Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Recommended Resources 5 Levels of Gifted by Ruf

I've just found this on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Levels-Gifted...d=I2IAMRH5V9VZE1&colid=2VFRWK3NAVO5Y

The description says "Formerly titled Losing Our Minds...."
I wonder if it is un updated version.

yes it is, at least this is what I remember from the last newsletter I received.

Isa,
Do you know if Ruf added updated data (new children, IQ and Achievement scores etc...) to this version? If I remember correctly, her last book( Losong Our Minds) had WISC III data, but not WISC IV.

It has the same number of pages as the previous version and I haven't seen anything that indicates that it is anything more than a title change.
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From Great Potential Press:
Coming Sept. 15th! Formerly titled Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind, this award-winning book describes differences within the gifted population. A large sample of children are classified into five levels of giftedness based on behaviors and developmental milestones, as well as test data. This gives parents and educators a reference guide to compare with their own gifted children or students. After a child�s intellectual level is estimated, the book provides different educational approaches and practical advice, including how to find the best type of school for each level.
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I've seen the "older" version on sale so now may be the right time to grab it if you don't already own it. It is a wonderful book!!

From the 'News from Educational Options':
When naming Dr. Ruf's book back in 2005, the title Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind seemed very topical. And yet it was not very descriptive of its contents, which describe the behaviors and abilities of gifted children in the spectrum between bright to profoundly gifted and the educational needs for each level. Therefore the publisher and author decided to reissue this book with a new name and a new cover. The new title is 5 Levels of Gifted: School Issues and Educational Options.
The newly reformatted books will be available around the middle of September, and we will have new links to 5 Levels of Gifted in the September issue of this newsletter.

I really wish they would address the WISCIV and SBV data. The psych did in his webinar but it would be nice to see it written out in a book.

Hi! This is my first post, so I am not caught up on all that is going on for this forum, but I saw the questions about my re-titled book and have the answers.

The content has not been changed (yet). The test scores given are not updated, but I still give tests all the time and study the issues related to the results. I have retested many of the kids in the book at no further charge to their families so that I can see how they do on newer tests. As with all retesting, scores are rarely exactly the same, but with few exceptions, you can safely compare the old WISC-III to the newer WISC-IV and the SB5. The old SBIV wasn't used very much but is on the same scale, as well. So, you can still trust the published scores of the kids in the book compared to kids now who are tested on the WISC-IV and SB5. Professional interpretation is still very important, though.

CogATs and OLSATs are still on the same scales now as before, too, and you can use them. Remember that the Slossen and SBLM are both on a different scale and scores are relatively to considerably inflated compared to the other standardized tests. The scales also go higher for the Woodcock-Johnson, so higher scores don't mean quite the same when you compare.

Hope this helps. Glad so many of you liked the book already. Thank you!

Sincerely,
Deborah Ruf

Dr. Ruf,

Thank you for stopping by! And thank you for the information on your newly titled book.

I know that many here have had questions when it comes to relating their newer scores to the existing literature. For example, if an article is saying that a kid with an IQ over 180 is likely to encounter certain types of difficulties in school, how does that relate to a score of 140-150 on the SBV? Since the newer tests don't have those "out there" scores, it is hard to really understand where your particular child fits in with the literature based on the SB-LM.

(I also sent you a PM; it is the flashing envelope icon.)

Thanks again for your information, and welcome!

Thanks for posting, and thanks for writing the book. It's what got me over my "gifted denial" and made me realize why my usually happy boy was so miserable in an undifferentiated classroom with no accomodations. The case studies were very helpful to me.

Many blessings upon you for all that you do for gifted kids!

Dr Ruf,

Thanks for dropping by and for the book!! It has helped us a lot in anticipating what to expect next.

Dr. Ruf,

Thank you for answering the questions about your re-titled book. The information on scores of old vs newer tests is very helpful.
I'm glad you've stopped by. welcome!

Wow! A "celebrity" in our midst! Have you seen the Intel commercial about their "rock stars" featuring the guy who invented the USB? I sorta feel the same way.

Dr. Ruf- It is a phenomenal book and really helped my fam understand the human element of all the numbers that we had been trying to digest. THANK YOU!!

Since I started us off on the shameless gushing , I'd like to redirect attention to SPG's question:


There! Now I feel less guilty.

Love it!

What a treat to log in and find that Dr. Ruf has posted! Just want to say I, too, am one of the parents that scratched their heads when it came to my then infant and why she was so different. It was thanks to this board and their recommendation of your book that made me open my eyes. I have said it many times, but reading your book was like reading about my DD. She is a poster child for all the bullet points to watch for in a younger child. I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to clarify the title change and for being such a pillar in the gifted community.

