Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research PG? Husband is a skeptic, I am on the fence

hi all,
I am writing here just to pour my heart out and asking for some objective sharing. We are trying to not overestimate or underestimate our DS, but we've been through a couple surprises with IQ tests, first when he was 4, and then just a few days ago.

Our DS is a precocious builder, he'd build with magnetic tiles, about 450 of them, at age 3, and the design looked like ones made by adults. He built castles with legos for 11+ yo (1000+ pieces) completing it in 3 days or so, at age 4. Starting from age 6 he built legos for 16+ yo, such as the monochromatic 5000+ pieces ones. He received no coaching on this, totally reading the blueprint by himself but progressing rapidly from small sets to the giant sets. He also builds his own creations with lego and other building kits and enrolls in summer camps for 8-12 and does well in the programming and robotic classes. He does explain things like adults do, for instance as a 5 yo he'd explain the mechanics of cars and how shock absorber works and how the cars accelerate and why performance cars are different and faster. But that's because he heard it from an adult, except that he seemed to be able to explain it as well as the adult did after hearing it once, and seems to be comprehending what he said.

He is doing well at a private school, not a GT school, but not bored, the school is engaging, we love the engaging math program, high quality instruction, but no accelerations (beyond what we think is great instruction for everyone). He seems normally bright, well adjusted, loving school and friends and teachers. Seems normal in everything, not one of the kids who reads at age two or three or does linear algebra at age 5. Admittedly normal schools in our area are likely to have higher concentration of gifted children, many immigrants and many very smart people live in here.

He recently tested with WISC V, concluded that he is PG on his GAI (GAI=147), and his visual spatial score is in the extended norm in both subtests (got 155, she said it was a low estimate), and the psychologist let him do the WAIS visual spatial materials. This was consistent with how he was tested at age 4 with WPPSI back then.

I am trying to wrap my head around this. I know he is is bright, and we are 100% sure he is gifted. But PG seems like a big word. What do PG kids look like? We were so sure that many kids in Silicon Valley, where we live, build the way he does and so he is only normally gifted. He is even happy playing with his 3 yo brother's toys. But maybe not. We have highly intelligent friends, surely they have likewise kids? I've heard of kids who do college level chemistry or calculus in elementary school, or read Harry Potter at age 2, but that is not my DS.
But DS is in Visual Spatial extended norm, and so I don't know what it means practically or whether to trust the test result is, and what kind of ride we are getting ourselves into, and whether it will remain like this at school until middle school (our school is for K-8). It is all so confusing and I cannot talk to anyone in my social circle because they might think I am bragging, but I seriously just want to be educated and have a sounding board. Many intelligent people in my circle talk about the book Nurture Shock, and seems to be skeptical of IQ tests.

The main thing we are struggling with now is summer. He is enrolled in tech classes for older kids, and something that was good last summer is boring and too easy this summer. It seems that the slope of his progress in these practical STEM is outpacing his peers by quite a good bit, and we run out of reasonable programs that will take him.

One more thing that we see is that in general he does very well in his extra curriculars. He does martial art, and in 12 months he got 10 belt promotions. He remembers all the orchestrated required steps on day 1 and got his skill tapes for next belt often on the same day he got promotion for that belt.

I am sorry if I am just dumping my brain here. But I guess the crux of my question is, what is PG? I read online articles, but unsure what it means in reality with real kids. What do you think about the Nurture Shock book? Is that book's conclusion credible/applicable to the PG population? What do you think about its discrediting test results for younger kids? Our psychologist believe that while test results are unstable for lower standard deviations, it is credible for the higher standard deviations because of the much higher barrier.

Does my kid sound like a PG kid? He is only 7.5 years old, and otherwise seems normal at home. But then he is our first child and we don't know what normal is. What do we do next?

Thanks.

