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Hi,

Have any of you tried the Stanford EPGY Language Arts courses for young children? There are two available for children reading at the third grade level and above (CTY doesn't offer language arts for young children). If so, what did you think?

Thank you!

Questions

Q-

I have heard mixed reviews on the lower level English courses from EPGY. The high school level classes are consistently rated very highly by parents and kids. My own kids have only used EPGY English starting at high school, so I have no personal experience with the lower level stuff.

hth-

What do you think about the lower level math at EPGY? Would you recommend Singapore math over EPGY for a 7/8 year old? EPGY wanted her to start in second grade, they didn't seem open to skipping up so we didn't follow through.

Thanks,
Incog

When DS was six he did EPGY grade 3/4 math. It is a very thorough program, but the interface is old and not very snazzy. It also has a lot of bugs. I'm glad that we tried it, but I decided not to spend the big bucks for it again at the elementary level. You might instead consider Aleks Math or Larson Math if you want an online program (not sure if Larson is still around) these two programs are considerably less expensive.

DS did eventually go back to EPGY for algebra. He also did Singapore math and a year of Larson. I really like Singapore and feel it has a lot to offer for a fantastic price. One other plug for a new favorite: We discovered Life Of Fred math just a few months ago. (They don't have an affiliate program, BTW, so I don 't get any compensation for recommending them!) My dd and ds both found it fun and amusing, though dd only read the story in the Trig book and did not attempt any of the problems. I reviewed them here: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art25135.asp

hth-

We adore Singapore Math! The focus on "mental" math and heuristics instead of learning some "one right way" to get the answer is great for GT kids, I think. I agree that it's a wonderful value for the (very little) money. Get the "Intensive Practice" workbooks instead of the regular ones, though. They're much better than the regular ones at "deeper, not just faster," even for basic arithmetic, I think.

Singapore is the only math we've tried, though, so I wouldn't say I'm an expert by any means...

Kriston-

If you found something that works, why bother changing? I think I just tend to get curious about different options and want to see how they work for my kids.

Yes, I totally understand about the curiosity. We're relative newbies to all this, so we haven't really had a lot of time to experiment.

But from what we've done so far (1A-2B), I doubt we will go with anything but Singapore for the exact reason you name: it's working too well for us to switch. It's meeting DS6's needs and is easy for me to use. It's cheap, it's good, and it's laid out in a sensible fashion. I can't imagine going with anything else, barring some unforeseen problem with the curriculum somewhere down the road.

And I think you're the one who suggested it to me, Lorel. So I have you to thank!

Thanks Kriston, Lorel.
I like the tip about the intensive workbooks. Originally, EPGY looked good, I'm not the math expert in the family, and I was kind of hoping I could just set her in front of the computer and let her go at it.
Probably wishful thinking.
It is kind of expensive, though, so if you all like the other programs, I'll probably give one of them a whirl first.

Our guy definitely needs the computer and the snazzy interface. No way is he slogging through workbooks, which limits our options. Looking for fun computerized reading/phonics reinforcement, if any of you have suggestions (that's why I was asking about EPGY). Thank you!

We're not doing any packaged reading/phonics curriculum, so I don't have any advice for you there, Questions. Sorry! Have you checked out the recommendations on Lorel's site and on Hoagies?

Thank you, Kriston. I'll take a look. It's all new to me and no one has offered us any suggestions. I'm learning a lot here, though, and now have access to both EPGY and CTY, so at least there are some options. He does love that math course, though. It's actually quite entertaining and well done.

Questions-

Which math course is your son enjoying? I missed it if you already mentioned it somewhere.

My kids all took to reading like ducks to water, so we never used any formal program for reading. Writing is a whole other beast though, and we could certainly stand to do more in that area. So far I have resisted paying for any formal program, other than grammar and vocabulary workbooks. Both my school age kids can write beautifully when they are motivated, as in preparation for a homeschool group report. My horse crazy daughter finds a way to weave horses into every state and country we study, and my son enjoys finding esoteric trivia to spotlight. But both are less comfortable with the art then I would like, and it would be nice to close the gap a bit between their input and output. My goal this year is to get my 11 year old really typing and then I will probably sign him up for an online writing course.

