Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums THINKING BIG About Gifted Education Proposal: NASA Academy of the Physical Sciences

Inky,

I edited my Reply #78691. It now reads:


Steven A. Sylwester

How very convenient for you. Unfortunately, this part seems not to be true:
in that you've reached plenty of people who are in at least one of those groups here, and we do seem to need to be convinced.

A school is not a painting. The only way you can expect to put one together to your vision without negotiation, justification or compromise is by making your billions first, and then choosing to spend them this way. And even then, you have to convince the parents - the same parents who are reading you here.

In fact, you haven't yet made a serious attempt at an argument for why this school should meet the needs of its target children. It's teaching material normally taught to older people, fine - but the pace and depth of those courses will still be that designed for average college attenders, which will be too slow and too shallow for our children. There's more to providing suitable education for GT students than getting them to the same courses early. I repeat the question someone else asked, apart from your own daughters, have you talked to any?

There's also something jarring me to what you seem to be expecting in the students at NAPS. You talk about these students being in the 99th percentile, but also about them being "near genius" as though you could expect them to have no difficulty with anything you could throw at them. Top 1% is not the same as near genius! Not every student at that level even needs much differentiation compared with a normal good high school class, let alone the radical acceleration you're proposing. Yet you expect to recruit practically all of them (you say you want more than a third of a TAG group which is defined irrespective of subject strength as being for the top 3% - there will be some wriggle room as some students will be in the top 1% for maths and science without being in the top 3% overall, although you don't say how you'll identify them) For comparison, the Davidson Institute, which runs this forum, requires its scholars to be in the top 99.9th percentile.

The following excerpt is from the University of Oregon Course Catalog regarding a major in biology:
http://uocatalog.uoregon.edu/liberalarts/biology

Lower-Division Biology Sequences.

Students planning to major in biology or a related discipline may take either of the 200-level biology sequences: BI 211�214 or BI 251�253. Students should consult the department website or visit the advising center for up-to-date information about the sequences and for advice on which sequence is best for them.

To enter the general biology sequence, a student must have completed at least one term of college-level chemistry or the equivalent (Advanced Placement or International Baccalaureate examination credit). The course sequence is targeted toward students with an interest in whole-organism biology. For some science majors, three terms of general biology suffice. For biology majors, General Biology IV: Biochemistry and Genetics (BI 214) is required.

The three-term foundations sequence requires completion of a year of general chemistry and concurrent enrollment in or completion of the first term of organic chemistry. It is for students with an interest in processes and mechanisms at the cellular and molecular level. Students contemplating medical school or an emphasis in molecular genetics or biochemistry are advised to take this sequence. Because the sequence assumes familiarity with chemical concepts, most students should begin it fall term of the sophomore year, after completing the year of general chemistry with laboratories that is required of biology majors.

* * *

A NAPS graduate would be able to begin the three-term foundations sequence in biology fall term of the freshman year � fully one year ahead of what is possible for other students. As stated in the excerpt: "Students contemplating medical school or an emphasis in molecular genetics or biochemistry are advised to take this sequence."

* * *

Furthermore, another excerpt from the University of Oregon Course Catalog regarding a major in biology follows. I have noted "NAPS DONE" by those required courses which would have already been completed by a NAPS graduate who was a chemistry major while enrolled in NAPS.


Major Requirements

A major in biology or marine biology leads to a bachelor of science (B.S.) or to a bachelor of arts (B.A.) degree. The B.A. requires completion of the foreign-language requirement. Twenty-four credits of biology that are applied to the major must be taken at the University of Oregon (which includes the main campus, the Oregon Institute of Marine Biology in Charleston, the central Oregon campus in Bend, and university-approved overseas and exchange programs). Majors must either meet the major requirements in effect at the time they are accepted as majors or complete subsequent major requirements. Specific courses follow.

NAPS DONE >> 1. General Chemistry (CH 221, 222, 223) or Honors General Chemistry (CH 224H, 225H, 226H)

NAPS DONE >> 2. General Chemistry Laboratory (CH 227, 228, 229) or Advanced General Chemistry Laboratory (CH 237, 238, 239)

NAPS DONE >> 3. Mathematics, to include Calculus for the Biological Sciences I,II (MATH 246, 247) or Calculus I,II (MATH 251, 252) or equivalent; a course in statistics is recommended

NAPS DONE >> 4. General Physics (PHYS 201, 202, 203) or Foundations of Physics I (PHYS 251, 252, 253)

5. One of the introductory sequences: the four-term general biology sequence (BI 211�214) or the three-term foundations sequence (BI 251�253)