I'm mostly in this site as a parent, but I want to comment on this post from my own experience. I am typing in my phone in the dark at DSs bedtime so please excuse typos.
I had very similar overall scores as your son as a child, consistently over several tests and years (although visual spacial was a weakness not a strength). I was never grade accelerated and was happy in a gifted-enriched private school with no GT identification and with a best friend who was also likely PG. Sometimes I was challenged and sometimes I wasn't and in hindsight sometimes I made my own challenges, like doing all the calculus homework for that unit the night before the test. I didn't get straight As. I always had friends but was truly popular for the first time in my life at CTY camp.. I have degrees from "elite" schools and a successful career in a workplaces enriched with GT folks. So while there are many elements in my history consistent with common mental perceptions of PG kids, I was also just a kid who was never accelerated who learned to read at 6 and didn't stand out as different outside of school.
So my message is that your son being happy in his school is not inconsistent with his IQ. ( I would urge you to keep evaluating academic and social fit, of course.) I think your description of his building abilities is consistent with his test results.
I interpret your post as your belief that your son doesn't seem different enough to have those test results. PG can very much present like this. You may or may not have to radically change your approach to his education now or in the future. Not every PG kid presents with an extreme academic or social/emotional phenotype. Also consider that it is possible that he doesn't seem like that much of an outlier to you because the IQ distributions among your family or friends are skewed,

I feel the same about both my kids.

My DS7 is PG and his visual spatial score on WISC-V is the same as your DS. He was obessed with alphabets at 15 months and a very early reader and speller. He loves drawing and colors and building in Minecraft. We always knew he was gifted but more in the language side and didn't know he was PG and mostly gifted in VS, until his WISC test result came back.

He was a social outlier when he was younger. Although he still is at times but he's much better now with relating to other kids and making friends with age peers. He is advanced in math but probably only 1 or 1.5 grade above. He is talented in music and art and has great memory. But he is not really extremely advanced in a particular academic area, like you hear about some PG kids who are so advanced in math, science or LA.

I think PG kids may have similar IQs but they are still individuals so they will come in different forms and shapes.

I have two kids that both tested 159 GAI on the WISC IV- one is academically advanced, but socially awkward (he is 2e)- the other is socially advanced, and *ahem* academically awkward... and I'm still not really sure what's going on with that one. I would not have even thought the second one was gifted if I hadn't seen the score.

So if your child is doing great where he is, that's wonderful. Just keep an eye on things, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There are some gifted kids that need a lot more academically, and some that do fine as long as the school they are attending meets their needs. It's a question of fit.

I tend to go with "feed the beast" - basically if my children show an interest in something I try to support that area. If they aren't doing well in something I try to figure out why, but well, some children are extremely gifted but not in all areas. I was in the gifted program but never could master algebra.. but knowing what I know now I wish I could have skipped over it to geometry. But that's another story.. Anyway, I hope any of the above is helpful.

My 2e/pg ds10 (first and only child for us) was similar in some ways to your ds. He was in private gifted schools for pre-k/k before he started to homeschool at 6.5 yrs old. Now, at 10.5 yrs old, he wants to try out public school - which I'm predicting won't last more than a couple of weeks because he won't be able to tolerate the amount of structure and level taught in a typical 5th grade classroom.

I would say that the pgness, or at least with my son's, isn't always 'obvious'. There's more flashes at times. Absolutely, it's a case of 'feeding the beast'. Also, it's a case of FIRM boundaries and limits with him. Other pg kids may have an easier time and less of a struggle at regulating their emotions, moods, impulse tendencies, etc.

Also, while some kids are very early with their motor skills or speech/language, many others are not. And while some kids are very early with showing their pgness (ie. doing calculus at 8), many others show their pgness later. Then, there's the whole aspect of how you may have a pg child who does x, y, and z at home but doesn't feel comfortable doing so in front of anyone outside of home.

I agree that not all pg kids have the same level of motivation, interests, or abilities in all areas. That's one of the big myths. Some pg kids are more intrinsically or extrinsically motivated than others. Some are much better in math or science than others.

While the test scores may help you gain entry into DYS or other programs, you've still got to deal with the social/emotional aspects, often on a daily level. That's been the bigger and larger problem for my ds and with school or other programs that are age-based and restricted based on age.

One of the problems that you may face (which we have routinely faced) with a pg child is dealing with the asynchronous development and various restrictions based on age. Many programs will simply not accept a child under a certain age. Then, other problems will be so much beneath your child's level that your child is likely to get frustrated and perhaps angry. This may last too for some time. I've been told that many places will refuse to even look at my son until he's around 12 yrs old regardless of ability.