I wish I had a clue about online language arts for younger kids. Sorry, Q!

Thanks, Lorel.

He's enjoying Elementary Problem Solving 1 at CTY. I'm sure the children of most posting here are way beyond it, but it's very well done. There is a tutorial, a practice and a workout area. All involve sound and animations with cute made up creatures (and unlike so many of you, my son loves animals and books with mice as the heroes - he is most definitely 7!). The graphics are very clean and colorful. He hates to write - and that includes writing for math, although he'll tolerate that - don't have to write too much to write a few numbers down. The quiz, however, is a plain old paper and pencil quiz, which then has to be transfered to the answer sheet online. It would be easier for him to just do it online, but I guess it's good practice. He's never had written tests in school other than weekly spelling tests.

Since the public school isn't challenging him, I'm thinking I'll make it all up at home. I wonder if he would write in a colorful workbook - if you have any suggestions. When I was a kid, I loved filling in answers in workbooks. It gave me a sense of accomplishment. He finds it tedious, and difficult because it's writing.

So any suggestions of anything to make him want to read more, I'd love it. (He CAN read - just doesn't want to, which means that he's not getting the practice he needs to become fluent. Too much work when he can be read to - and his comprehension was tested as over 13 years beyond his age, which is probably a big source of his unwillingness to read b/c it means he only gets his information s-l-o-w-l-y and with difficulty when he reads himself).

Thank you!

ps - in response to one of the earlier posts, I checked out many of the links on your site last night, but almost all of them refer to workbook based programs. I think we need a little more excitement so that he's learning without even realizing he's learning - which is how he picks up everything anyway. Thanks again.

Thank you, kcab - that's exactly what I was looking for. He loved Reader Rabbit Toddler so long ago - I'll check into both. He definitely needs the basic phonics practice, and I believe we even have Zoombinis at home which he hasn't used in a couple of years. Worth another look. Thanks!

In terms or writing assignments, we don't use any workbooks or curriculum. I kind of wing it. Not sure that's so great, but I am more at easy with the verbal side of things.
We did a character development "assignment".
The idea was to invent the characters in the story before even thinking out the story.
It was very open ended and fun.
DD7 started writing about crayon people. For example: Sky Blue was a girl crayon about her age,, etc. She mapped out all the characters and named them. Then she would write a little here and there. She kept going back to each crayon and adding personality traits and interweaving their "stories".
She never organized it into an actual story, but it's a work in process.
She really enjoyed it and I think it's a good excersice to cultivate her writing "voice" which seems to be what the school is focusing on in terms or writing.

Questions wrote:
ps - in response to one of the earlier posts, I checked out many of the links on your site last night, but almost all of them refer to workbook based programs. I think we need a little more excitement so that he's learning without even realizing he's learning - which is how he picks up everything anyway. Thanks again.

The character development project was more like a game. For a child who doesn't like to do extensive writing, you could have them dictate, to a recorder or to you.

Incog

Well, I just started looking at EPGY and they are adding Language Arts and Writing for 6th grade. I might need to use this for my daughter next year.
Anyone familiar with that course?

Also, does anyone have experience with jhu-cty Crafting the Essay course? I've been eyeing this for a while but have forgotten to ask this board about it.

Well, after my meeting yesterday in which I was informed that the teachers are teaching the curriculum and can't vary from it, I signed him up for the epgy language arts/reading courses (it's currently buy one, get one free). He's happy in school, he loves his teachers, and I don't want to jeopardize that. As Trinity mentioned in an earlier thread, it's more important to undo the damage from his last school. And he wants to do all these distance learning courses. So I'll let you know what I think of the lower level epgy language arts courses in January. Take care, everyone,

Questions

Questions:
Is he going to do that course while in school, during regular LA class?
(yes, I see that they are 2 for 1, and looking at the rubrick I kind of like it)

Questions-

Wow! I've never heard about a deal like that at EPGY! It sounds too good to pass up. I look forward to hearing your opinions.

