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I wasn't sure whether to post this but hoping someone has some insight. DD is in orchestra (5th grade) and plays the cello. I can't get her to practice it but she refuses to give it up. I have heard of parents making their child play an instrument but I feel like this is the opposite, where I want her to quit but she refuses. She also plays piano and we don't have the same issues getting her to practice. I think when she signed up for orchestra it was a year commitment. Even though she literally NEVER practices she claims that she is at the same level as the other cellos.
Part of the problem is that she has some major focus issues. By the time she gets home from school and gets her homework done, her meds are worn off and she is very scattered.
If she gives up the cello now (as in, I email the teacher and tell her DD can no longer do it), has the ship sailed, and it will be too late later on to join band/orchestra?
I was wondering about percussion for next year possibly, and whether that requires practice at home?
You say she doesn't have any problem practicing piano. It sounds like she's stuck on something and doesn't know how to get unstuck…. or as you suggested she has just run out of steam and can't get herself focused any further. Maybe ask her to practice three days a week, instead of piano (so maybe four days piano, three days cello, with one day over the weekend where she practices both in one day?
Have you talked to the orchestra teacher about her performance in the orchestra? Does the teacher have any thoughts about why she might be struggling with practicing?
oh, and don't forget to tell her this joke:
What's the difference between a violin and a cello? A cello burns longer
Hi LAF, Good questions. She was having problems with the bow hold but DD says she is doing much better now. She still won't practice. If I knew that she would practice if we signed her up for private lessons, I would gladly do the private lessons, but I don't think that will be the case. I think some of this may have to do with perfectionism. Since the piano makes more sense to her, and she's more advanced with it, she's not as reluctant to play it. I used to have a lot more problems getting her to practice piano than I do now, but it was another instrument she refused to give up. The only way that I could get her to practice was threatening to cancel the lessons. But now I feel like maybe we are at the limit and one instrument is enough. If we keep on with the cello, it's possible she will start practicing more later, but I don't know that. I don't know if it's something about the cello per se, or if she would be like this with any new instrument. We already own a clarinet, trumpet, and violin. I wish she had picked one of those, at least we wouldn't have to pay huge rental fees!
About a month ago, I told her to do piano one day and cello the next, and alternate, but she doesn't practice piano every day. She just doesn't play either one certain days.
If you weren't paying rental I would say step back and let it between her in the teacher. Since you are I think it is fair to say practice at least (a mutually agreed amount) or switch to an instrument we own.
If we switch, we probably can't do it til next year, and even then she may not have much of a choice since there is a lottery system if too many people want to play the same instrument.
I just told her that I'm emailing her orchestra teacher unless she goes and practices right now, and she is presumably setting it up to practice (it seems like it's a big production with the thing). I'm just sick of this being a battle everyday.
Blackcat, I understand your frustration! My DS is too young for those issues, but I can tell you my experience when I was in orchestra/band. I kept switching between the sax and trombone. Finally, my mom put her foot down and said that the only way she was paying any more money for music stuff unless I practiced consistently. She would pull me away from whatever I was doing and be an audience. If I got mad at her for it, then that was the end of it. I quickly learned the hard way.
I agree with the idea of contacting her orchestra teacher to see how she is truly doing... and perhaps to get some outside cheerleading/support on this whole notion of practicing. I'm going to guess she is not the first fifth grader who likes rehearsal more than practicing.
If she is as good as the other cellos, what would be your goal for her practice? To be more advanced? To make sure you get your money's worth? :-)
I would think that as long as she is not falling behind, and is having fun, letting her be is a real option. She can enjoy making music with the cello for a year without investing much effort in it, and decide later on whether she wants to be more serious in middle school or go back to just playing piano.
My DD (5th grade) does a third instrument at school and she also doesn't practice. She says she is one of the best in her section and she is playing this third instrument just for this year. She works hard on piano and violin. I think it's fair.
My DS back in 5th grade played percussion in school (also his third instrument). He also didn't practice but was really ahead of the other percussionists. My policy at that time was "as long as the teacher doesn't complain, everything would be just fine."
She is supposed to practice 20 min. a day and we are supposed to fill out a sheet and return it. It's basically "homework". I just haven't been signing it. Not sure if she can get kicked out for not practicing or not...
Looking back I recall my cello teacher had extraordinarily low expectations of me. I think because I started late (age 9) and had a troubled home life she didn't see any potential talent in me. I was happy to oblige because in all fairness I didn't know any better.
Maybe a chat with the teacher about raising expectations might do the trick?
Just a few thoughts- what are the goals/reasons for studying cello? I hear you when you raise concerns about staying with th program if she takes a break, which suggests you hope this is a long-term activity? Does your DD?
I think you need to explore with the orchestra teacher your concerns as noted above, but also discuss strategies for motivation and practice if you and DD both want to continue. We have found the school music teachers to be good allies, and they have a lot of experience with this issue, so it wouldn't hurt to ask.
