hasn't been in Montessori since he was 3, which is when they usually start. So for the teacher she is trying to teach him using a method that normally starts at age 3. Even accelerating would take time. For example if he hadn't ever done the knobbed cylinder work which would usually be done at the 3's and 4's she may feel like your son needs this. This work can look like a waste of time for him, when actually it is teaching a child many things including proper pencil position and the feel of different weights for later weight lesson. It reinforces visual and spatial skills as well. Or she may have him doing the long bead chain which is time consuming and he may complain in doing it. It is really multiplication through skip counting, concentration work, fine motor skills ect.

The other thought is the concentration that Montessori teaches. For a gifted child whose mind is going a million miles a minute, the Montessori method can be a challenge. I know it was for my son. He was asked to slow down and do things step by step to completion when his mind was 5 steps beyond that. For the 3-5 years ages we loved this. It forced him to start to train him mind to do what he wanted, not the other way around. A huge task for a gifted kid. Maybe your son is experiencing the same thing. That training of the mind to really concentrate has been a blessing for my now DS7.

One last thought. You may ask your child what interests him in science or social studies and see if he can do a big project on it. Montessori allows for big involved research projects. He could type it or do a powerpoint if writing is an issue. This would give him the break his mind needs. Slowing down and doing things step by step can be mentally, emotionally and physically exhausting in the beginning. With a project he can think 5 steps ahead, map it out, play with options and come up with great results. It could incorporate higher level thinking skills, higher vocabulary, math, graphs of results, drawing or art. The possibilities are endless. Usually one or two weeks on the same project is a good place to start.

Hope that helps! Good luck

Jen, just a thought: are you sure that Montessori is the best place for your DS?

I ask because curriculum and delivery style matters, and yet it's not always as one might expect things to turn out. My tendency as a parent is all toward Montessori/informal schooling; and yet I have a DS8 who really does best in a rulesy, old-fashioned, worksheety kind of school environment. Montessori would not have worked for him.

An advantage of the more old-fashioned style of delivering content is that they have more cut-and-dried ideas about what constitutes mastery than Montessori schools tend to, so acceleration is a bit easier for them to gauge and accept. (You can do this worksheet? OK, move on to a harder worksheet.) Not saying there aren't disadvantages of this style, there are plenty, just saying that sometimes it is important to match the style to the kid's pattern of strengths and weaknesses.

I know you're in the middle of many considerations and I don't mean to muddy the waters for you... just thinking sympathetically of you and your DS who sounds a great deal like my DS at that age, complete with meltdowns and inattention, ability to complete preferred vs. non-preferred work, and so forth.

I agree with you: a neuropsych will be able to tune your understanding of 2E issues in a way that an educational psych may or may not be able to.

DeeDee

I decided to put my ridiculously long post in a PM... (mostly because I didn't want so many details out in "public" forever)

I didn't read through the other posts yet but I do think it's always wise to consider traditional schooling. I do miss the concreteness of cutoffs, when someone has learned something, etc.

I can't say much about the fit of traditional schooling for your ds. I can only say why it would be a wrong move for us (though I continually re-evaluate this, as I did when another, more traditional charter school called me recently because my kids had gotten in through the lottery - I ended up turning it down). My kids, one ds in particular, have more difficulty with a traditional, sit-and-listen approach, and one of the things about montessori that helps them learn is that they are nearly always taking instruction in very small groups (like 1-4). For ds with the slow processing speed, this is much easier for asking for oral instruction to be repeated, etc. than it would be in a classroom where he'd have to stop everyone in order to get that. For me, the other thing I like about it is the flexibility - I can get on the teacher's back and ask for subject acceleration when I think it's necessary, but I don't have to if I think my child is on the level or behind (their 2E-ness plays a role). While there are things about a more traditional setting that are appealing, I'm afraid that I'd be boxed in. And I'd only consider certain pseudo-traditional schools (mostly charters or private). For us, the neighborhood school, while supposedly excellent, is out of the question because it does not allow for enough acceleration in anything... it couldn't be more "inside the box". That's not to say I won't change my mind next year or next month, but for right now, balancing the various factors, we'll stay with the montessori. (thanks ladies, for making me think through this yet again :))

DeeDee is right to point out more traditional schooling as having a very concrete mastery point. Pass such as such with an 80% and you can move on for example. Traditional Montessori isn't going to work like that. At least not in the 6-9 year olds (1st - 3rd). There is no cut score that I've ever seen except in spelling. And it's more child directed than traditional schooling as well. Which can be great for some kids and not so great for others.

I remember in my student teaching having a very bright boy want to pour water and scoop rice all day or he wanted to do work that was above the level he was ready for. That same boy would become super frustrated with appropriate work even though he could do it just fine. His mind was ready for harder work only his concentration level and maturity weren't.

Thankfully I had a fantastic master teacher there to help figure out what to do. She got a desk and assigned it to him. NOT a typical Montessori method, but he needed that. She assigned him a large project to complement his lessons and required him to write less than other children since writing was an issue for him. And she allowed him to pour rice or water or do something below his level once a day. She met all his needs. It was absolutely amazing to watch. I only wish I had been there to see how it played out by the end of the year. I'm guessing fantastically.

I guess it comes down to what we all face each year... Is the teacher willing and able to adapt to the students needs.