Ania, no, they don't vary from the curriculum period. And I don't think they do anything for gifted kids until fourth grade at least. In 3rd grade they do their first standardized testing. I can't believe what I've read on this forum about other school districts and schools. We could have avoided so much if he had been in the right school from the start. Oh well. At least he's happy again.

Questions,
If your son is in fact doing this course at home and in school sits in regular LA class, I would fight, fight,fight.
Believe me that it is much easier to do what you are doing when the child is young, since they generally have more free time after school. Comes middle school or HS it will be very difficult to have them do things like that at home.
I know that in the school my kids are going to, they would be allowed to work on the computer on their own during class time AS LONG AS THE COURSE THEY ARE WORKING ON ALIGNS WITH STATE CURRICULUM.

Ania, thanks. This is exactly what I'm thinking. For now, he doesn't seem to mind the repetition, it helps him with his speed, and he feels like a success. Quite frankly, they do so little, I have no idea how long they spend on math or reading, and I wonder if it would even be enough time to cover anything on a distance learning course. After vacation, however, I plan to re-assess the situation. My bigger concern is what happens next year and the year after. If he's lucky enough to be accepted into DYS, I expect it will get the school's attention. If not, it will be a huge struggle. But what I'm thinking would be best for him is exactly what you suggest - stay in the public school and when they do math, let him go on the computer and do his own math. It certainly won't be possible in this school district for him to sit in on a different grade's classes - they're clustered in different buildings a busride away. And all the private schools around here are handwriting centric. He has some catching up to do before he can re-enter that world. And believe me, he'd like nothing better than to be home schooled. The psychologist who evaluated him agreed. So maybe ultimately, he ends up with a half and half type situation.

Questions -
I love the DYS program, but no, the school didn't care a bit - still maintained that they have handfuls just like him. Some schools are flexible, and can "see" our kids, other school are teachable, like Dotties, and some are just not going to go there. I wish it was more obvious in advance which the school was going to be.

In the end, one can increase one's ability to notice, learn as much as possible, and take it one year at a time. School that offer partial homeschooling are doing a wonderful service to children with special needs. Best Wishes - Trinity

Agreed, Trinity. Our first choice would be a school that could meet all of DS6's needs, but a strong second choice would be a partial home-schooling situation. I wish our school would go for that, but they won't.

*sigh*

As much as "our " school is flexible (and I really think we are blessed), it will not allow partial homeschooling/partial enrollment.
It has to do with funding.
That is why we are persuing individualized education during regular school hours and school sees little or no problem with that.

We are heavily involved, and I guess they feel more secure that I won't come out with some elaborate plan and then leave it for the school to quide my kids through it. They know that my kids will get all the support they need from us DURING SCHOOL HOURS.

Example: Last year while my daughter was in 4th grade, math level in her class was worst than terrible. It was just a cruel joke. I learned about Aleks on this site and suggested it to DD's teacher. Her and P picked out 4 other kids (out of 50), who were also bored to death in that math class, and they bought Aleks for those 5. Decision was made that the kids will be working on Aleks 4 times a week during regular math class. Kids needed supervision, and school could not provie an adult to stay with them . Teacher approached us, the parents of those 5 kids, asking for help. Another mom and I volunteered. But since this other mom was not very reliable and did not keep her promise, I ended up supervising them all four days. Was it easy ? - NO! It was during 4th period, so totally midday and I had to make a special trip to the school each of those days (about 12 min. drive each way). It was insane, to tell you the truth, but it did help my daughter tremendously, she became much, much better in math and it all happened during school hours, which for me was priceless!I did not have to "unschool" her at home any more!
But there was also another benefit to this whole insanity - the school saw me as a very involved parent, and by helping my D I helped 4 other kids. So now when we are bringing the possibility of other online programs to the table , they know that I will be there should help become necessary.
(thank goodness my work schedule allowed for all that insanity)

(((applause Ania!!)))
Wow - Good for you!
Trin

Okay, thought I'd report back on EPGY language arts. DS started in January with a virtual class on transitive and intransitive verbs. I was sure he'd hate it - looked dry and static to me, compared to the entertaining and colorful Elementary Problem Solving Math course at CTY. Well, surprise to me, DS loves it for two reasons - 1) he loves technology and LOVED participating in the class over the computer using headphones and a microphone; and 2) the EPGY computer course tracks his progress and he can see that the course starts at grade 3 and he is already at 3.12 after only a couple of sessions. (Note that he thought it was boring and objected to it when he started, but at the end of the 20 minutes when he saw his progress graph, he got excited - just as the tutor promised.)

