Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment achievement tests-- gifted in math

Hi! This is my first time to post, but I've spent many hours reading the messages here. Wow! I've learned a lot!

I've recently realized my 3rd grade son is gifted. Last month I was feeling frustrated with how he constantly complains about how much he hates math (math is Boooooriiiiiing!) when he's actually very good in math. I decided to step it up a notch to see if I could spark his interest. He still didn't seem challenged, so I stepped it up another notch. Then another. I started 8th grade pre-algebra a couple weeks ago-- he is whizzing through it, and finally seems to be having fun with math. We're homeschoolers, btw.

I'm standing here feeling dazed and confused and thinking-- what next? Algebra as an 8 year old? So, here I am doing internet research!

Okay... my question about achievement tests...

Money is very tight in our family. I am saving my pennies to have a professional administer the WISC IV to him. I know he also needs an achievement test. In terms of money, the Explore is the best bet for us. I looked at the practice tests and the math section wouldn't be an issue for him, but at this point there's no way he would do well on the other sections.

Do I understand the DYS qualifications correctly in that he needs 3 scores on the Explore (for us, composite + math + one other score) but if we do the WIAT II we can get by with just a Total Math score? If that's the case, perhaps I should be saving my pennies for the WIAT II as well and bypass the Explore.

Finally, one more question-- is it possible he's just good at math and not gifted? Reading all this gifted information seems really overwhelming, and part of me is thinking, "just put him back in 3rd grade math and forget you ever started down this road..."

welcome!

I'll leave the testing questions to the experts.

I'm curious how you skipped into pre-algebra. I"ve always had the same issue w/ my DS. He was in public school for K-2 and HS'd for 3rd and this year. I do skip ahead to dabble in linear equations which he gets and other fun math topics, but he still needs that solid foundation in computation (he is HATING 3digitx2digit multiplication right now). My son is a concept wise but sometimes hates the details. Was your son at a computation and that allowed you to skip so much computation?

Well my take is that he's gifted at math. Yes some kids are globally gifted (gifted in all areas) but I think many if not more kids are gifted in one area. I think you have non-gifted kids performing a grade above grade level b/c of interest and exposure to the topic, but 4-5 grade levels? I'm not sure about that. You have to look at him for each area. Particularly if you're HSing. Let him fly w/ math. If he's grade level for writing, he's grade level for writing. If he's 2yrs ahead in science, he's 2yrs ahead in science. If he's a year behind in spelling, meet him where he's at.

Oh and what pre-algebra program did you decide to use?

Also, how about a MOEMS problem solving book? Zaccaro books? So instead of heading into algebra, go deeper in problem solving?

Dazey

I recommend you get a copy of a book called Developing Math Talent by Susan Assouline & Ann Lupkowski-Shoplik. In Chapter 9 there are a number of case studies that will help with the gifted denial issues. Some of the key points are:
Parents are usually the first to recognize these talents
Diagnostic Testing-Prescriptive Instruction model helps
Math talented students benefit from an intellectual peer group

I've read that book and it was very helpful. I should read it again. I get caught in that gifted in math means fast computation. DS gets concepts easily. Can do multi-digit multiplication in 2 steps, but is getting tripped up on the standard algorithm. I think b/c he's bored w/ it and not giving it the attention it requires. So then I start thinking that's pretty avg in math.

Welcome slhogan! Glad you've found the right thing to engage your mathematical DS. I wonder whether you'd expand on your questions a bit - e.g. when you say "what next?" is it that you have concrete concerns about the order in which to do different kinds of maths with him, or is it that you have plenty of maths background yourself and can happily decide that kind of thing, once you've got over your shock at just how far ahead he is? One thing you might like to look at is lots of problem-solving stuff, e.g. an appropriate choice of problems from http://nrich.maths.org

The other thing I wondered is what you were hoping to get out of testing for DYS and DYS itself. If that whole process is going to be very expensive, and given that you're homeschooling anyway, i.e., don't (right now at least) need DYS help in advocating at school, is it going to give you value enough to be worth what it costs?

I don't know what you should do, but having a 7 year old homeschooled boy doing prealgebra this year, I can tell you what I've decided to do, in part, because of this article called The Calculus Trap.

First of all, we've chosen Math-U-See as our basic math program. I really like how it teaches. I like the sequence. I like the emphasis on place value. I like that it teaches why math works and not just how to do it. Concepts are usually taught at very small increments and I find myself doing extra explaining only to find out that what I explained is taught a few lessons down the road. The book was teaching the understanding component and I added in the shortcuts prematurely. That's ok; it works for my son.

However, Math-U-See is lacking on quality/difficult word problems and problem solving. So, I'm supplementing with Math Olympiad Contest Problems for Elementary and Middle School. The problems in this book are definitely challenging; thankfully, they all come with answers and complete solutions.

I'm also adding logic to our curriculum in the form of Perplexors. Rainbow Resource Center carries these. They have grid, Venn, and math ones. These help with critical thinking skills.

