Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy WPPSI-III - Are results accurate?

Thanks Dottie, I appreciate the comments.

That's the spirit Zia's Mom!

Next question is - what kind of achievement test. The individually administered ones that are usually given with the IQ test have one type of drawback, and the group ones given at school have another type of drawback. Short answer - use the ones from the school. Here's why:

Tests such as Woodck-Johnson Achievement don't really give placement information. The problem with WJ achievement, is that they only ask a few questions from each level. The other problem is that the grade level equavalent that they give you, amount to something like: The children who would do as well as your child on this first grade test are in the 5th grade. It doesn't mean your child could do well on 5th grade work, only that they did very well indeed on the first grade material. ((Dottie help me if I'm off on this, ok?))


Talk to your school and see what they would want for a placement test. If there is "end of year" 1st grade material they can test him on, or see the work he does at home in his own handwriting that is likely to carry more weight. Now perhaps you can get the school to test him using whatever standardized test they use for 2nd graders, then they can see your child more clearly. Our school uses the ERBs, which are common for private schools. What are the potential problems with the ERBs and other group standardised tests?
1) if they are created for age mates, the may score poorly due to:
a) fell asleep
b) didn't settle down and take it seriously
c) overthinking the whole thing "It can't be this simple, there must be a trick."
2) if they are above level, (this is the best) the child with perfectionism issues may freak out that there are math symbols that they haven't seen before. If a parent explaines that the test is for many different ages of kid and has stuff that the child couldn't possibly know, and that they are supposed to guess, this may help. If the parent afterschool in advance (the dreaded hothoused child) this will make it easier for the school to recognise what's in front of them. I do reccomend this hot housing if:
a) time permits
b) it's fun for all involved
because it helps the school understand what they have. Even my wonderful new school didn't seem to understand the difference between missing easy Math questions because he had never seen the Metric System before and missing hard Math questions because he wasn't ready to learn Algebra quite yet. You can't count on the school really looking at the wrong answers and trying to understand where the child went wrong. The school wants "correct" answers to simplify their decision making. That's why the best placement is to give real grade level work and see if the child knows it or can learn it easily.

Remember that you can start first grade in September, and go to Second grade in October or November. He can take some classes with the first grade and some with second. He can do mornings in 2nd and afternoons in first. It only matters that he is getting his needs met 60% of the time, and that you are working towards a better fit. If he goes off to school glowing with happiness, well you know that something good is happening there.

((Ramble Alert:)) I was so pleased to see that after the grade skip, the end of year ERB testing revealed that DS was comfortably over the 50% score for kids in private school, but not "ceilinged out" by any means. So the idea is that if the teachers forget, or don't know, that he is gradeskipped, then they will "feel" like they have a socially immature kid who can easily get "B" if he follows directions, and if he streches himself, then he should be able to get "A"s in all his subjects. This is exactly what DH, DS and I want! It's not perfect, and DS will likely spoil the illusion from time to time by carrying around books like "The Universe in a Nutshell," (he looks at the pictures, and reads some of it) but I am so grateful to have it! It is good enough, and that is wonderful.

Sorry for the long post, but ((cheers!! The crowd goes wild)) good for you for being willing to accept the social put downs in order to do what is right for your child!

We dodge that "what grade is he in" questions all the time:
Other Mom: "So what grade is he in?"
Me: "Have you seen that new Simpson's Movie? I never laughed so hard."
Other Mom: "I can't believe they showed Bart's ....."

so you see, no need to answer friendly questions you don't want to answer. The weirdest was when a new friend cornered me and said that I just "had" to get my DS tested because he was seriously precosious. That I just "had" to do something for him because he wasn't getting challenged as a 5th grader in her son's very fine prep school. She was having middle-of-the-nights worry about my kid! I hadn't shared much of our struggle, but then I did, and we both cried and it was very nice, and it really helped me have the nerve to ask for the gradeskip. To me that is the most amazing, when the Mom of a same-age bright kid will say, "Your child is much different than mine, you must do something for him!" I know for some of the parents here, there kids collect lots of notice for being "smart" but somehow my DS only strikes most normal folks as "hard to understand." My friends who are gifted get it right away, but lots of people don't. Very strange.

Ok, now I have really really gone on long enough.
Best Wishes,
Trinity

Thanks Dottie!
Trin

Finger Licken' Good Points, CFK! (DS and DH are big KFC fans.)
Even when things went badly for my DS11 in school, he often learned important lessons that I wouldn't have figured out how to provide him with an opportunity to learn. He started playing Trombone, as a 4th grader, and loved the chance to work with a group of kids. Unfortunatly, for us, the emotional price tag at the public school was too high, so now we have the pain in the pocket at private school.

Wow are you lucky that the one who want's to grade leap and bound is the older of the two! Nice how that worked out. Have you bumped into any ideas for "gap year" programs for your DS10 when he finishes high school level education? There is a email list about early college on the YSP program that might be helpful for you if you can get in to YSP. One of our local friends does college classes and middle and high school classes all mixed together. Yes, his mom and grandma do lots of the driving, but he seems happy. When his mom was introducing herself to a teen, I overheard her say, "So, what gradeS are you in?" as naturally as you could want. I've also heard stories of a boy who went to Community College during Middle school, and then started High School with his age mates, taking a lot of electives. He didn't say so, but I got the distinct impression that he had become intersted in exploring dating. I think that what is so wonderful about parenting these kids it that once they set their mind to something...step back and enjoy the view.

