Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Dr. Ruff, schools and help

Firstly I hope that this in the right section. This forum has great information!

I posted a week ago about my DS who is 4, and received some great replies. So I bought and read the Dr. Ruff book (I can�t get myself past the �exceptional� bit in Gross� title yet�) as recommended. I think that he is in Level 4 going by milestones. But I have issues with some of it; he doesn�t read for pleasure i.e he won�t pick up a book and read it. He will read with me and to me but hasn�t got that insatiable bit yet. He�s not that interested in science, he doesn�t ask continuous questions about things like going from �why do we put petrol in a car?� to combustion for example. But he does ask questions about things that I don�t think are typical of a 4yr old; �why do we have eye lashes?� �what is fog?� and �why do the leaves fall off of the trees?� � and my answer �because it�s Autumn� wasn�t the correct one.

So I see no intense drive to learn, learn, learn (other than in maths) like is described. I did once � before he ever set foot inside a school. He is a very laid back child, polite, and a rule follower. But huge on fairness and he is quite pedantic about things.

He doesn�t have a passion right now (other than Maths which has been constant since forever), between 1-2 � he adored Thomas the tank engine from 2 � to 3 � he adored Pixar�s Cars. Now he quite likes Star Wars but it�s not all consuming like the other ones have been. I wonder if this highlights that the school situation isn�t so great.

Also in the book I got to the school options bit and read the bits for level 3 and 4. We only have the public (state) schools or private schools in my area. Primarily we can�t afford a private school; although I�m aware they have bursaries etc, but also I can�t drive so I have no way of getting him there. State school was the option she put as �must find an alternative�.

So do you have to be extremely motivated to be that (99th) gifted? He is like a normal 4 yr old who excels in math and reading. I know that testing is the best way to get a definite picture but having emailed around I�m looking at �600 minimum and that�s going to take us a while to get together what with Christmas. Even if we got him tested it will only satisfy us, I�m pretty sure the school is not going to change what they do. We have parent-teacher meeting next Tues and DP is suggesting if it seems to be appropriate he stays if not he wants to pull him out and home school. I see homeschool as a very viable option but I feel like I should be giving the school a chance. I�m too polite and would rather let someone walk over me than feel like I�m insulting them. I also think WAY too much about things and the thought that I am harming him in some way is stopping me from sleeping. All the various options are whizzing round my head and I have no idea where I am to start. If he is that gifted then is HS better? If he is how can I still be doubting it? Has school damaged him already? �.help?

Hi there and welcome to GT denial, as Kriston often says

I was feeling the same as you about my son (DS7) and seeing things that said he was gifted but then always having doubts about *how* gifted. Then doubting myself that he was truly gifted at all and that I was advocating for all the wrong things.

When I read Dr. Ruf's book I was sure he was a solid level 2, had lots of characteristics of a level 3 and one or two characteristics of a level 4. He is like your son. Very much like what you describe. Lots of questions but not the type often described by others. Never really questions concepts like death or existential stuff. Often "shuns" learning and tells us he prefers to "learn it on my own" - seems to prefer self discovery over being "taught." He was an early reader (before 4 years old) but doesn't have a voracious desire to read for pleasure. And he doesn't really have anything he is passionate about except maybe playing video and computer games!

But we actually took him to Dr. Ruf and she tested him and put him at a level 4! We were shocked. I said "he's not that motivated" and she replied, with a smile, "oh yes he is. Just not for what *you* want him to do!" She explained how personality types play into the way giftedness looks in children. My son is highly extroverted and very feeling - really outgoing and very sensitive. She said he doesn't read so much for pleasure because he'd prefer to be with people and doing something more actively engaging. Makes sense.

Don't worry too much about the level. My son is the exact same kid he was *before* we had him tested by Dr. Ruf. Her testing just confirmed what we were already experiencing. It did help to know that we were advocating in the right direction. She said he needed even MORE in the way of math differentiation. And that has helped tremendously. That's what you need to look at. Is your son happy where he is?? Mine wasn't.

I guess I don't really have an answer for you, just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone and your son is GT and you'll know what to do as you go along. I agree with Dottie. Look at those comments and see if the school setting is working for him. If testing helps you better understand his needs, then see if there's a way to get it done. But just follow your "mommy gut." I've learned that's the best guide we've got!

Is there any way you could compel the school to do the testing?

The thing that struck me is how you kept discounting the math interest. That counts as a passion, too!

It also sounds like school has not been great for your child. If he's an adapter--as many GT kids are--then he may have learned to keep his brain and curiosity quiet so he doesn't draw negative attention to himself. But that doesn't mean he's in a good place.