One big difference b/n our current CTY and EPGY experience is that the EPGY tutor is involved and active. She emails to ask if anyone has questions, organized virtual classes, and emailed us initially to find out why DS wasn't doing the EPGY program (i.e., she had checked his progess and hadn't seen more than 3 minutes of work). It's probably just luck of the draw, but we never hear from DS's CTY tutor (nor do we really need to), but in her few emails with comments on his quizzes and tests, she's had incorrect info (such as explanation of a right answer from someone else's course in her email to DS).

I had signed DS up as a stealth method to get him to practice his reading. Rearranging words into short sentences in response to questions makes him read in a non-threatening manner (only a few words at a time on the page). The computer work has a set of problems interspersed with short lectures on things like proper nouns, topics versus main ideas, sentence structure, verbs, etc. The sentences and questions are read and then he has to either highlight all the nouns or arrange a list of words sorted by type (e.g., prepositions, pronouns, verbs, etc.) into a sentence. The only frustrating thing is that you have to move the word onto a small blue highlighted area that is hard to hit. If you don't do it right, the words get reversed, which has been a bit frustrating for him. So for now, he tells me what to click on and where to move things and I can deal with the frustration when it doesn't go where I intended.

I'd say that the EPGY LAW isn't for everyone, but it works for us. Also, since DS had trouble with writing initially, figure it's not too early to understand the rules of grammar.

And re: the RWL (books course), DS likes that, too. After reading the books, you answer questions online about the book, characters, timeline, moral of the story, etc. Our issue with this one is that his comprehension outpaces his reading ability. The tutor suggested that we read a more difficult book with me reading a page to his reading a paragraph and then working up to his reading more. One benefit is that he likes to do what the tutor says, and is already reading a page for every page I read of what they consider a fifth grade book (based on lexiles).

So in the end, I'm very pleased because it's having the desired effect for DS. Probably not the course for most, but if your child loves technology and responds to charting his progress, and wouldn't be doing language arts on his or her own, give it a try. (And I believe they do have a free add/drop period so you can test it out).

Thanks for the update, Q! It sounds as if he is really digging in! What type of books do they read for the reading course?

Wow Q - that sounds something my ds would think is really neat too. Let us know if it loses it's novelty!

Thank you for the update. It sounds like something my son could like. He likes games where he can see his progress. It could be a very good option if we end up homeschooling.


Does it mean that a child can take it before entering the 3rd grade? Do they require any tests to prove that he reads on the 3rd grade level. It would be nice if DS could take it at the 2nd half of 1st grade or in the 2nd grade.

LMom, the tutor told me there are 150 children in the course, some as young as four. My DS7 is in second grade. There was no qualifying necessary once he was in epgy. And quite frankly, he was basically refusing to read at all, so I thought he wasn't even at a 3rd grade level. Figured I could read to him, and then he could read and answer the computer questions, as his comprehension is years ahead of his reading. Turns out he's reading at a much higher level, but the tutor did suggest some strategies to get him to start reading chapter books on his own.

I am very surprised DS likes it so much, but I think the big attraction for him is that it already has him a year ahead of his grade. I am very happy with stanford epgy and think I may use them for his next math course instead of cty.

Lorel,

They get to choose the books they want to read from the following list. And I understand that the list will be expanded shortly.

Here's the link for the elementary level reading course:
https://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/english/RWL/

That's an impressive list. Lots of good reads with plenty to discuss. It's also interesting to me to see the great variety in reading level: books that my DD read at three like Catwings and Cam Jansen along with some much juicier stuff like Tuck Everlasting and Wrinkle in Time. I'm all for choice, and it seems that this program allows the individual student to really make the course their own.