Smiles,
Trinity

Wow - that sounds wonderful! I'll bet that they will even let him take EPGY online high school from the school building so he can still do art and music during the day. Terrific that your employer pays for private schooling - I wish more did. Some high schools are more rigerous than community college classes. Perhaps by the time your DS10 gets through the 10th grade some new opportunities and interests will have developed.

Interesting that your private school only goes up to 10th grade, is that common in your area? I've never seen it.
Smiles,
Trin

These types of questions would probably be better received from a member. I have emailed questions to the DI before, and their reply is simply that they have determined that these are the kids they want to serve. They don't really give me an explanation.

Cathy

Need advice on combatting the socialization argument for radical grade acceleration!!

As I mentioned in my earlier post, we went ahead and gave our soon to be 5 year old a second achievement test (the first was 6 months ago)- we gave him the WIAT II - (the psychologist's suggestion)
The test results more than supported our intuition that our child needs to be in at least second grade to be academically challenged.
We feel comfortable making most all arguments accept the social ones although he is a social animal and is comfortable in most all social situations.

We hear so much about bullying. Is this a real concern?
Our son has been playing on the chess circuit for the past 6 months and spends lots of time with older children. They are all so respectful and kind to him. Is this just chess kids? Am I naive on this one?

Has anyone had their child accelerated academically but taken out of the classroom when doing sports, music, etc with other children?

What are some practical ways to address the handwriting issue? Has anyone successfully convinced the school to let the child type?

Hi Zia's Mom,
So many ideas in one little post. I'll try to take them all in, but you may want to repost several smaller ideas, ok?

Need advice on combatting the socialization argument for radical grade acceleration!!

***Is anyone making the socialization argument at this time? It�s pretty clear from M. Gross�s work that for kids who need radicle acceleration, that RA is their only hope of normal, for the individual child, socialization. PG kids have an �alternate path of development� � normal, but different from the norm. ((That�s a Trinity-ism!)) They are many ages at the same time.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, we went ahead and gave our soon to be 5 year old a second achievement test (the first was 6 months ago)- we gave him the WIAT II - (the psychologist's suggestion)
The test results more than supported our intuition that our child needs to be in at least second grade to be academically challenged.

***What a relief to have the numbers and your experience of your child, �line up.� I hope you are going ahead with your application to YSP.

We feel comfortable making most all arguments accept the social ones although he is a social animal and is comfortable in most all social situations.

***I think that the best position to take is that you are the parents, and will continue to monitor his social growth, and be responsible for that part of his life. Really, for many, many, PG children, if their educational needs aren�t being met, then they are going to be too unhappy to do much social growth. So it�s not that you are sacrificing one for the other, it�s that you are trying to ensure that your son�s educational needs are met in school so that he can �be himself� and play after school. Really we are all humans, trying to make decisions that will have outcomes that none of us will be in control of. All we can do is deal with the matters at hand, and be willing to change if corrections are needed. Still you are the parents, and have to be the ones to be responsible for his Character Development.

We hear so much about bullying. Is this a real concern?

***Bullying can happen anywhere, with any group of people. I have no reason to think that it would be better or worse with his agemates, age+1 year kids, age+2 year kids, teachers, parents, sibling� What makes the difference is how the other humans deal with it. Bullying doesn�t have to be tolerated, and I would look for a school with a clear and successful bullying policy.
As an aside � My DS complains that his school is full of �goody2shoes� who won�t let kids get away with playing games during class, or anything else, and that they hand out detention for stupid stuff, like wearing white socks on �Formal Dress Friday� when they are supposed to wear dark socks. I was so happy to hear this. I hope it continues. We cheered last year when he came home with his first detention notification, and it was for wearing white socks on Friday. My kid needs to understand that no shenanigans will be tolerated, and he needs clear guidance on what the rules are. I hope this helps create an atmosphere were Bullying is going to be discouraged. The best way to know is to ask a few kids who attend the school.



Our son has been playing on the chess circuit for the past 6 months and spends lots of time with older children. They are all so respectful and kind to him. Is this just chess kids? Am I naive on this one?

***Yes, It would be Na�ve to judge one group of kids based on another group.

Has anyone had their child accelerated academically but taken out of the classroom when doing sports, music, etc with other children?

***Certainly it�s a good idea to do afterschool sports and/or religious or scouts with agemates. Many kids have their �specials� with agemates, or whatever group best fits their schedule and their skills. Karen Roger�s Re-forming Gifted Education is the must read for the nuts and bolts of acceleration. Think �dual-citizenship� or �multiple radical subject accelerations.�

What are some practical ways to address the handwriting issue? Has anyone successfully convinced the school to let the child type?

***This is a wonderful topic, and deserves it�s own thread. I�ll start one, ok?
I�m so excited for you. I agree with Dottie, that it doesn�t have to be right now, or all at once. The best is to have a school community that is willing to �get it right� for your child. In the end, homeschooling, or partial homeschooling may still be the best alternative.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Thanks, Dottie! That does help.

Cathy

Zia�s mom,

Almost five years and starting 2nd grade is defiantly a hard sell.

What does your son�s pre-school teacher think would be an appropriate placement? IF, his past teacher supports the radical acceleration, you might ask for a recommendation.

Is he offered 1st grade placement at the private gifted school that you mentioned earlier?
Are there criteria for admittance that ensure the other children are also some level of gifted? If so, I would imagine the first grade curriculum is already minimally at a 2nd grade level. Will they offer subject acceleration in addition to gifted 1st grade placement?

As others have stated, given his age, and required skills such as handwriting, you may wish to proceed in increments. I would definitely suggest the next skip occur before 5th grade if possible.