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    Joined: May 2010
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    I have a kiddo who does not test gifted but otherwise has the signs and symptoms... We moved schools and she got skipped up 2 years in math. For a while she knew none of the material because she had not been taught.... It was great to see her work and enjoy it and she loved the teacher...but we also knew that the pace would sooner or later disolve into something that did not work for her...She came into the class mid year and ended up the top in the class and flying through the material.... We were lucky with her placement at the school as they let the kids work at their own level but could not adjust for pace.... I am not sure why she does not get the scores she needs and I agree that instruction needs to be tempered according to some criteria I just do not agree that an IQ test should be the sole criteria. I know that there needs to be cut-offs and ways to deal with the funding etc. My kiddo is not PG by anymeans but she sure needed something more akin to a gifted student than a high achiever student.

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    Originally Posted by flower
    I have a kiddo who does not test gifted but otherwise has the signs and symptoms... We moved schools and she got skipped up 2 years in math. For a while she knew none of the material because she had not been taught.... It was great to see her work and enjoy it and she loved the teacher...but we also knew that the pace would sooner or later disolve into something that did not work for her...She came into the class mid year and ended up the top in the class and flying through the material.... We were lucky with her placement at the school as they let the kids work at their own level but could not adjust for pace.... I am not sure why she does not get the scores she needs and I agree that instruction needs to be tempered according to some criteria I just do not agree that an IQ test should be the sole criteria.

    She doesn't sound like she's just a high acheiver though....I would doubt that a non-gifted high achiever, placed two years above, could start behind the other students and in less than a year outpace all of them.

    I don't believe that a single (type of) test score should rule out anything, btw. Too many variables. And it sounds like between the pitfalls of group administered tests and the problem of individual testers who lack experience with gifted kids, there are lots of ways for giftedness to get missed.

    You make me reconsider my earlier thoughts though. I was thinking about performance from an achievement test perspective, but I also subscribe to an RTI kind of approach. Given material that is appropriate to begin with (at actual level vs. at grade level), a child can demonstrate a need for gifted services based on an unusually deep or rapid acquisition of the material (as you've described). A child who is a high achiever but not gifted might demonstrate that kind of acquisition with grade level material, but probably wouldn't if placed in a situation where the content was all new. Of course, given the range of giftedness, there is going to be a significant range in rate and depth even with the gifted population. Certainly not all gifted children need the same thing. I just think that there is a difference between what gifted children of all levels need when compared to children within the range of typical cognitive abilities.

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    Taminy
    Some great insights
    Thanks

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    Thanks for all the input. It was very helpful. I'm very new at this because he's my firstborn. I did refer to the Ruf's list and that was very helpful. As someone mentioned the overlaps are kinda fuzzy..so I can see he's more of a level 3 and level 4 mix.
    However, the IQ correlations are so different from the numbers of my family from over 20 years ago. Again, I got very useful info from many parents commenting that numbers are now very different from the past assessments so thanks very much for all the insight!

    I'm still not sure what to do. I guess I will wait to hear from the teacher and take it from there. My friend who was a former school teacher and also insists my son is gifted says I really need to be aggressive about advocating for my son.

    Any tips on what to say or how to speak to the principal or director of the G&t program?


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    Cocomom,
    Since your son was group tested, perhaps you could print off some information about gifted kids and group testing (an example: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm ). You might then either write a letter or request a meeting and present this as something that was shared with you. Then raise the question as to whether this might be a factor for your--now twice--teacher referred child. Perhaps request that the administrator/gate keeper gather a bit more information from the referring teachers regarding your child's demonstrated need for something beyond the typical curriculum. You might even take the approach like: "I understand that this program has set criteria. I guess I'm wondering what the instructional plan will be in place of his admittance to the program. I'm concerned that both of his teachers felt that there was a need not being fully met by the general classroom/curriculum. If the program isn't an option, I'm wondering what the plan will be for meeting his needs in the coming year. I want my son to continue enjoying/benefitting from school, and I have a lot of respect for his previous teachers' and their observations". Or something like that smile Given that both referrals originated with the teachers rather than with you the parent, you probably have a leg up on those of us who have to come in and challenge the perceptions' of our childrens' teachers. You might also take the approach of asking for the administrator's experience. "I'm obviously pretty new to this. Have you had kids in the past who didn't test well but then participated in the program and performed well? If so, would you be willing to let my son give it a try?".

    A final question for you to consider: is this a good program? Will it give your child something that he will really benefit from? How much you advocate could have a lot to do with the answer to that question. If this is about an hour of enrichment a week, then waiting another year and accumulating more evidence of the mismatch between curriculum and need is probably not a problem. If this is a matter of subject acceleration, however, it will be more important to advocate because so many tests are impacted by what a child gets exposed to instructionally. If a year from now he is going to have his scores evaluated in comparison to same age peers who have recieved above-level instruction for a solid year, then this testing outcome is more likely to repeat itself. It concerns me that so few tests seem to have a way to incorporate exposure to material in their scoring. It seems to me that even where tests are not achievement based, outcomes are still likely to impacted by the variety of experiences a child has. After all, content is not just content: it is also opportunity to think about and analyze information. I would tend to think that the greater a child's range of experiences, the more developed those abilities should become. My DS, for instance, was given a math test in K that was supposed to be "ability" not "acheivement" based. He did poorly on it and his K teacher was distressed when she talked to me about it because she felt that she hadn't exposed him to some of the material he would have needed in order to understand what was being asked. He was slated for a great 1st grade teacher, and there is no real "program" here, so I just let it stand. This year, his second grade teacher requested evaluation based on classroom performance, and lo and behold, he tested at the 99th on the regular scale and the at the 97th on the gifted scale on the same test. It's my belief that maturity played some role, but I also strongly suspect that by the time he retook this test, he had a broader,stronger store of knowledge to draw from and apply to the novel tasks and problems he was given.