NAPS DONE >> 6. Organic chemistry sequence

NAPS DONE >> a. For the biology major, a minimum of two organic chemistry courses are required: Organic Chemistry I (CH 331) and either Organic Chemistry II (CH 335) (preferred) or Organic Chemistry III (CH 336)

NAPS DONE >> b. For students interested in graduate programs in medicine, dentistry, biomedicine, or allied health, three organic chemistry courses and two laboratories are required (CH 331, 335, 336, 337, 338).

c. Since many medical schools require upper-division genetics and/or biochemistry, Molecular Genetics (BI 320), Physiological Biochemistry (CH 360), or both are suggested. Students are urged to contact specific institutions to confirm admission requirements

* * *

http://nasa-academy-of-the-physical...11/first-model-university-of-oregon.html

JUNIOR YEAR: Chemistry Major
Fall Term Winter Term Spring Term
NAPS: Advanced Placement English Literature
NAPS: Advanced Placement Economics
Fall: Microeconomics
Winter: Macroeconomics
Spring: Game Theory
NAPS: Mathematics
UO: Organic Chemistry
Fall: I: CH 331 (4 credits)
Winter: II: CH 335 (4 credits)
Spring: III: CH 336 (4 credits)
Fall: Organic Chem Laboratory: CH 337 (3 credits)
Winter: Organic Chem Laboratory: CH 338 (3 credits)
Spring: Organic Analysis: CH 339 (4 credits)

SENIOR YEAR
Fall Term Winter Term Spring Term
UO: Calculus
Fall: I: MATH 251 (4 credits)
Winter: II: MATH 252 (4 credits)
Spring: III: MATH 253 (4 credits)
UO: Foundations of Physics I
Fall: PHYS 251 (4 credits)
Winter: PHYS 252 (4 credits)
Spring: PHYS 253 (4 credits)
NAPS: Colloquy: Morality, Ethics & Society: Science & Technology in the 21st Century
Fall: U.S. Constitution Amendment Proposal
Winter: World Treaty Proposal
Spring: Philosophy of Science and Technology Definition Statement

* * *

It seems to me that I have done a great big favor for those who want to major in biology at the university level in how I have designed the NAPS curriculum.

Steven A. Sylwester

ColinsMum,

NAPS is for very, very few people. The greater Eugene, Oregon, area that would feed The First Model at the University of Oregon has a population base of 337,870 people, and I target a NAPS enrollment of no more than 34 students per grade level. A major high school with an enrollment of 1,000 students might release just two or three sophomore students to NAPS per year � fewer than ten students total at the three NAPS grade levels combined. In some years, some major high schools might release no sophomore students to NAPS. I am talking about the very rare student � the student who by him/herself can raise the curve in an Advanced Placement class by ten points. Those students are out there, and their needs are not being taken care of by the available public high school curriculum.

Steven A. Sylwester

ColinsMum,

Please, ...


... you are an "I," not a "we." Long ago in difficult circumstances, I learned that those who claim to speak for everyone actually speak for no one other than themselves. There have been no votes taken here yet, and so there is no "we" that has spoken.

I want to create an opportunity for deserving young people who want it. I am concerned about parents. Consider the following excerpt from my proposal:
http://nasa-academy-of-the-physical...11/first-model-university-of-oregon.html

Finally, they will undergo an interview process to test their emotional maturity and their ability to handle stress in a university environment. Everything possible will be done to select for enrollment only those students who will thrive and succeed at NAPS.

* * *

In my opinion, most of that interview process should be conducted one-on-one between the prospective student and a NAPS representative without the parents of the prospective student in the room. Under no circumstances should any child be made to enroll in NAPS against his/her will. In the whole NAPS equation, parents are most to be feared.

Why? I very confidently predict that most NAPS graduates will receive a full-ride academic merit scholarship offer from almost any university they apply to. There is an enormous financial reward awaiting the average NAPS graduate at the end of their three year grind, and that reward will be mostly experienced by parents in the form of a free university education for their child. Consequently, many parents are to be feared in what I am proposing.

But, ColinsMum, you are welcome to keep your child away from it all. My genius children are now 21 and 23. Maybe my grandchildren will benefit someday, but not me and not my children � at least not directly. My NAPS proposal is in response to what I went through. Any American who imagines that public education will take care of the needs of their exceptionally gifted children by using the current models is full-blown delusional. Funding for TAG is evaporating. Hell, just call it gone!

ColinsMum, you wrote: "... the pace and depth of those courses will still be that designed for average college attenders, which will be too slow and too shallow for our children." Consider: almost all university professors have Ph.D. degrees and almost all high school teachers do not. I am talking University Calculus I, II, III; University Calculus-based Foundations of Physics I and II; University Organic Chemistry and Laboratory; mathematics as high as University Elementary Linear Algebra, which is beyond University Several-Variable Calculus I and II, and you are talking "too slow" and "too shallow." Are we on the same planet?