In our program, yes, kids can get kicked out, but there is usually a lot of communication and working together (or not) before things get to that point. As a previous poster noted, if she is truly keeping up, she may not see practice as useful, and this may require some explicit explanations, or interventions.
When our kids were in the early stages of learning instruments, we ended up adding private lessons, in a large part to help with motivation and practicing. The private teacher provided individual attention, which could help with perfectionist issues, but also was able to assign music and exercises that were more challenging and more interesting than what was being learned at school. The school group lessons serve a purpose, but are by design limited in what they accomplish.
The rapport with and encouragement of a professional musician has been invaluable, as well, though I will say it is important to find the right fit. One of my kids still doesn't practice regularly, goes through spurts, but the teacher gets this about him and works with him- there are times when they focus more on theory, or musicality, or spend more time talking about music in general. For our DS, this is ideal, but obviously would depend on the kid and her/your goals.
I was in band/wind symphony up through part of college and I think if she can stick with it, she would really enjoy that aspect of being in a group. Otherwise I would just say keep on with the piano, since it is practiced, and be done with it. No other instruments. I'm not sure what dd's motivation is. She likes the group aspect, but she was like this with piano too. She wanted to take the lessons but didn't want to practice for a long period of time.
I'll email the teacher and see if she is keeping up. There was a period where the teacher was concerned and changed up the groups. She was concerned about everyone, not just dd, and said that the previous group was very disruptive, hyper, and they were all falling behind. If she says that DD is still having problems with X,Y, and Z maybe we can try private lessons til the end of the year but if she still won't practice, I don't think we can keep on with the cello. Private lessons are $30 for 30 min. which seems outrageous if the time isn't put into it at home as well.
I would contact the teacher and find out. Maybe she is playing just as well as the other students in her group and feels no need to practice to get better than they are? Trying to fit in?
[quote=blackcat I'm not sure what dd's motivation is. She likes the group aspect, but she was like this with piano too. She wanted to take the lessons but didn't want to practice for a long period of time.[/quote]
Each of my children has gone through periods like this with the instruments they play. Sometimes it's just a phase where practicing is boring so they simply don't want to bother, sometimes it's lack of motivation because they don't need to practice to keep up. DS is the musician in my family - he loves loves loves music and plays both piano and an instrument in school band. He actually participates in more than one band... but he has very little spare time due to homework. When he has downtime, he likes to play piano - what he wants to play, not necessarily what his teacher wants him to practice. I'm sure we're a great example of what *not* to do, but fwiw, he's also made great progress on piano and his other instrument over the years, and he's doing really well in band without practicing. At home, I'm blown away by how wonderful he sounds when he plays piano. He's not going to get into Julliard, but otoh, he never planned on a career in music anyway, it's his release and relaxation and his fun and he plays confidently enough and well enough to play for friends in social situations. So I'm ok with him not practicing and/or just playing what he wants to at home, and for us, it's worked out a-ok.
If he wasn't keeping up with what he needed to be able to play for band, I'd want him to practice, but I think it's important not to forget that our kids are practicing their instruments every time they pick them up to play during band class at school - so it's not like they aren't getting any practice at all, they are playing and learning while they play. It wouldn't be fair for a child who *needed* to practice to hold other students in band back, but if a student is keeping up and able to play their part, then I wouldn't make them practice at home.
If you're worried about developing lazy habits, you can always pick something else that your dd is interested in to try to help her learn that routine practice is valuable.
And... all of my advice is probably completely irrelevant due to the fact that your dd's teacher is making her students complete a practice log. I'm not sure how I'd deal with that lol!
Well, school bands/orchestras, particularly elementary ones, can be very low level. It is not surprisng that your DD, with some instrumental training in piano, may not need to practice the school music. If that is the case, then it would be cruel to force her. At this point, DD does not practice either her 7th grade music or the honor music while DS only rarely practices his honor music. I don't pressure them to do unnecessary practice but they both practice music for their private teachers otherwise they would look like idiots during their lessons. For DD, that is not enough to fill the required school practice charts so she plays her own music. There was a time period when DD was particularly resistant to practice but I found out it was partly because she didn't have any music to motivate her. Once we bought a ton of popular music that she chose, she was more motivated to practice.
As for missing the train, it all depends on your middle school's policies. For our district, it would be difficult, but not impossible to pick up an instrument in middle school. The expectation is that students played a year in their elementary bands/orchestras but a motivated student can audition to show that she meets the minimum expectations.
There was a time period when DD was particularly resistant to practice but I found out it was partly because she didn't have any music to motivate her. Once we bought a ton of popular music that she chose, she was more motivated to practice.
It is really true in my household. Both my DS's take private piano lessons. They both don't like to practice. However, when they are given a piece of music that they like or a piece that they request the teach to give them to play, they tend to put in more effort and not too resistant to practice.
blackcat, I am wondering if you could ask her to practice the cello during the same timeslot as when she is practicing the piano - if she is out of focus at the end of the day, she could either practice cello and piano back to back or reduce piano time on alternate days and practice cello at that time when she has more motivation and focus.