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    AGAIN, THANKS SO MUCH for all the great comments and advice.

    @Taminy-- I will definitely use the article on group testing and your advice on how to approach the teachers/directors. I made the decision to appeal the decision.

    Also, in reading other posts and such I don't think my son is a high achiever because he really doesn't care to do what he's supposed to. It's more about acquiring "new" material for him.
    I'm worried that will be a problem for him in the later years. Doing what is required is fine and he'll do it well but then he doesn't want to do what's extra--or practice anything. His bright friend/classmate is always bringing home extra homework to do. When I ask my son he says, "we don't have to do it..only if we want to." To him those homework sheets are considered "practice" which he hates to do. When I ask him to "practice" or show me what he learned..he says, "but I already know it-- why do I have to practice?" Is that normal or is he just lazy?

    I know the example that Taminy gave for her DS and less exposure to some material was a factor for my son in taking the test. I think that's why he was able to pass the OLSAT the 2nd time around without any prep or practice ( I still have no idea what kind of questions are on that exam). I'm hoping the same will happen if they allow him to retest on the COGAT. Best case they'll totally agree with my appeal and just allow him into the program!! HAHA-- wishful thinking!!! Wish me luck!!

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    Originally Posted by cocomom
    Doing what is required is fine and he'll do it well but then he doesn't want to do what's extra--or practice anything. Is that normal or is he just lazy?

    Sounds like my DD, so "normal for our house," if that helps. Although my DD is currently in a "I can't get my own drink of water without whining" phase, so I wouldn't rule out lazy in her case. wink

    Originally Posted by cocomom
    I know the example that Taminy gave for her DS and less exposure to some material was a factor for my son in taking the test. I think that's why he was able to pass the OLSAT the 2nd time around without any prep or practice ( I still have no idea what kind of questions are on that exam).

    My notes from DD's 1st grade OLSAT say: Parts 1 and 2 got done on Monday, and were apparently "which one doesn't belong" and analogies ("There was a picture of a flower and a flower petal, then a picture of a tree, and we had to pick what went with the tree"). Part 3 was today, and involved the teacher reading a problem, which they had to solve in their heads ("KidName had two friends, and 9 stickers. Everyone got the same number of stickers. How many stickers did each person get?").

    We got verbal, non-verbal, and composite scores, plus the standard error of measurement, which was 5.3. I don't know that the SEM varies much between test versions.

    FWIW, our school district uses composite + SEM in determining whether kids make the cutoff.

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    Originally Posted by cocomom
    Is that normal or is he just lazy?

    I ask myself this question (about me!) every.day!

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    Hi Again to all you very helpful and supportive people who helped me back in May....My DS is in 2nd grade now. He was nominated by his 1st grade teacher for testing into the G&T program. He passed the required 132 on the OLSAT but scored under the required(132) on the COGAT-- he scored 124 last spring. He retested just last week and his results came in at 128. So, he improved his score but still didn't meet the required 132 to get an "EALP"(exceptionally able learning program). However, his consolation prize is the "math club" which basically is a pullout math program offered to a few kids who are way above grade level.

    Now, do I take out the big guns? A neighborhood friend is a G&T teacher in a neighboring more progressive district. They do test but not Olsat nor Cogat and they don't rest everything on the results of these tests. She heard my cries for help. I really only wanted her opinion of how I should approach the school. It turns out that she has helped prep 3 other kids from our neighborhood to pass our districts requirements for tests by working with them and "prepping them". She volunteered to do the same with my son but I declined because I felt bad taking time away from her kids (they are 2 and 3yrs).

    She did however sit with him to evaluate him. She gave him the interview sheet that she uses to screen kids in her district. She said they are 10 G&T problems and it usually takes 15mins to complete but he completed them with her in 2 mins. Okay, so I'm not crazy and he should be working on stuff like this. She said he doesn't even write stuff down..just looks up and figures it all out in his head. She was surprised. So, she ended up working with him on 3rd grade G&T level questions and he still was able to solve them.

    Anyway, what do I do now? Keep asking to restest? Do I stop and take a break?? I would really like to figure out what stumps him on the tests..Is it the same type of question? My friends are all telling me to demand a sit-down..does it work that way?

    I'm mostly venting today because I just got the news. Thanks. Would appreciate any feedback.

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    Would they accept a test from a private testing provider (i.e. school psychologist) in your area? Our school system requires minimum standards on testing but you can have the testing done on your own; I think sometimes that some of the school psychologists who work for the system have a vested interest in not necessarily finding gifted kids (i.e. they then have to provide services, which are expensive). A private provider might be able to provide insight into why he doesn't test higher (certainly sounds as though he should). I also don't know if there might be other tests which would give you a better perspective on his strengths and weaknesses (e.g. KeyMath3).

    Good luck. Sounds frustrating!

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