Steven A. Sylwester

I don't think you know much about math or science.

If these kids are that smart, then those math classes are not appropriate for more mathematically mature kids. I would expect to see classes on Analysis or Abstract Algebra as the first-year course followed by Statistics, then seminars at a graduate level on various topics. Things like Calculus and Linear Algebra could be covered in a Numeric Methods class that also introduces programming in C with the focus of the class being not applied math, but a topic in physical sciences. In fact, a seminar approach after 6 semesters of the basics would be best.

Most PG kids could start such a program as I outlined above when they are 14 or earlier. And after such a program they would more than likely enter industry or go into a Grad program rather than enter a normal college.

I taught myself to program when I was 12 and was working on chemical control software when by the time I was 16.

Austin,

You are missing the whole point of my NAPS proposal.

What you are recommending will never happen. Developing a unique curriculum for The Top One Percent as you suggest will require a separate dedicated faculty that will drive costs through the roof.

The only new curriculum element in NAPS is my Colloquy. All of the Advanced Placement courses are standardized, and all of the university courses are already being taught on the campuses of the 150 public research universities that would host NAPS across the nation. The AP courses would be NAPS-only, but there would be no sections of any of the university courses that would be dedicated only to the NASA Scholars. Instead, the NASA Scholars would fill the empty seats in the course sections already scheduled to be taught, and their fellow students in those classes would include regular university students.

The point is this: my NAPS proposal is a fill-the-empty-seats proposal. My argument in favor of NAPS in this regard is that it makes economic sense � a whole lot of good could be accomplished at very little cost.

Consider the following excerpt from my proposal:

http://nasa-academy-of-the-physical...11/first-model-university-of-oregon.html

NAPS focuses on the �foundations� courses in physics for its students for three reasons: 1) NASA Scholars are gifted; 2) the foundations courses are math-based at calculus and above, and therefore provide understandable applications in physics that make it easier to learn calculus; and 3) the foundations courses do not fill up.

NAPS is viable only if its cost of operation as a school is affordable to the state, and it is certainly affordable if its UO expense is largely invisible and essentially free. After the UO�s Fall Term 2008 registration was completed, the following spaces were still available: Organic Chemistry I � 133 out of 400; Organic Chemistry Laboratory � 42 out of 248; Foundations of Physics I � 13 out of 134; Foundations of Physics II � 11 out of 48; Computer Science I � 24 out of 110; Elements of Discrete Mathematics I � 8 out of 100; Calculus I � 52 out of 352; and Introduction to Differential Equations � 14 out of 72.

Remember, NAPS has a target enrollment of 34 students per grade level. If the UO�s Fall Term 2008 registration was usual, then only Foundations of Physics I and Elements of Discrete Mathematics I seem likely to be over-filled in future terms by enrollment from NAPS if another section is not added in each case. So, in the general case, NASA Scholars will simply fill available spaces that are currently going unfilled in courses that are being taught anyway, despite under-enrollment.

NAPS will teach AP Chemistry according to the UO model: in this case, a general lecture to all 34 students and an accompanying separate AP Chemistry laboratory class that has three sections, with a maximum enrollment of 12 students per section. At the UO, Organic Chemistry Laboratory (CH 337) sections have a maximum enrollment of 13 students each, and Advanced General Chemistry Laboratory (CH 237) sections have a maximum enrollment of 11 students each.

Excluding the UO faculty for the above-mentioned courses, NAPS will function with just four �high school� teachers: a teacher for AP Chemistry (who will also teach math), a teacher for basic computer programming and math through pre-calculus, a teacher for AP Economics and AP U.S. History, and a teacher for AP English Language and AP English Literature. NAPS will have no electives in its �high school� curriculum. Except that some students will be especially advanced in math and will take calculus as juniors, all NAPS classmates will take the same �high school� classes every year. As stated above, NAPS juniors will separate into three groups according their interests regarding their UO Duck Link classes.

It is very important to note that pushing enrollment above 34 NASA Scholars per grade level risks two bad outcomes: 1) having to have more than four �high school� teachers per NAPS, and 2) having to teach more than one section of the shared �high school� classes. An enrollment of 34 scholars per grade level is an outer limit that is doable only because it is reasonable to expect a well-behaved, productive classroom from 34 highly intelligent students who are motivated to be there. If any enrollment adjustment were made, it would be down to 24 scholars per grade level.

* * *

Steven A. Sylwester

DYS offers a unique approach. So, a unique approach does exist.

And as far as cost, that is really driven by salaries and overhead, not curriculum.

