Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment High IQ vs Gifted?

Hi all. This is my first post and I'm a little nervous, frustrated, emotional, etc. so forgive me for any grammatical errors and general ramblings. :P

My ds is 11 years old. He's in 5th grade, soon to be 6th. He has always, since birth, been a little different. No developmental delays, just different. His speech development was different, but in the end "normal". His first words at 13 month was a 3 word sentence which he repeated for a day. After that he would pick up a word and use it a few times. By 2 yrs his understanding was very high and he began to identify letters and possibly even words. He was diagnosed with an expressive language delay and has not stopped chattering away since he was about 2 and 1/2. When he left speech therapy at 3, his language skills were equal to those of 6 yr old.

He was always very interested in things -- passionate even. He could focus, when interested, for a good amount of time. We first noticed this when he was about 13 months. He spent over an hour figuring out a reversible train / car track set. He was an avid reader - even before he could read - and would sit for a long time with books. He loves to build things and has excelled in that area. He's emotionally sensitive -- more so than his peers it seems. He doesn't like it when people are mean, he finds some books to upsetting when characters die or are treated unfairly, etc.

He does struggle socially at school. He's very tall and awkward physically so that has made him stand out. Some of the other kids seem a little immature and don't have the same interests (or passion for these interests). He becomes upset easily when teased and feels like he has been socially isolated by other students.

He's not in the GT program as his COGAT scores are not high enough for the district. His achievement tests are always around 95-99th percentile. I know there are many in his class who perhaps struggle to even perform at grade level and the teachers feel an obligation to help them rather than the kiddo who is reading at a HS or college level. Still.... Fourth grade was a total snoozer for him and left him completely unchallenged and bored. This year is better thanks to his more engaging teachers; however, i've seen him start to lose interest in school work, reading, etc. and this concerns me.

He's been in therapy on and off for several years now to help him with his emotions. His doctors have all had the same general feedback in that his issues seem to stem from the fact that he's very bright or gifted. HIs 3rd grade teacher recommended him for the GT program. She felt he was very creative and different from the other kids. She was worried about him losing this spark. I've had a number of other teachers remark on his creativity. He's a fantastic writer, builder and otherwise master of all things lego. The GT teacher / school board felt he needed testing for this so they had him take the Torrance Test for Creativity. It took them months to get the test. It had never before been offered to anyone in the district and they were unfamiliar with it. The GT teacher scored the test and gave us the news a few days before the end of school. Again, he did not qualify. We never received the scores and it was only in 4th grade we saw the notes that the test was "adapted from the TTCT". Huh? We have no idea what scores he received or even what test he took.

We've been working with a psychologist again this year and she recommended that we have another dr run a battery of tests -- WISC, WIAT, ADD, depression, etc. He was having some severe insomnia issues. He wouldn't sleep for days because of some recurring fears. The tests showed no learning disabilities or language disorders. ADHD may be an issue; however, until he can be challenged more at school we don't know. The drs again felt that he was not spectrum. His WISC score was 132 and his WIAT scores were very high ranging from at level for math to HS/College for language. We presented all of this to the school and still.... my child is not gifted?? I realize he is moderately gifted, but isn't that still gifted??

Has anyone run up against this with their school district? Just curious what options I have. Any advice?

A score of 132 is certainly in the range that most definitions of giftedness agree qualifies as gifted. That said, there isn't a unified definition of giftedness, especially one used by all school systems in the same way that some other differences get defined.

A good next step would be to think about what you want from the school system or want the school system to provide. Do you want him in the gifted class? Well then look at what the admission or appeal criteria are. Would you consider subject or grade acceleration? Does the school have a policy on that? Are you done fighting the school and looking for appropriate enrichment outside of school?

And certainly these are common enough problems that people run into. Either just missing the cutoff using the school's testing, or just focusing on the lower achieving students, it does sometimes feel like the bureaucracy doesn't care. Advocacy often isn't fun.

I don't have any advice but wanted to say WELCOME! This forum has been incredibly helpful for me and I hope you find the same.

I'm currently running up against something similar, I don't have the final word yet, but from conversations I've had with the school, it doesn't look like my DS8 is going to get into either the self-contained GATE nor the pull-out.

I wonder if your school district publishes a policy or requirements for their gifted program. Often this would be found in the school handbook or online and it may be listed under special education. Did they explain why he was not accepted?

What recommendations did the doctor performing the tests give? Do you have a full report?

Do you think that the gifted program would be a good fit for your son, or do you find yourself wanting to find him enrichment elsewhere?

Requirements are not listed. It's like some a secret panel meets and considers 3 data points (that's what I was told) in order to make their decision. The district web site says data points might include standardized cognitive abilities assessments, achievement tests, portfolios, classroom work samples, parent and educator input through a standardized instrument such as the SIGS and/or notes from an interview with the learner.
This is also their policy

Gifted and Talented Services are designed to provide an academically challenging education for learners who perform or show the potential to perform at a remarkably high level of accomplishment when compared to other learners of the same age, experience, or environment and:
Exhibits high performance capability in an intellectual, creative, or artistic area;
Possesses an unusual capacity for leadership; or
Excels in a specific academic field.

Thanks! Yes, it's like academic limbo. On a personal level, it's really hitting some triggers I think. The school doesn't view him as gifted, but his doctors do. Who is right?? Is there a right?? ugh.

