Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment bright or gifted?

I think that personality and drive prove a stronger need for differntation and acceleration than IQ, and a combination of the 2 would be the ideal measure.
There are several non-gifted kids at my school who need differntation, some more so than my 145 kid.

If we had to give Gifted a number, I would say that it should be measured by divations above the norm. And the norm should be calcualted per school.
In a school where the average IQ is 90, a kid who scores 125 is gifted, and well above his class mates. This kid will have different needs that of his peers and should get differntation and or acceleration. But, in a school where the average IQ is 125 the same kid would most likely have needs met within the regular classroom.



Sounds like segregation to me

That's about what I was going to say about everyone you know having IQs in the 120+ range !

That said, in re to the OP, I liked Floridama's explaination. Gifted is learning differently not just memorizing the steps and being a good student. I think that there is a lot of overlap btwn creative and gifted which may muddy the waters on those charts you mention. Perhaps many creative kids are gifted.

Children that are 1 SD below avg. need differentiation and I believe they need it on both ends. Children in the 115-140 could definitely benefit from differentiation. I was just talking with my friend the other day about her daughter. Her daughter is 5 and will be starting K in the fall. She was recently tested with a 130 IQ (had to get tested for speech) and she is doing some double digit addition already. She can read some words already, and will probably be reading more before school starts. She is incredible artistically as well. My DS5 who is PG was doing advanced math when he was her age (probably 5th grade at least) and reading at a 6th grade level at least as well as many other things. So clearly my DS needed differentiation. But that doesn't mean that this other girl won't need it too. When the teacher is teaching them numbers in K and a year later when they start basic addition she will probably be way past that and bored out of her mind. Anyhow, different differentiationed instruction, but still a need for it for both of them.

And while I don't want to give the non-english speaking parents comment much attention, I do want to say that they should all be part of the same class and they are by no means bringing other students down. Children pick up the English language quite quickly and they can be enriching other children's experiences in the classroom and teaching them things. They also are just as likely to be HG+ and need differentiation as well. Putting them in a seperate location would not be beneficial for anyone as you learn things more through exposure.

It was harsh, but I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it needed to be said. Many schools in the US purportedly put ESL kids into separate classes for their benefit, but it really is just a pretense for segregation. Often kids who speak fluent English are put in these classes simply because of their nationality or their parents' status as recent immigrants. And as a result ESL kids learn to speak English more slowly than they would otherwise (and sometimes not at all), simply because they aren't exposed to much English. My understanding is that it is pretty clear that an immersion classroom is the best place for ESL kids, that they catch up quickly, and that their presence has real benefits for the native English speaking kids as well.

I was really, truly shocked to hear the argument that this sort of thing could be a solution to the over-identification of gifted kids. Just, wow. All kids have the right to an appropriate education.

I'll tell you what happened to my son in first grade. The class ended up being comprised of about 50% ESL children. There are a fair number in the school, but I guess due to random chance his class just had a disproportionate number. Anyhow, these kids did not learn much of anything from the non-ESL students. The children are not babies and they separate themselves from one another. In almost all social situations, in the classroom and elsewhere, the students congregate with those who come from the same socioeconomic, racial and cultural background. Even my son has been ostracized a bit because we aren't caucasian, but we do know English. I didn't have the luxury of being able to get a formal education, but through self-study I made sure that I had at least a decent grasp of the English language.

From what my son told me and from what I observed the teacher had to give so much attention to the ESL kids that she didn't have much time to give to the students who were already doing alright. Now when you talk to the parents of the Caucasian Americans the kids are almost always reading above or even well above grade level. Are all these kids gifted!? No, of course not. To think so is illogical and gives the caucasian kids a sense that they are on a superior level relative to the hispanic kids. I am very opposed to this message at very impressionable ages.

I don't want my son to have to leave the classroom for some challenge. He should be able to be in a regular classroom and get taught a higher level. The ESL students aren't happy to be in a regular classroom where they can immerse...The don't simply immerse, they drown in discouragement.

Connie, I hate to say this, but I think it is very likely that your son's classroom wasn't disproportionate by chance. If it was 50% ESL, and the school has a much smaller percentage of ESL students, it was quite likely deliberate. At any rate, I think that your experience illustrates the problem of having special ESL classrooms. It does cause segregation. It does keep ESL (and sometimes fluently-English-speaking minority) students from getting the education they need. It is a form of institutionalized racism that keeps ESL and minority kids from having access to an appropriate education.

Regardless, from what you've written elsewhere, I think it is pretty clear that your son needs differentiated curriculum. Even if all the ESL students were removed from his classroom, he would not be a normal child in that classroom. He would not be a normal child in a gifted classroom, if he is working 6 grade levels ahead in math.

The ESL classrooms don't cause segregation. What I was trying to say was that the students segregate themselves anyway.

If you call ESL classrooms a form of institutionalized segregation then you could argue that any kind of special program is a form of segregation. Even all these gifted programs are a form of segregation if you think in those terms. But because people think of 'gifted' as a positive then it suddenly becomes desirable.

I've been in a situation where I didn't know English and I think that I'm in a position to know what's best for people in the same situation. I think that many people theorize from a position of idealism where they think that everyone should be mixed up together and somehow this is beneficial to all. Meanwhile you have major hypocrisy because while this is the policy most of the native English speaking caucasians want their kids separated out into the gifted programs. Ha, isn't this segregation! While they say that is is possible for anyone of any socioeconomic background or heritage to be gifted you know almost all the gifted kids are from one demographic. So they get their idealistic notions and policies to calm their consciences while they still condone segregation. Parfait.

I said institutionalized racism, because I believe that in most instances when these programs are in place it is not done for the benefit of the ESL students, but for the purpose of keeping minority students away from white kids. The same is mostly not true for gifted programs. Gifted programs, theoretically at least, meet a need of the students involved, as opposed to having isolation as the goal.


I appreciate that it must be very frustrating to be in your position, having struggled to teach yourself English and now having to deal with a school system which, from your descriptions, is highly segregated and does not meet the needs of your son. I do appreciate that. But that does not make your opinion on this subject infallible.

The thing that bothers me the most about your argument is not simply the fact that you want ESL students to have their own classroom. It could be possible that a school might have a separate classroom for ESL students that could benefit them and result in an easier transition into the normal classroom (though that is not the reality of how most of these programs work). What bothers me is that you want them out of your son's classroom because you somehow feel that they are making other kids look gifted. That, to me, is just absurd.

Oh my! Yes, IQ tests have changed and Dr. Ruf's estimates are based on WISC-IV and SB5. A 140 IQ is in the 99.9 percentile.

I have never asked my friends what their IQ scores are and not sure I would believe anyone who volunteers that info about themselves.

You should know that learning a language has nothing to do with intelligence.

Please keep the conversation civil and contact each other individually if you wish to continue a one-on-one discussion on this matter.

Thank you for your cooperation.