So my suggestion is to try to find ways on how to feed the beast in terms of his social/emotional needs as well as his cognitive ones. It's a balancing act. Don't be nervous about enrolling your ds in any MOOCs or any college-level course when he's shows interest or motivation to do so -- while he may still want to play in a sandbox.

Same boat here. My PG DD8 (WISC-V FSIQ 152) seems very typical on the surface. She has no OEs, she's engaging and friendly, she's not shy and doesn't exhibit any behaviors that would peg her as "different." But the second she opens her mouth, you know there's something interesting going on in her head.

She's very artistic (can draw in great accurate detail anything she sees), she absorbs information like a sponge, she can make tiny things out of LEGO that are impeccable representations of something (ex.: a 2" tall cockatiel that exactly captured the essence of a cockatiel - like the LEGO architecture series but an animal version), she out-thinks her father and me, she wakes up in the morning and immediately asks if it's possible to build a 3D printer that could create animal cells using organic material (where does she get this?). She taught herself to read at 3 yrs, 4 months and hasn't gone more than a few waking hours since without reading something. *deep breath*

But on the other side of things - after five years of swimming lessons every summer, she can pretty much just keep herself from drowning. She's been through ballet, gymnastics and martial arts with no appreciable ability in any of them. That's fine, I just want her to get exercise, not to necessarily excel but it's clear she has absolutely zero athletic potential. She is very kind to kids in her class but once she starts talking to them, you can just see the light go off for them because she isn't interested in the things they're interested in and they have no idea what she is talking about. At last year's Valentine's Day party, the teacher had the kids write something nice about each classmate on their valentine. All but one of the ones given to my daughter said something about her being smart - the other didn't say anything at all. She skipped 3rd grade and will be starting 4th grade tomorrow. I hope she finds some kids she can relate to.

I haven't read Nurture Shock (will check that out). I just wanted to say that I thought PG kids were all the types who go to college at 12 or 13 (who knows, DD might), are prodigies in music or who can do trig while still in diapers. Some are for sure, but not mine. DD is my only kid too. I had no idea just how gifted she was until I started subbing in her school and other elementary schools and realized that she's light years ahead of every other kid I've met so far. That helped me see that our normal at home was anything but normal!

Your son certainly sounds PG to me. Have you tried JHU CTY classes for him? His school might allow him to use them in class to further challenge him. My DD will be taking a critical reading class from them during her school day instead of being in a reading group this year as she's far outpaced the level of books they cover in 4th grade.

Sorry if this is scattered. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

Personally, I was an IQ skeptic until we had our DYS DD tested and intrigued by the results I began to actually read up on it. There absolutely are differences and those differences are correlated with life long outcomes.

I am wary of calling our DD PG because I still cannot suppress the bias that that is associated with absolute epoch changing geniuses. There are several that say 3 sigma to the right of the mean is PG, as DYS does but others count that as 'merely' EG. Personally, I am more comfortable with HG or HG+ when describing our DD. Each to their own...

We just received the full result, there was a wide asynchrony in his results between Visual Spatial and the other things (fluid reasoning, among other things). His speed was also quite average, though I heard this is quite typical in the gifted population. The psychologist said it could be a matter of maturity and lack of exposure, because that kind of discrepancy (with fluid reasoning) was not usually found. He also took his time to erase his errors during the test rather than just crossing them out quickly. We also learned that DS also hit the ceiling of WAIS (the Weschler test for adults) block design, she administered WAIS when he hit the ceiling of WISC V, and he didn't meet the discontinuation criterion when the test maxed out.

We haven't quite had a full comprehension of what all of these means. Thank you so much for sharing your perspectives! I am feeling good that we are not alone in feeling unsettled with the test results. To be honest sometimes I am also feeling a bit intimidated and scared by the unknowns.

You've asked just about the same questions I did when we discovered DS8 was in the range after getting his WISC results. I remember asking the testing psychologist if there had been some sort of mistake, and she nearly laughed me out of her office.

The best thing you can do for him is to follow his lead. If he's happy and engaged at school, you don't need to change anything. Unfortunately, most school experiences aren't nearly enough for our kids and often we have to advocate.

Just remember... he's the same kid that you've had all along. Nothing has really changed, so you don't need to be scared or unsettled. That feeling goes away over time, too.