Thanks. Not sure if we're done. I just want him to have access to the same opportunities do. We've certainly done what we've could to provide additional enrichment after school -- robotics, advanced science, etc. We encourage him when he has a passion and goes down his rabbit hole of intense interest. I just want the school to recognize that he is different and has different needs here. I have no doubt if he were struggling, he'd get the attention he needs. Unfortunately, I feel like he's largely ignored because he does score high on achievement tests, is well behaved, etc.

YES, he is gifted and probably frustrated since it has gone mostly unacknowledged by many at school. What a shame!

I would take WISC results over CogAT results any day of the week. In fact, CogAT results can negatively correlate with WISC scores for some gifted students (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/why_test.htm). Does your school really not acknowledge the WISC? So here is a school that saw "something" in him, but they won't acknowledge the WISC results? As for the TTCT...meh, not sure it is terribly useful.

So, welcome! Keep advocating for your DS!

Welcome to the forum.

We are having exact same issue. DS9's WISC score is also 132. He was denied to GT last week and I have been trying to find out more. The problem with our district is that the ranking is based on a number of scores including creativity test. I don't know which one he did not do well.

The GT coordinator told me his score is really good and he is ranked one of the top 250 of 700 applicants. But only 198 was offered a spot at one of the 6 GT sites. he is basically on the "waiting list". However, they don't accept outside testing or teacher's recommendation.

I've come to realize that the GT class might not be a good fit for him any ways. He is not high achieving and only motivated by the things he is interested, such as math, building stuff, writing comics. His teacher told me what might have hurt his score is he did not even care to write more than a page for the writing sample for the GT screening. At the point, if he is finally offered a spot from the waiting list, it's good. If not, I will try to find him opportunities outside of school.

hang in there.

Welcome to the forum. We had issues with getting our ds id'd as gifted through our school district - and were ultimately successful. Our situation is a bit different - our ds is 2e - but here are a few thoughts based on our process that might be useful to consider:

* Our ds scored significantly lower on his CogAT than he had scored previously on the WISC. Over time, (due to his 2e primarily), he was also assessed using the WJ-III Cognitive Abilities test and another round of the WISC - his ability scores on those tests have been very consistent - it's the CogAT that doesn't "line up".

* The CogAT is a "learned ability" test rather than an "innate ability" test such as the WISC. This means that to a certain extent, a child's background exposure to different types of information could potentially impact their score.

* It sounds like your district considers multiple factors when making decisions about gifted program entry, but there might be a bit more info that's out there that might be useful when advocating. For instance, do you have any idea what the cut-off percentile is on the CogAT? If you were to find out, for instance, that it's either lower than or around the same area as your dd's WISC percentile, you could consider advocating from the standpoint of having strong scores as support. If you were to find out the percentage cut-off is significantly higher (for instance, 98 or 99th percentile), then you'll have a more difficult time advocating with the WISC score you have (although it sounds like you have achievement scores that are close).

* If you choose to advocate further, get as much info as you can, and then put a request in writing.

* Since he's already on the waiting list, I'd guess that there's possibly not much that further advocacy can accomplish at this point (but I could be wrong!)


A few other thoughts - did you see a breakdown of subtest scores on the WISC and WIAT testing? If so, were there any large discrepancies? (large gaps can sometimes exist between subtest scores, indicating a challenge, yet average out so that you'd never guess they existed when you're only seeing the averaged test scores). Does his academic work reflect the scores you see on the WISC and WIAT? Has he always been anxious or has his anxiety only been present since he's been in school? You mentioned that he's physically awkward - is he unusually physically awkward or just typically physically awkward? (i.e., did he meet most of his motor-related milestones at the age you'd expect, or was he somewhat behind age-wise in attaining some of them?)


While it's true that if his entire challenge is due to being under-challenged in the classroom, and if you were able to provide him with the appropriate level of challenge at school, what appear to be ADHD symptoms might totally disappear... I don't think it's necessarily true that you can't determine if ADHD is an issue when a child is under-challenged in school. You can rule ADHD out by a thorough ADHD assessment... but I don't think you have to wait for that perfect academic environment to know that a child has an ADHD diagnosis (if they actually do). I realize I'm not explaining this very well! For instance, there are a lot of symptoms of ADHD that also occur for other reasons, including potentially being in an inappropriate school environment.. therefore you can't determine that because symptom "A" exists, a child definitively has ADHD. On the other hand, there are a number of widely accepted screeners for ADHD that can be used to determine the potential for ADHD, regardless of where the child is placed in school or the level of frustration due to that placement. One of the criteria for ADHD is that the behaviors must be observed in more than one setting... so I'd consider - do you see ADHD-like behaviors at home? Or have their been concerns about ADHD expressed by either a teacher or an adult who is involved with your child in a different setting? If no to all three of those, I'd not worry one whit about ADHD... but otoh, if there have been concerns.. then I'd still consider it a possibility worth checking into. There are checklists you can find for tweens and teens that they can fill out themselves that can give you insight into whether or not they have concerns which might be related to ADHD. TOTALLY not the same thing as seeing a professional, but they can be helpful for you as a parent to try to understand what's going on with your ds.

Another thing you can do with an 11-year old is keep a journal of when anxiety peaks etc - and over time you and he might see some patterns that would help you understand what's going on.


This again, is only a remote possibility and not necessarily at all likely, but if you have any other suspicions of an LD etc - this is sometimes what you'll see in a highly gifted child - it can look like a child who's only interested in things he's really motivated by, when what's really happening is he can't keep up or perform above average etc on areas he's challenged, but no one notices the difference other than attributing it to interest or lack of interest.

Hope that makes sense!

polarbear