Okay, a 140 on the SB5 will generally translate to at least a 165 to 170 on the SBLM (and other tests even older with a similar scale). It depends on which subtests the child is strong or weak at. High fluid reasoning and vocabulary boost your score more than other subtests on the SBLM. A 150 is extremely, extremely rare on the SB5 (or WISC-IV) and would generally translate into over 200 on the SBLM. Think of it this way, between IQs of about 85 to 115, the old test and the new tests (and this includes the school-given CogAT and OLSAT) pretty much overlap. Scores mean about the same. As you move away from the middle of 100 IQ, past the first standard deviation (85 or 115) each point means more difference in ability compared to the old SBLM. This means that the difference in ability between IQs of 95 to 105 really is about 10 points. But, the difference between IQs of 105 and 115 is much larger, more significant. Each 10 points on this scale is a larger difference in actual ability. The difference between a child with a 135 or a 145 is huge! The 135 child could finish typical elementary school in two or fewer years while the 145+ child could finish in less than half a year if given the chance. The reason is that the 145 child has a brain that was able to absorb more from his or her environment both before and after entering school -- so they already are almost done with anything that would be presented in elementary school.

I'd better get back to my regular work now, but I recommend curious readers go to my website where I have tons of free information available. I'm pretty sure I've written all of this down somewhere before. The point is that the standardized tests keep being normed and rewritten to reflect the times, what the current crop of kids would know about. The score ranges remain the same and mean the same. Yes, there is some "float" as a test ages, but that is primarily because lots of people find out what's on them and turn the problems and activities into "thinking skills" practice. Thus, more kids are already familiar with -- and good at -- the test items and score higher. Whew! Too much information.

Sincerely,
Deborah Ruf

Not at all...I like information!

Thank you.

Yes, very interesting!

Dr. Ruf - What is your website?

Dr. Ruf ... thank you so much for that informative post. How does the GAI on the WISCIV factor into what you're saying? Could you replace the IQ numbers you quoted w/ GAI as long as there were no LDs causing the disparity?

Dr. Ruf, thank you for clearing things up for me! So glad you had time to drop by.

For anyone who hasn't found it yet, here is Dr. Ruf's website:

Educational Options

Ha, beat you by 12 seconds!

Uh-oh. Now what!?

I'm wondering the same thing. I'm never sure if I can substitute GAI for FSIQ when I'm reading recommendations.

And yes, thank you Dr. Ruf! I really appreciate you taking the time to visit us and address some of our questions. (I'm feeling a little star-struck, lol.)

I was in awe already reading your levels of giftedness with my oldest, who took the older tests and consulting with her psychologist this spring over the new results. Now, we just got our twins preliminary scores back, new test, and after reading the above...I'm just going to go stick my head back in the sand for the weekend...maybe longer...

Thank you Dr. Ruf

Thank you for sharing your insight! Folks on this Board love data but are often baffled by the meaning of the data (as am I) so we love to receive any feedback from a pro.

great thread. i am just curious if anyone knows out there if, in general, WISC IV scores and WPPSI scores are interchangable when it comes to statements made about comparing WISC-IV scores to old SB-LM scores.

Hi Dr. Ruf - so great to see you here! I've always wondered about your statement above. I mean,from reading your book, I estimate DS13 is probably a level 3 kind of guy - and he scored well enough to make the YSP cutoff, but he wasn't ready to do many of the elementary school tasks more than a year or two before his agemates, in our local 'somewhat above average' district.

Things like telling time, learning to read, small motor coordination for pencil holding, and the dreaded 5 paragraph essay all came within a year or two of his agemates - sometimes ahead of them and sometimes behind them! So I've always wondered what exactly you mean by the '135 could finish in 2 years' statement. Sure, if we started at age 8, he could have it all done by age 10, but at age 7 the '5 paragraph essay' just didn't seem to be in him. Isn't there some physical maturation that is needed for parts of finishing elementary school?

Of course in whatever he did, he was clearly 'different' - using abstract thinking way before peers, and rescuing teachers during class discussion. Even now in 9th grade at age 13 taking all honors classes, he sees that his well organized, hard working, high achieving, classmates don't get the symbolism in the assigned reading. (Today's was Plato's Allegory of the Cave - in English)

Anyway, I just ask because I find everything else in your book to be crystal clear, and so it really stands out to me that part I just can't wrap my head around. Maybe also because it stokes my 'Is he really 2E?' worries.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

This thread has been so helpful that I've forwarded pieces of it to my mom. As a kid who was ID'd PG in the late 70s with a child now who is HG+ it's always been weird that the scores didn't line up and couldn't really be compared. I really appreciate being able to explain to my parents that 140 is the new 170!

CAMom - I had the same conversation with my DH. People think 145 is barely gifted lol. Ugh nope! LOL!

I don't know much about these tests, and now I'm confused and want to understand this better. So if anyone can clarify this for me, I'd really appreciate it.

