Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Young Scholars - whether to apply

Hello. My son is 8 years old and in second grade. I am considering applying for Young Scholars (assuming his scores come out in the appropriate range), but am not sure whether it would be reasonable to even try since he is more one-sided in his talents. He is very strong in math - it is always way too easy at school - even though the school has tried to make a number of accomodations, every teacher he has ever had has ended up saying they have never had a child even close to this advanced in math and have no idea how to teach him. However, his reading and writing are just a bit ahead for his age. He works in the higher groups for those, but is fine with those groups for now. I am in the process of having him tested for ADHD (brothers have it - he is more just spacey and tends to work slowly on things). The tester told me that he probably does have some level of ADHD - that may be part of the reason for his reading and writing not being as far ahead.

I don't know the exact scores yet. Here is what I have so far:

WISC scores were:

Verbal Comprehension 144
Perceptual Organization 145
Working Memory 120
Processing Speed 115
Full Scale 142

I believe GAI would be around 151-152 based on my estimates, but not sure. If anyone knows how to calculate that it would be great.

He took WJ. I do not have the scores for that, but got some feedback from the tester after the test. She said she thought math likely would be in the appropriate range. Reading will be lower. She said on the math, his speed was okay (around 5th grade level), but the other two portions were the highest she has ever seen (for a child around this age) and she specializes in testing gifted kids and has done it for a really long time.

Anyway, if anyone has any insight on whether Young Scholars ever accepts kids who are more one-sided in their talents it would be helpful and also on whether you think those WISC scores could be high enough given the lower reading scores it would be really helpful.

Thanks!

Thanks so much! Yes, I meant VCI and PRI. I was kind of guessing on GAI - thanks for letting me know 155 - that is a little higher than I thought. I think his math should be high enough. I guess we will see when she gives me the final score - she said 12th grade on two of the three parts of the math test, but I know that doesn't mean he is actually working at that grade level - hopefully it will amount to a high score though. Do you know if I could send in just WISC-IV and the math achievement scores or would I need to send the reading and writing scores also since they are all part of one test?

Thanks again for your help!

Yes, yes apply! YSP is particularly strong at 'getting' that these are unusal kids and score 'unusually.'

You son may be 2 months away from a huge 'growth spurt' in the reading area, or he may just be spiky. It is totally a myth that 'gifted=globally gifted.'

Enjoy,
Grinity

Yes! I agree with Dottie and Grinity! Definitely apply!

My son is also strong in math with weakness in reading. (with ASD diagnosis and ADHD suspected) He was recently accepted into DYS.

Good luck!

Hello again - I received a summary of my son's Woodcock-Johnson III scores. Just wanted to make sure it still makes sense to submit and to see if anyone has any further thoughts.

Broad Reading 111
Broad Math 165
Broad Writing 114

He also had particularly low scores on sound blending and auditory attention. He was being evaluated for ADHD - haven't had the parent meeting to go over details yet, but she did tell me that she believes he has ADHD. He is more of the off in his own world type and has some trouble getting things done in class (except math of course - but then he has yet to see any math in school that would be relevant for him). He prefers to work very slowly and carefully on things.

I mentioned above, but here are his WISC scores:

VCI 144
PRI 145
Working Memory 120
Processing Speed 115
Full Scale 142

Thanks so much for your help!

Anne4,
I would personally like to encourage you to apply to YSP. I don't know what they will make of those scores, but on the chance that they do accept - they have as good a chance of helping you figure it out as anyone does.

It's really hard to tell about ADHD, and you'll need a professional who 'gets' his wild far out Math talent, and is familiar with ADHD as well.

Have you explored the 'auditory processing' route? I'm wondering what he is hearing. Gifted kids can sometimes lipread without anyone teaching them or them even knowing that they are doing it.

(Don't want to scare you, but, that is one of those stories that haunt me personally. As DS13 says: If what I saw when I looked at a stop sign was the same color as what you saw when you looked at grass, and vice versa, would it matter? would we ever know?)

I love that he is a 'slowly and carefully' worker, and I hope they give him some subject acceleration in Math. I still think that his spike could still be 'right around the corner.'

Has he fallen in love with any books yet?
Does he like audio books?

