Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment So do ALL GT kids have lower WMI and PSI?

bronxmom - try not to equate the tutoring that goes on by the hothousers with what your child needs. You have a kid with special educational needs. If he's not getting the work ethic from school, then I think you've got to do something too. I know there are a few afterschoolers here who can give you good advice. Good luck!

(ps - i stole some definitions on wmi and psi and put them on the sticky post - i can never find those definitions or remember them. Is there an equivalent with the SB-V?)

I have started to change my views on "hothousing". I used to think it was crazy to subject your child to tutoring and tons of after school academic work but as my kids get older my views are changing. I still think kids need TONS of free play time but I also think that as they move to 1st, 2nd grades and up they need instruction. The school simply does not have the time or the staff to provide kids with individualized teaching. If you want your kids to continue developing their skills and stretching themselves they seem to need after school instruction. Just my opinion. I'm still trying to find my with these kids!

My 10 yr old son has never had an IQ test so I don't know about PSI but I think my kid with motor dyspraxia and lower than average visual motor integration ability might not do as well on this if it requires good fine motor skills and speed.

I thought my son might be gifted in math when he was doing some multiplication in kindergarten and was doing math with negative numbers right before he turned 5 and he came up with his own way of doing subtraction that didn't involve regrouping, like 24-17 he would say 4-7 is a negative 3 and 20-10 is 10 and -3 and 10 is 7. When he took the WIAT the month he turned 7 it appeared that he was grade levels ahead of where he should have been even though all he did for math was play online games and he had read a math dictionary. We had only used a Singapore math workbook before the test and I think it was 2A or 2B but I don't think it covered anything at the 4th grade level so I didn't know how he scored at a 4th grade level on the test. The educational psychologist who tested him said he refused to use scratch paper and would only do mental math. He said he thought if he had used scratch paper he might have tested even higher.

But my son never wanted to practice math. He said math was useful but he didn't particularly like it. He didn't know why anyone would want to do math when there is much more interesting science and history and vocabulary to learn. When I could get him to do math I had to be his scribe if I wanted him to do more than 2 or 3 problems. His handwriting issues caused trouble with long division and multi-digit multiplication and sometimes his 2's looked like 5's and his 9's were backwards. I think a lot of his frustration with math had to do with these handwriting issues, but I only rarely let him use a calculator.

I didn't let him use a calculator because I was afraid he would stop working on number writing. At 8 I told him he would have to do his own writing and if he wrote a number backwards or if his 0 looked like it might possibly be a six, he practiced writing that number. He absolutely hated math for a while, but his number writing and ability to keep columns straight is getting better and he got in the habit of looking at his answer and making sure it looked right. We sometimes battled over the way he found the answers. He could come up with answers with less writing than I did. Like when he solves percent problems using easy algebra equations he says he can see the problem in his head and doesn't need to write it out. I did start letting him use a calculator for some things. If I let him use the calculator he seems to like math a lot more.

Since he always liked to do a lot of mental math instead of writing, he uses aaamath.com to practice things like converting fractions to mixed numbers quickly. Since there is a clock on it he can easily see if he is increasing his speed.

Ok, thanks to you wonderful people, I just had an HaHa moment...while in the shower lol.

I recall when DS was in PS 2nd grade last year, he said, "Billy is getting smarter b/c he can now do his math facts in 3minutes." So he definitely equates smart with being faster. I recall then saying that many mathematicians are not fast at computation b/c I didn't want him to think that kids that aren't as fast, aren't smart. He definitely has shut down in all areas since January after realizing he lost a lot of his times tables and it was taking effort to do 2-digitx2digit or 3digitx2digit problems.


As far as ASing. It really depends on the kid. We have always had math as a part of life, and science as a part of life. It's who we are (several Ph.Ds in science in the family). Also, our district's math program is not great and since DS wants a career in science (yes, he might change his mind but he might not, I never did change my mind), he needs a strong math foundation. I used living math until K/1 when he complained of math being way too easy and wanting more challenge and asked me to teach him. So we've done Rightstart A/B, C, and are now finishing up level D. These programs generally take 1-1.5yrs to complete - it's very conceptual. He typically does each level in about 6months time. We did 2-4 lessons per day of Level D while HSing to get him to the right level.....when we hit the right level and it now required a smidgeon of effort, that's when he shut down. This is a valuable life lesson for him.

Now his younger brother was even more mathy. He started adding and subtracting mentally just before and after 2yrs old. I started Rightstart with him at 4yrs old. He did level A, and has just finished level B as a 5yr old. Each level taking him only about 5months to do. The challenge level has been PERFECT! neither too hard or too little. I never really felt like I *taught* DS8 any math, I went through the motions. At times I feel like I'm teaching DS5, and I have to remind myself, that he is learning work ethic. He might think the first 3 problems are hard, and then it clicks and sails through all the rest. I soooo regret listening to those that told me not to afterschool DS8 b/c he'd be bored in school. I didn't, and he was bored anyway. SO over the 3yrs, his brain muscles atrophied. I'm now trying to build those up again w/ HSing.