Finally, we'll be doing Math-U-See's algebra book after prealgebra. Once we are done with that, we'll go through algebra again using [url=http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Item.php?item_id=200]book. It has a problem solving emphasis and is for "outstanding math students" in grades 6-10. They recommended taking a regular algebra course first because my son is so young.

After that, we'll probably do Math-U-See in the first half of the year and the corresponding Art of Problem solving in the second half of the year. That's far enough ahead that it isn't set in stone.

Have fun!

Oh, I taught my son binary just for fun. From there, he figured out how to convert between decimal and any other base on his own. So, that could be a fun side lesson.

Yep, it's time for you to re-read Developing Math Talent. See page 212: Students Extremely Talented in Mathematics May Make Computation Mistakes. Think of it like this: we know Grinity is a talented writer even if she makes typing and spelling mistakes. Hope that doesn't offend you Grinity. Or this: can we say Frank McCourt wasn't a talented writer because he didn't publish a book until he was 66? Talk about slow!


P.S. Also read DMT page 245. There's a great quote by Sheffield.

Hi again! I appreciate the replies!


To skip him up I gave him random pages from 6th grade books for a few days. He easily made 100% on everything and was still acting bored, so, I tried 7th grade material and had the same reaction. So, I moved on to 8th grade-- he's still easily making 100% on everything but he is actually challenged. The first couple of days with pre-algebra he pounded his head on the table and whined that his head hurt while he worked. I told him it was no big deal-- we can back off and do something easier, but he insisted on finishing the work and afterwards told me it was "kinda fun". He doesn't do the head pounding thing anymore and looks forward to math for the first time in his life. I think his head hurt because he had never actually had to think about math before; it was a new feeling for him.

Skipping him up meant that he missed the introduction to some basic concepts, but he seems to be doing alright. For example, last week he was doing fraction/decimal/percent conversions such as convert 7/9 into a percent. He hadn't done any division with decimals before-- only long divison with remainders. It didn't cause a problem though. He set up the division problem, wrote the 7 as 7.00, and then proceded to divide it by 9. Since he had never before encountered decimals in division, I asked him how he knew to use a decimal. He just looked at me like I was dumb and said, "7/9 is less than 1 so of course the decimal answer has to be less than 1". We also never covered lessons that introduced negative numbers was or how to add/subtract them, but he recently completed some lengthy order-of-operation problems that resulted in negative numbers, and he got them all correct and didn't seem alarmed. My point here is that skipping him up meant that he missed some background lessons (like using decimals in division or learning what a negative number is) but it didn't stop him from being successful with more complex math problems that required that skill.

We are not using a specific curriculum right now. We had been going back and forth with Singapore Math and Horizon. I'm just using random things right now (different textbooks, online worksheets, etc) as I determine where he is with math. The pre-algebra is engaging him, but it's still coming easily. I think he'll have all the concepts down in a month or so and be ready for algebra. At that point I will get him a set curriculum and work through it sequentially. Right now, he keeps his sister's algebra book next to him while he works his pre-algebra. It's a motivator for him to finish pre-algebra-- all those algebra problems seem like candy to him and he can't wait to dive in and learn the secret of what all those letters mean!

I think I know the order to present the math (that information is available easily enough). It all just seems... obscene, might be the right word-- obscene that he's working so far ahead. By "what next", I mean should I really let him do college math early? Do I enroll him in math competitions (most of them see to be for middle school and up)? Send him to summer programs? I keep thinking I'm an imposter or something, just deluding myself that he's good at math. Like a stage mom who is convinced her kid is a good singer when in reality she is just average and the mom is deluded.

That is why the DYS program appeals to me. From what I understand, if he qualifies we'll have a mentor who can advise us in what do with him. Looking around on the internet this past month, I get the impression that math giftedness is pretty common and the math world is full of intense competition. If he really does have a gift with math, I assume he may want to go into a profession that uses math. It appears these fields (and the universities that train for them) are highly competitive, and I wish I had some hand-holding to know how to best prepare him for it. I'm not a math person myself, and I have always found math-whizzes intimidating. Just looking at those websites makes me feel dumb. As a homeschooling parent, how am I supposed to guide my son through that maze?

Also, summer programs, college math courses, fancy calculators, math games & books are expensive! There's no way I can afford all that. I can teach him math through algebra, but we will have to find a tutor after that point. I thought if he qualifies for DYS then we might qualify for their financial assistance.

Finally, even though it is expensive, I would like him to take an IQ test because it would give me concrete data that he is indeed gifted. Then perhaps I can stop feeling like that deluded stage mom. Skipping from 3rd grade math to pre-algebra was very easy for him-- perhaps everyone is capable of it except no one has the courage to try it. Perhaps he is not gifted in math-- he simply has a mom who was willing to let him do what everyone else is secretly capable of.

Wow! Great article! It addressed exactly what I was worried about, but I just didn't know how to put it into words. I will look into all your recommendations. I appreciate it very much!

BTW, does your son belong to a math club or have any same-age math peers? If so, how did you locate them?