Though I am very grateful to Dr. Ruf for giving parents permission to see schools as not helpful for GT kids and permission to pull kids out of public schools, it is importnat to note that no one education option is right (or wrong) for all GT kids. Personality plays as much of a role as intelligence--maybe more of a role! So no one here can tell you that you should do this or shouldn't do that with your child. (Don't you wish someone would!) But as a homeschooler, I can tell you that the individualized eduation that I can give him through homeschooling has helped my child. It's a valid option for GT kids. Is it right for your child? Only you can say.

How does your son feel about school? Does he learn anything there? Is he happy? Is he growing, intellectually and emotionally? These are the questions I think you have to ask.

Is he damaged? Well, maybe. Maybe not. On the bright side, kids are resiliant. They recover from bad situations. But that doesn't mean they should STAY in bad situations any longer than absolutely necessary.

If you think he's in a bad situation now--and it's not clear from your post whether he is or not--then I'd say you probably need to do something for him. Grade acceleration, subject acceleration, in-class differentiation and homeschooling are just a few options that might work, depending upon your child and your school.

Has the school IDd him as GT? Are they supporting his needs and working with you? Or have you felt like they are working against your childn't interests?

If the school is amenable to working with you, then I'd start there. If you have been fighting them and feel hopeless about any chance of getting your son what he needs, then it's okay to take a different tack and pull him out of school. (Just, please, DO check your laws and school rules about homeschooling before you do this!)

It's a lot to think about, I know. <reassuring pat on the back>

thank you all for your insightful replies.

We had a horrible pre-school experience where he hated going to school, asked to stay home and his behavour was bad...but he was perfectly fine at the place. We took him out when the school basically said 'its not our problem' and a lot of suggestions that there was something wrong with him. He spent the next month led on the sofa watching TV all day with no interest in anything (i now think he was depressed). 6 months later my Dp and I started saying 'oh i remember he was like this before... It basically took 6 months for him to be truely happy again.
This is why i'm so frightened..it was such a gradual decline that it wasn't till it was bad that we noticed, then when we acted we were dismissed.

So he is now in a different school with a good reputation, and a good GT policy. They have said he is on the GT list. But we are in the UK and the list/policy is not law so it can just be lipservice. I tried to get the school to test him but as he doesn't disrupt the class they see no need - which is also why testing would be useless for advocating - 'gifted is gifted' it won't matter to them what degree.

When he started in April, everything was good. He was happy, enjoyed it. He got to go the the next year's class for maths, he got reading books. This term they wouldn't let him go up to the next year for maths they said they would differentiate. DS says that he only does 'easy maths', so i conclude either they are and its not the right level or they aren't. His teacher is very dismissive; 'you must spend ALOT of time with him', 'his social and motor skills are average' 'he doesn't read with expression'.

doodlebug - our sons sound very similar!

i'm not sure if he's in a bad situation. On day 2 of the school term he came home skip counting, but other than that i have not seen anything obvious. I think he is an adapter as you put it Kriston, when he walks in the class he loses all the expression on his face. If i ask about school he says that play time is fun he likes playing with his friends. If i ask about lessons he says not to ask him questions. So i have no real idea how he feels. In the morning he asks if he can 'just play cars today'. When i think of everything that he has learn in the past 2 months...they are things i've shown/taught him. At home he is extremely emotional and asks to do maths nearly every afternoon (for 1hr+). I usually find he has read his new school reading books before he left school.

They do not share what they are doing with him...i feel excluded so to speak. They've never asked what he has shown he can do. Hopefully parents evening will tell us what they are doing with him. If it's not at his readiness level, then we will be trying to initiate some way of them finding out what he is capable of. But i have found that the teachers/school are just not willing to accept 'suggestions' from parents.

Anyway, i've written way too much. thankyou for your help. I think i'm going to have to wait til Tuesday to make a plan. Hopefully i've been worrying for nothing.

Hi Mewzard - I am just chiming in because I also have a kid like yours (minus the love of maths!) From Ruf's book, i guessed him to be a level 3, and he turned out to be high level 4 or potential 5. My DS4 was a "sneak" reader - for the longest time, i knew he could read, but he wouldn't. Occasionally he would slip! Now, he'll read one chapter to us or switch off pages. But he has only once sat down by himself to read a book (and it was calvin and hobbes, to get ideas for mischief!) Now I see more of a difference between him and agemates simply from his advanced vocabulary, but most of the times he just seems like the other kids (except he can read at a very high level and can figure things out). I remember reading the gifted lists in Ruf and thinking, well my kid has zero sensitivity for others, he can't be that gifted. But each kid is different.

