Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment SB-5 Floors and Ceilings

Please be kind all this testing stuff is really new to me and I am having trouble understanding the process. I apologize beforehand if I ask something that has been answered a million times here or ask a question that seems easy to answer. I am new to this whole thing.

My son is 3 years 10 months and I found out that to get into the program we want him in for K he will have to take the SB-5. I am pretty laid back about the whole thing but I would like to know how it works a little better and after googling for a few days I am still not really clear. I will tell you what I think is happening and you can correct me and fill in my gaps.

They give him a couple tests to see what level he is at (lets say he is C) then they move to the rest of the test starting each new test at level C. If he answers the level C question this is the floor. If he gets C wrong but B's questions right his floor is B? Then he answers questions till he gets 2 consecutive questions (?) wrong and the level before the wrong answers is his ceiling. Unless he doesn't get any of the questions wrong and the last level they have is his ceiling. Will they keep asking questions to level lets say S? Or do they have a certain level that is the ceiling for his age?

How do they use the floors and ceilings to determine his score on each test and the final score? Are his scores compared with other 3 year 10 month year olds or will he be compared with kids scores in a certain range?

How long should I expect him to be in their with the psychologist? Do they go right into the test or play a little while? How far in advance should I tell him he is going to take a test?

Thanks!!!!

Thanks Dottie!!! The information you provided was really helpful and the link for Hoagies was perfect! Thanks for the info on the norming group that is the first time I could get an answer on that. Good stuff! I appreciate it.

I use the SB-5, and Dottie's got it pretty well right.

Basically, most standardized tests use a basal-ceiling structure. You start at a certain point, somewhere that is supposed to be very easy for the client, so that they will get them all right. If they get some number in a row right, you assume that anything easier than that they'd also get right, so they get credit for all of those items below the basal. Then you work your way up. Eventually, as things get harder and harder, they're not going to get them all right any more. And eventually, they're going to get them all wrong. If they get some number in a row wrong, you assume that anything more difficult than that they'd also get wrong, so you discontinue the task, and they get no credit for any items above the ceiling. (You'll hear the word "ceiling" used in two related but different ways, it can be a little confusing.)

The rules for where you start, what constitutes a basal, what constitutes a ceiling, and other fine points, are all defined in the test manuals. You have to follow the rules -- that's part of what makes it a standardized test.

One of the many annoying things about the Wechsler tests (WPPSI, WISC, WAIS) is that they do not allow the tester to adjust the starting point, which means that testing gifted kids takes . for . ev . er. The Woodcock-Johnson tests allow the tester to estimate a starting point (they have charts to give you guidance on each test). I like that a lot, because I can be efficient with testing and not bore the kid. I tell the kids I'm starting pretty high, so that if we have to drop back, it's no great shame.

On the SB-5, there's a routing procedure. You do one verbal and one nonverbal subtest where you start based on age, backtracking as necessary if the client doesn't establish a basal. Then the raw scores on each of those direct you where to start the other four verbal and the other four nonverbal subtests. On each of those eight subtests, items are grouped into 6-point sets at six different levels. If you get routed to level four on the verbal subtests and the client does badly on one subtest at level four, you drop back and administer level three of that subtest, and you keep backtracking as needed (rarely need to go back more than one level) until the client establishes a basal. Then you go back to where you were and move forward until the client establishes a ceiling. The only thing that's weird is that the subtests are interleaved with each other -- you do four nonverbal subtests at level four, then those same four nonverbal subtests at level five, etc. Makes me feel like an octopus sometimes, juggling all of the materials. It probably does reduce the "which subtest came last when the kid was tired" problem, and I think it's supposed to be more true to the old style tests where there was really only one test that kept shifting item type.

(Oh, and it's not "two consecutive questions wrong." On the SB-5, discontinuation criterion is if you get 0-2 of the available 6 points in a level, and then only that subtest is discontinued, the others keep going.)

Aimee- Thanks as well! I totally get the ceiling and the floor now and how they establish that for each test subject. I am glad I asked because I feel more informed about the process which in turn makes me feel a lot calmer about the whole thing. And a calmer parent leads to a calmer kid on test day.

Thanks for your time!

I would say that if your child is growing up in a medical family, and understands 'test' as in 'a thing doctors do to learn about a patient' then test is fine as long as the kid understands that there are no 'shots.' I like this because it encourages the child not to fool around. If the only 'tests' at your house are the school kind, where the amount of preparation a person puts in is presumed to influence their 'test score' then test is a bad word to use.

Something like, 'the doctor wants to see more about how you learn and help the school people know how to teach you' might work well. So much depends on the individual child.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I *do* use the phrase "test," because I think most GT kids are perceptive enough to hear Mom and Dad saying it once in a while, so we don't want to leave them wondering what's so awful we aren't telling them about it. What I say is that these aren't like tests at school -- you can't pass or fail them. It's like the Goldilocks story -- we're looking for some things that are too easy, some things that are too hard, and some things that are just right. The other metaphor I use is that we are like "learning detectives" -- we're going to see how you do different things, which are hard and which are easy for you, to get a sense of how you think and learn best. I like the idea that it's like a doctor's test, too, although that has more scary implications, and you can have "bad test results" from a doctor.

Interesting about whether to call it a test or not. DS6 was tested at 4 and the psychologist didn't call it a test, just said that it was to figure out how his brain works and how to help him best when he gets to school. That seemed to work well (not that he would have cared had she used the word test). Then a few months ago he was asking to go and play with the psychologist again and do some of those games. I had to explain to him that it was a test and what it was for and that we can't just go hang out with her all the time (although we do still keep in touch and she has helped advocate for him some). He seemed to understand somewhat, but still said he wanted to go do some more testing sometime : ) I think it was one of the first times he has ever done anything challenging so he liked it. This year at 5yo the school had him take the state tests for math that was end of 3rd grade just to get a better idea of how to place him next year. It was his first time taking a real "test" and he loved it (his favorite part I think was filling the little bubbles on the scantron).

DS14 said that the 4 hour set of test he took at age 7 was the best day of his life so far, I think for the same reason. DS14 also loved taking the SATs at age 13 - he said it was like being inside a giant puzzle. So there is hope for your son, Shelly!

Smiles,
Grinity

With ds4 we went with doing puzzles, seeing what you know, and a brain check up. The check up was like going to the doctor without the shots! They all seemed to satisfy him, and he seemed somewhat interested in doing it again, which is good because the WPPSI was for our info, in February he has to take a different one for the gifted programs! I also wanted to avoid the fail aspect which seems implicit in testing. I was more worried about the leaving him with the tester part, but he did okay with it. He was tougher than mom!!