Love and More Love -
Grinity

Hi Grinity,

Thanks for your thoughts! I have thought about auditory processing. He had speech issues as a preschooler - it seemed more like a fine motor coordination thing with his mouth than anything else. He passed all of the hearing tests fine. I took him to a friend of mine who does vision therapy and had him evaluated last year - she said that he had a couple of issues - can't remember the details - one was getting his eyes to refocus on something and getting them to work together. I watched her doing the testing and it was pretty obvious that it took him a really long time on that stuff. I never did the therapy - kept waiting for a time that was convenient to open up and never could decide if I really believed in it or not, but maybe it would be worth a shot.

He loved Magic Tree House books in first grade and read those all quickly. His favorites that he tends to read over and over again "Why Pi?" - something about applications of math to the real world historically - and "The Big Bang" - that one is so dense it is hard for me to even contemplate the issues it raises. I try to get him to read more fiction and things that others of his age might be more inclined to read - he read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and liked that one, but mostly likes series of books. He is reading some Pokemon ones now - kind of likes them. My older son had a big spike in reading towards the middle or end of second grade, so kind of thinking that might happen with this son also. My oldest is not a math guy though.

His school has tried to give him some exceleration with math, but even going up a couple of grades (they get the materials from higher grades and give them to him in second grade) does not help at all. His teacher taught sixth grade last year and said he feels pretty sure that my son already knows most of that as well, so they have kind of run out of ideas for him for elementary school and he is only in second grade. Hard for me to figure out what to do!

Thanks again!
Anne

This part here 'screams' Davidson YSP. Make sure that you highlight this part, and get the teacher who taught the 6th grade math to write a letter about how 'unusually gifted' he is.

There are no agreed upon definitions of MG/HG/PG, but here's my 'off the cuff' idea of how your child compares to other gifted kids. I'm out on a limb here, so if any families with 'Mathy' kids could add a comment and correct or support me a bit, please do.

An MG kid might need 3rd grade Math in 1st grade, but even if Math was his strongest subject, one would expect that the child would have to 'work' to stay up with the fastest 3rd graders.

An HG kid might be happy doing 6th grade math in 1st grade.

But being ready for 'beyond' 6th grade math in 1st grade/2nd grade - that really is unusual, even for Davidson YSP kids who are all 'PG' by Davidson's definition.

BTW, the 'obvious' choice for what to teach after 6th grade Math is (drumroll) Algebra. Obviously you don't have to rush, but that's the material I'd reach for to bring back topics from.

What kind of resources are available to teach Algebra?

from - http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/online_hs.htm

I'm also fascinated with
http://www.khanacademy.org/
totally free, and you can start with Pre-Algebra. Let me know if this helps anyone, ok?

Not free, but cheap and easy to monitor is Aleks.com
When we did this 5 years ago, it was terrific for giving problems and tracking what my son knew how to do, but not so good at explaination. My hope is that they have improved, or if not, one can supplement with Khan Academy or just googling the topic.

In my opinion it is worth the effort to apply.

I think it is also important to pursue the recommended therapies. Some will work, some won't. But when you find the right combination of approaches, it can make a great difference.

BTW my DYS completed high school Algebra I as a "second grader".

Let me stick my oar in (as parent of a mathy child and as a mathematician) and say that to people in the US school system Algebra may be the obvious place to go, but it is not actually where I'd be looking first, unless the child in question is especially interested in that area of maths, in which case of course follow his interests. I'd be far more inclined to go geometry, including both classic Euclidean proof stuff and more modern and way-out stuff like 4D polytopes, geometric approach to complex numbers, and off into topology. Also, logic, proof, probability... stuff that makes a change from things about numbers and near-numbers that they get stuffed with at school. Anne, if your DS hasn't already seen these fantastic Dimensions videos I thoroughly recommend them:
http://www.dimensions-math.org/Dim_E.htm
My DS also loves the Murderous Maths series, although it's possible they might already be a little young in style for your 8yo. (By which I mean, my 6yo finds their humour hilarious, but please don't tell me this is going to be his style for the next two years!)

FWIW my DS is not quite 6y2m and also has very little left to learn in 6th grade maths, I think (he'll finish ALEKS 5 tomorrow, and in looking ahead at the "new" topics in ALEKS 6, most are actually things he already knows, and he also knows a lot of maths that doesn't appear at this level). This is really still unusual in DYS? That shocks me, actually. Do you really have the impression that it's because something conceptual blocks children's progress, or is it just because most don't happen to go that way [e.g. you can't demonstrate that you can do calculations involving percentages if you've never met the word 'percentage', but would any 6yo DYS have any trouble after they'd been told what it meant? Is it GT denial to say that I doubt it?]