Our kids led parallel lives in the early years - we went through a thomas the train and cars movie phase here too. Now it's Lego star wars, lego indiana jones, lego batman (and their related wii counterparts!)

We are worrying about schools now. I agree with the others, that the school situation is unique to each gifted kid. What works for some will not work for others. One thing a good gifted specialist should be able to do is give you specific advice based on your child's personality. But with HG kids, you must at least be aware that if one situation is working out for schooling for one year (or half a year, or a few months), it may not work for the next year. Depending on the kid and the teachers you come across, you might have a great public school experience.

By the way, i think the motivation is what might push you into the level 5 in ruf's book, and this isn't something you can necessarily tell with youngsters who might not have found any particular passion yet. And I think you can be different levels in different areas.

Hopefully, you'll at least learn something at the parent/teacher conference (ie., whether or not they will do something more for your child). I'm sorry that they have been excluding you - I'm not too familiar with school laws in US or UK, but in the US, i think parents have a right to know how their child is being educated.

If not IQ testing, do you think your school would give an end-of-year test or other test so he can show his ability?

Wow they have led parallel lives. He is into lego star wars and lego indiana Jones (and their PS3 counterparts though not the wii).

I will ask if they can find some way of finding out his achievement. They have SAT at the end of y2 (approx 6-7yrs). i will admit we have done this at home (he saw me look at the papers online (out of curiosity) and made me print them out). He scored the same as an average 6 1/2 -7 yr old.

hello all -

I am chiming in because I am noticing some similarities between my ds4.5 on and what you are describing with your dc

It seems as though he is leveled off a bit lately. i.e. not really learning anything new at school.
His interest in math is much less intense, He has known all the letter sounds for a while but is not interested in reading right now or letting us know what words he can in fact read. (So bizarre, but I know many of you have been there)

This is his second year at Montessori where he had been doing really well. But a lot of his friends have moved on to other schools or have left the 2.5 to 5 yr class to go to the 5 and 6 class. I agreed with the teachers thinking to let him stay with with his class because then he could "be a leader".

But now I am remembering that he usually does better in an environment with at least a few older kids. (this has been true since he was 18 mos.) On top of that he is REALLY sad about the kids who have left. He is very social, outgoing and "into" people. The more I type, the more I remind myself that he is just plain lonely. For example, many inanimate objects in our house get names and personalities and become part of the family. I have some ideas on how to remedy this but that would call for a brand new thread...

Anyway, to return to the original topic, I just wanted to chime in that I understand your worry. It is super frustrating when the school situation is not ideal and our children are not thriving the way we know they can.

EW

p.s. what are the ages for the dc "living parallel lives"? My ds is not so much into thomas, still loves Cars(pixar).

Almost forgot I wanted to chime in on the Ruf's levels and the GT denial.

We won't be able to have our ds4y5m tested anytime soon. Some times I wonder if he is GT at all and if I should even be reading these boards. And then I have an aha moment. Yesterday we were at the library and my ds made a new friend. The library has a play area with blocks and other building sets and my son and the other boy quickly started making up games, cooperating, taking turns, building towers and making up scenarios. It was fascinating to watch them and hear them. The language they were both using seemed atypical for 4 year olds. "I know, what if we try this?..." "Oh, I see what your talking about..." etc.
And as for the social aspect, they introduced themselves and proceeded like they had know each other for ages.

They also did some spontaneous math. After putting together some plastic blocks that fit together...
other boy:"What do we do now?"
my ds: "I know, how about we split them up?"
ob:"Yeah you take half and I'll take half"
mds: "yeah, you take three and I'll take three because 3 plus 3 is 6"

The other boy was a lot smaller than my ds but it turns out he is 5 yrs old. And his mom seemed surprised to hear that my ds is not yet 5. We exchanged numbers and arranged to meet up again.

So in small pieces I am solving the problem of getting him around other (slightly older)kids he can relate to. But I have yet to figure out,

#1"Is school is no longer interesting for him to the point that he doesn't want to learn there? (and what to do if that is the case)
#2 LOG? Like others have said, when I read Ruf I see level 3, maybe a tiny bit of 4. Most of the time he seems like a regular kid who is just regular smart and advanced verbally. He is not reading yet. 3+3= 6 does not indicate HG+ but I know that is probably what he would be asked to do a year from now if he were to go to public K. etc. etc.

Enough rambling!

Mewzard - what are your thoughts on "afterschooling"