You claimed that your course selection was college level. Well, its not. Its offered at hundreds of schools nationwide.

If your proposal is not going to attract the PG/MG as DYS does and offers what local private, magnet and level III schools already do, then what is the purpose? Seems like a waste of money to me. For instance, in the DFW area, four schools with just 2% of the graduating Seniors produce over 50% of the National Merit Scholars. I don't see what your proposal offers that does not exist at those schools.

Is this school going to be launched into Orbit? I really do not understand the NASA angle.

DYS:
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27056.asp

Why are you opposed to spreading the wealth?

Are the four "Dallas/Fort Worth-area" schools "with just 2% of the graduating Seniors producing 50% of the National Merit Scholars" free public schools? The NAPS schools I propose are free public schools that generate at least two full years of college credit to its graduates.

NAPS would be nationwide in all 50 states at 150 sites with a standard shared curriculum, and a significant number of the classes would be taught by Ph.D. university professors in a university setting in which most of the classmates would be university students. There are many dumb university students, but dumb university students do not take full-year Calculus, full-year Organic Chemistry and Laboratory, and full-year Calculus-based Physics, or any courses above those levels. Those are the university classes that NAPS students would enroll in.

Yes, Calculus is taught in hundreds of high schools nationwide, but Organic Chemistry and Laboratory is taught in no public high schools in the U.S. that I am aware of. Part of my impetus for designing NAPS has to do with AP Chemistry. Universities do not recognize the laboratory work done in U.S. high schools during AP Chemistry to be sufficient preparation for Organic Chemistry. Even if a student scores a "5" on the national AP Chemistry test, which is the highest score possible, that student must take a full year of General Chemistry Lab at a university before he/she can enroll in Organic Chemistry. As a parent, I learned that lesson the hard way twice � and there is no getting around it in the current system. And so I created NAPS, which solves the problem.

Consider the following excerpt from my proposal:
http://nasa-academy-of-the-physical...11/first-model-university-of-oregon.html

The UO awards 12 credits and recognizes the equivalency of General Chemistry (CH 221, 222, 223) for all high school students who score a �4� or a �5� on the national AP Chemistry test. But the UO does not recognize the high school chemistry laboratory experience as being sufficient preparation for Organic Chemistry I (CH 331), and consequently requires all students who want to advance in chemistry to minimally take three terms of General Chemistry Laboratory (CH 227, 228, 229) before beginning the Organic Chemistry sequence. Therefore, the UO will provide university-level chemistry laboratory instruction to all NAPS sophomores in conjunction with their AP Chemistry class to qualify NAPS juniors to enroll in Organic Chemistry if they so choose.

As juniors, NAPS students will separate into three groups according to their interests. Those who are especially advanced in math will take the Foundations of Physics I sequence and the Calculus sequence throughout the school year [total UO credits per term: 8, 8, 8]. A second group will take Organic Chemistry I, II, III (CH 331, 335, 336); Organic Chemistry Laboratory (337, 338); and Organic Analysis (CH 339) [total UO credits per term: 7, 7, 8]. A third group will take Computer Science I, II, III and Elements of Discrete Mathematics I, II, III (MATH 231, 232, 233) [total UO credits per term: 8, 8, 8].

* * *

Why do you imagine that my "proposal is not going to attract the PG/MG as DYS does and offers what local private, magnet and level III schools already do"? I did not involve either one of my daughters in the Davidson Young Scholars program, and I did investigate it when I was searching for solutions for my oldest daughter when she was young. DYS is not a be-all end-all solution for everyone, nor will NAPS be that. Many students who could qualify for enrollment in NAPS would choose to instead attend their local high school for all sorts of good personal reasons, and I understand that fully, and it does not bother me in the least. I have designed NAPS only for those students who would want to attend it, and for no others.

In Eugene-Springfield, Oregon, where the University of Oregon is located, there are seven public high schools within three different school districts. The public high school that has the long-time reputation for being the best academic high school in the city has not offered AP Chemistry for several years now. As funding for public education gets axed time and time again in Oregon, what is disappearing are the AP classes.

The NASA angle is a clever way to avoid public hostilities toward smart kids. Please read the following linked section of my proposal for a detailed explanation:
http://nasa-academy-of-the-physical...9/11/making-it-happen-nasa-and-naps.html

Steven A. Sylwester

Mr. Sylwester.
The Nation needs such a program � pure and simple. Most important is that your proposal focuses resources on specific students that can help rebuild this Country. Keep in mind that the most successful people, in general, are those with moderately high IQ�s, have excellent work ethic, are capable of focusing their attention and are motivated. This program would serve the greatest number of highly functional people. For those few who are extremely talented and share similar attributes, this program would give them a sound foundation.

Rod