When Dr. Ruf compared the SBV and WISC-IV to the old SBLM is that without the extended norms? If you have an extended score, would that match up with the SBLM more closely?

I know without the extended scores, you can't tell if a 145 is a 145 or possibly/likely higher because of ceiling issues. So it may really be in the 170's. Without extended scoring, you just can't tell. My dd had a score in the high 150's and I have a really hard time believing that it could really be in the 200's on the old scale. With the extended scores, it went up, but only to the 170's, no where near the 200 mentioned.

I guess it reaches a certain point where it doesn't really matter, she's really out there either way. I'm just curious because I happen to know my parents' IQs (both around 150) on the SB-LM and I think it's interesting to compare.

Dear Sitting Pretty:

I love that Intel commercial! Thanks so much for the kind words.

Deborah Ruf

WPPSI scores are somewhat inflated compared to WISC-IV scores. Part of the reason for this is that many very bright kids are at an advantage compared to the norm groups when they take either tests before they are six or seven years old. It is easier to score above 150 on the WPPSI, too. So, no, you can't really compare them although they are certainly in the "ball park."

thank you dr. ruf..
irene

Dear Grinity:
It is always helpful to me to find out what hadn't been clear to my readers. Thank you for expressing it so clearly for me. I am talking about information and understanding, not small muscle control. I am definitely not talking about handwriting -- or any writing at all - for the typical EG/PG little boy, either! I am talking about concepts, understanding, conversation, and absorbing of the material. I should add that I don't recommend radical acceleration except carefully by some subjects, primarily math. I recommend ability grouping as classroom of choice (rare to find, of course) because the natural immaturities and physical realities make it incredibly problematic to move little kids up too fast to work with more physically mature children. This is one of the reasons Leta Hollingworth talked about how the worst times for PG kids are the school years leading up to age ten. After age ten, the physical issues of handwriting, for example, are no longer a big deal or something that holds the child back.

Just so you know, while I love sharing my information and ideas, I really don't spend a lot of time on any lists or social networks due to lack of time. Please don't be offended if I don't continue to check back:-)

Regards,
Deborah

Yes, I was wondering this too...did Dr. Ruf comment on this, I just skimmed back through and did not see a comment.
Dr. Ruf, if you do have time for this one, that would be great, thanks!

You said 140 on SB5 is more like 165-170 on SBLM. If you also meant that about the WISC IV, is that FSIQ only or would GAI line up in a similar way?

Dear Ruby:

I'm curious as to which test your daughter took and how old she was at the time. I always, always look at Developmental Milestones before I estimate score comparisons, too. Suffice it to say, though, that you are right ... it really doesn't matter the precise score is at this point and at this level. As weird as it must feel, you probably need to accept that your dd is highly unusually gifted.

I am going to be beta testing a new online "screening" for intellectual levels soon and people on this list may enjoy doing it to help us out and get free information of this type.

Someone please become our (my) liaison through my real email address because I cannot keep jumping in here (I have no self-control when it comes to this stuff; I love it!) Contact me through my assistants at dr.ruf@educationaloptions.com if you want to participate in the Levels online beta test.

It's been a pleasure.

Deborah Ruf

Oh, the beta test opportunity sounds very good, thank you. I don't think anyone here will be offended if you are unable to check back. Thanks for the posts you have made

..which makes it even more aggravating that handwriting is one of the things that caused our public HG+ school to decline my YS DS5. (I will stop letting this annoy me eventually... maybe. lol.)

I prefer not to think about what Dr. Ruf says his SB-V score correlates to on the older tests.

The GAI takes out the timed, more physical aspects of the WISC-IV. The WISC is usually the test of choice for school systems because it helps educators know who is having processing - either physical or intellectual - weaknesses that make it hard for the student to show what he or she knows and what the child might need some therapy or special provisions to deal with. In other words, if a highly gifted child scores within the average (normal) range on those parts, it is simply normal. At the same time, it can pull down the intellectual score, which is why the GAI was devised. Some HG+ kids are also high on those GAI-omitted subtests, though, and they will indeed have an edge over those who aren't, e.g. they can press a buzzer faster on Jeopardy:-) So, I tell my clients that Abbreviated Battery scores on the SB5 or the GAI on the WISC-IV are helpful for underscoring the intellectual "essence" of a child, but the un-prorated scores help us to understand "holes" in the profile, places where we are sometimes surprised that our brilliant child can't do it or performs less well than expected.