Granted, I never forced them to do it. It took a backseat to homework. now if he didn't want to do math b/c he'd prefer to sit and play computer games for an hour, that didn't fly. But lessons were only 10-15min so I figure, that's doable.

Chemistry and physics... well the kids don't consider that schooling.

parents don't think twice about having little Bobby doing soccer 2 days/week, football 2days/week, and hockey on the weekends. But teach your kid something academic at home and eyebrows are raised.

He absolutely does have a work ethic; concerning things that engage him. Big difference. If you told me he spends most of the day at Waldorf rolling around on the floor, then maybe, I'd be worried.

Here's a good example. DD9 has WMI=98% and Processing Speed=99% and FSIQ=99.9%
She doesn't like to memorize things unless she deems it worthy and I mean, can connect it to something she uses. She had no interest in memorizing multiplication facts and I just assumed it was too difficult. Then she became interested in prime numbers and playing with factors. To me it seemed that she instantly knew all the facts overnight. In reality she then deemed the process worthy and *opened her mind* to memorizing. I have noticed that when she is not interested in learning something, she can literally close her mind to it and then it *does* become difficult or slow or impossible to learn. KWIM?

The great thing is that kids are still so flexible! Not like crotchety old me! It took a relatively short time into dual enrollment that this *mental stubborness*, I guess I'd call it, began to melt away.

As parenting goes, I think we have to really be on guard here. I had no idea how often she was *closing* her mind until I started working with her at home. Unfortunately, I really think this would have become an automatic pattern after awhile had it gone unchecked. I'm guessing the seed of underachievement had been planted far earlier than I would have imagined.

Incogneato....thanks for your post!!! You know, you may be right, at least about my DS. He can DEFINITELY close his mind to something and there is no opening. He closed his mind to homework and we were done. Nothing worked. He saw no point in it, felt like he spent his whole day at school and didn't need to come home and do more busy work. he was done. Is this just stubbornness? Most would say beat it out of him, or give him even more busy work, or bribe him or punish him or take away privileges.

From what I've observed with my own, Dazey, it's not stubborness. It's emotionbased, but not conscious, totally.

We have to remember that they are just kids! I don't think that we *really* see the purposefull defiance thing until puberty. And at age 2/3

The thing that chills me the most is that I observed the behavior to be almost automatic and self protective.

This is not the case with all gifted kids! Of course! But it's how my girls react in an environment that is not condusive to how the learn, how fast they learn. It's part of how they are wired.

Other kids have all kinds of other issues. I think schools need to be far more flexible with families. I love that our principal is backing us with dual enrollment. He's the bomb!

Yes, it never seemed purposeful, it was like he just couldn't bring himself to do it. When I gave up and told him not to do his homework, he'd cry and cry about he had to do his homework. Yet 30min later, he'd still be just sitting there staring at the paper. I also notice that he can't get his worksheets done but if we play a game using multi facts, he's fast. Oh and get this, he's faster with division facts than he is w/ multi facts - how is that possible? LOL.

Thanks for the discussion, you've given me lots to think about.

DD10 had a 47 point difference with VCI (high) and PSI (low). In hindsight it makes perfect sense since she is slow but accurate with math. Just like others have described their children, she is very methodical but sloooow when doing even the most simple math and this used to frustrate me to no end.

In 1st-4th grade she would not do well on timed tests no matter how she studied. This year (she skipped 5th grade math and is in 6th grade gifted math), her teacher did multiplication timed tests and the first test was 47%, ouch! She was spending too much time on each calculation, erase and rewrite numbers, fix her ponytail etc. when there really isn't time for that. We went over several strategies and practiced at home, and now she is 100% on timed tests. In the end, I don't think her processing speed is any different, but she has strategies to overcome it. It doesn't make her any less gifted in math, but some teachers put so much emphasis in fast counting that these kids don't have a chance to shine.

Jen

Hi G3 ((waving wildly))
I haven't read this whole thread yet, so appologies if I'm repeating, but here's my take.

Folks (like me) with more average Working Memory, need to practice, practice, practice so that the information they are handling is truly into long term memory, and nice and compact so that it takes up less room when being used by the working memory. An example of this is how when one is at a new workplace, it takes a while before the routines are 'down' enough that one doesn't have to look up their boss's extention every single time, and then complicated tasks can be done more rapidly and easily.

Folks (like me) with super-fast processing speed, may be moving stuff into Long Term memory in what looks like an instant to an outsider. My example of this was sitting in high school classrooms and opening up my ears and just by consentrating I could 'hear the material' and 'relate it to what it already knew' and 'file it well enough that I wouldn't have to study for the test' IF the topic was interesting and abstract enough, such as English, and sometimes history. Of course with History I'd have to go back and memorize the relavant dates and names, but getting the main point was shipped directly to Long Term Parking while the lecture was going on.

Of course, teaching multiplication when it was hard enough to be fun was probably also a very good thing. One of DS's teachers said to me once: 'When stuff is so easy to learn, one doesn't have to put much attention on it while learning, and is more at risk for forgetting.' My hunch is that your 4 year old was quite fasinated by '8x8' at the time, and might have appeared to need more drill if they tried to learn this for the first time in 3rd grade.

Does this make sense with what you are seeing?

Love and More Love,
Grinity