It is complex. What really matters is whether or not the person who evaluated your child can help you to understand and offer appropriate support for him or her. Ultimately, scores are not the issue. They are merely samples - samplings - of how your child reasons and thinks. The goal, after all, is to do what we can to facilitate the child's growing into the fulfilled, independent, emotionally sound person he or she was designed to be. When my children were younger, I focused on scores, too. It is natural, I think, to do so. But eventually, as they grew and matured and did what they wanted to do, I finally learned what it a joy it is to simply watch what they do, who they are, and where they are going still. Getting the scores right ended up not to make much difference at all.

Dr. Ruf, thank you so much for that passage. You really put things into perspective for me and that helps me to just relax and enjoy our fabulous children.

Yes, great points, thanks again!! It *is* complex!!

Dear Dr. Ruf,

will be English language required? I do speak English but DD speaks very little. If it is a non-verbal test I may sign up

Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge with us Dr. Ruf. I wish I'd understood the difference between the SBLM scores and WISC IV before DD was tested. I couldn't figure out why she scored "so low" compared to my SBLM number. I'm going to add this to our quotations thread because it was beautiful and I want to revisit it from time to time.

Thank you so much for posting this Dr. Ruf. I have pounded my head against a wall too many times trying to figure out how to get his intellectual needs met when my DS7 hates to write.

Thank you so much for taking time to "visit" us here. Come back as often as you can, specifically in a few months (or next) when it is too cold to do anything else.

Holy Cow.... I'd take a late night of postings with Dr. Ruff over a night out with (insert star of choice). Losing our Minds brought us the bit of sanity we needed to find a voice for advocacy. That "it" wasn't just in our heads. What a treat. God bless you for the work, the research, you've done to advance this area.

This is a link that equates scores from the different tests. Hope this helps.

http://www.hoagiesgifted.com/highly_profoundly.htm

Has anyone heard more about the Levels online beta test? Did I miss out?

I volunteered, but I haven't heard anything yet. Maybe it's just not ready?

I think she is still working on it. I suspect she will find many a volunteer from this board to test it. PM her if you are interested.

Now is a good time to join OGTOC (free webinar and discount on book):

As I am forever the pincher of pennies, I just ordered Ruf's "5-Levels" from Amazon for $16.47 (34% off) and, because I needed another book anyhow, I also got free shipping.

Hello, I have volunteered to assist Dr. Ruf.

I have just received some information from Dr. Ruf about the new online �screening� for intellectual levels.

Dr. Ruf�s assistant Kathy will be directly contacting those who have volunteered to be beta tested.

The testing will be limited to people who have already been tested. This is being done in order to validate the tools effectiveness.

The tool, once it becomes available will be very inexpensive.

The goal is to give parents a head start on learning all that they can about what their children need so they don�t waste precious time once school starts.

Another goal is to give families a tool to get the schools to sit up and take notice and be aware that kids enter school gifted.

Presently there are enough volunteers.

For those who wish to keep up on the product development, you can sign-up for the free e-newsletter that comes out monthly via email. Simply go to the DITD website and sign up. http://news.ditd.org/signup/eNews_SignUp.html

What does it mean already been tested? Does that mean she tested these children before? Has she already told the people they are getting to participate? I emailed her my interest already. My DS9 was given the WWJ III test - does that qualify?

I think that already been tested means having an been assessed,(IQ and Achievement) not nescesicarily by Dr. R.

Yes, Grinity is correct. The beta testers will be for those for whom already have some standardized or IQ result.

onthegomom -- The tool itself is being verified; hence an ability range of beta testers would be something that would be considered in selecting a particular tester. Once, the tool becomes available it will be inexpensive.

Dr. Ruf's free Webinar on Oct. 8 http://www.giftedonlineconferences.com/ is available to everyone, not just OGTOC members, and Dr. Ruf explains what to expect in the second quote below:

(i) For those who are keeping track of Dr. Ruf�s beta testing: Her team is moving closer to being ready for the volunteers. At first there will be only a few for each level. It is expected that the number of volunteers will increase as the beta testing progresses.

(ii) Last week�s Webinar at OGTOC was well attended. However, a copy of the Webinar was not successfully created. Presently there is no additional Webinar planned.

Does anybody know when will the new book be available?

Hi -

I registered, but did not attend. Does that mean there is no recorded version to go back to?

Thanks.

EW

note: I have not had a chance to email the organizers, so I am asking here. Thanks in advance

If anyone took notes on this webinar, would you please pass them on?

On the webinar page there is a power point presentation that you can download. Without the transcript, some of it isn't really clear, but most of it is pretty informative. I'm also disappointed that the transcript wasn't able to be created, since I wasn't able to attend live!

thank you

Ok; I was finally accepted as a member.:) But I cannot find the powerpoint. grrr. Please help.

I have a copy of the powerpoint presentation - is there some way I can attach it?

If you got it off their website, can you just copy the html address on here? Thank you!

Mom0405- when you log into the "Voxwire Web Conference" website, it's at the bottom left of the screen, under the 'Fileshare' heading.