I am all for discontinuing instrument lessons when the child refuses to practice, but, I have known many adults who had regrets that their parents did not push them enough to continue on an instrument. I don't know any adults who were upset at having learned an instrument or participated in orchestra. So, it may be worth a little extra effort to reschedule her day so that she has more time to work on piano + cello in a continuous session.
I also like the idea upthread about providing her more interesting sheetmusic if she does not think that the orchestra repertoire at her level is challenging.
If she is really at the same level as the other cellos and is still interested in participating in the group, I think I would let her play the rest of the year and discuss again in the summer.
"I'll check in on her again this week and let you know. Last I checked she was able to get her instrument up, use good posture and was ready pretty quickly. She wasn't so distracted by those around her. I need to check her reading skills and bow hold and will let you know."
I honestly don't think it's "too easy", I think she is having problems holding the thing. And she tends to give up immediately when anything is difficult. So, we'll see if I get any more info on Thurs. I'll probably try harder to force her to practice more but I don't know about switching instruments for next year, giving up on band/orchestra altogether, or what. In a way, this seems easy as in "If you don't practice your instrument, then you can't continue with the instrument" (i.e. logical consequences), but if she will have a hard time joining again later that seems harsh.
I haven't read all the responses, but I wouldn't make her practice. I started piano lessons when I was very young, and by the time I played an instrument in school it was intuitive and very easy. I never/rarely practiced and was first chair through high school, when I quit as a junior so I could just do piano. Especially at her age, they're probably just learning notes, and how to hold the instrument. It probably doesn't take any time to keep up with someone who is not familiar with music at all.
I listened to her play last night and it was horrible. She claimed the instrument is badly out of tune but I think she must be doing something wrong. I could recognize that she was playing "ode to joy" but just barely. I was glad she didn't want to do clarinet because of of all the squeaking but I think this is just as bad. I'm going to call some private teachers, see if I can find someone who is reasonable.
So apparently DD went to orchestra practice (with the whole orchestra) today and was a little late. She sat down and played with everyone else, and the teacher stopped in horror and tuned the instrument. It was so bad that it had to be tuned again at the group lesson. So maybe that was the main problem. I don't know a lot about string instruments.
Sounds like your DD's school could use some new cellos!
They're not that easy to tune for an inexperienced person, so I don't think I would expect your DD to tune it herself. And if it had to be tuned twice, that suggests that it was either really, really far out of tune, or that it doesn't hold its tuning very well. If the latter case, it's a flaw of the instrument (or its worn-out strings or pegs). Rentals!
...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
She accidentally left it in the car one day and it was cold...could that have messed it up and kept it messed up about 2 weeks later? (like I said she never practices, so it's possible she didn't play it for two weeks after she left it out in the car).
She accidentally left it in the car one day and it was cold...could that have messed it up and kept it messed up about 2 weeks later? (like I said she never practices, so it's possible she didn't play it for two weeks after she left it out in the car).
Yes, that could definitely mess up the tuning, and once messed up, it would stay messed up.
We keep DD's instrument in a humidity controlled room because a drastic change in humidity does a lot of damage to string instruments.
You might want to google cello & humidity.
Even if your DD doesn't want to continue cello beyond this year, I highly recommend private lessons, even for a handful of sessions. Getting the basics down (bow hold, bowing, tuning, posture, basic intonation/scales, etc) with the help of a good teacher would make a big difference, I promise!
My kids take weekly private lessons for viola and their teacher has insisted they always tune their own instrument. Maybe she can learn how to tune her cello? There are lots of jokes about the cello though, namely that it is very hard to tune!
jack'smom--i don't know, the teacher would need to teach her since I don't have any idea.
I'm still planning on looking into private lessons, at least maybe for the rest of the year. She's also in choir 1X per week before school (and orchestra is also before school), so all of the music is adding up to a lot of time. She won't give any of it up, though.
So apparently DD went to orchestra practice (with the whole orchestra) today and was a little late. She sat down and played with everyone else, and the teacher stopped in horror and tuned the instrument. It was so bad that it had to be tuned again at the group lesson. So maybe that was the main problem. I don't know a lot about string instruments.
If the teacher had to tune it twice in one day, then it is likely either the strings need to be replaced or there is damage to the fine tuners or the pegs. Of course, it is possible that your DD knock it out of tune or the cello experienced a temperature/humidity change during the day. Either way, you should have the rental company check the instrument and repair as necessary.
By the way, it is pretty easy to tune string instruments these days and students are expected to tune their own in class by 6th grade in our district. In the old days, you usually tune against the piano so it can be difficult if you don't have good ears. Nowadays, vibration tuners are popular and cheap or you can use a free app. You basically turn the fine tuners until the visual target lines up. If you are more than a couple of notes off, you may need to adjust the pegs, which can be tricky for a novice (you need to push in while you turn), especially if the pegs are not properly greased and you have a big instrument like the cello or bass.
Anyhow, you should really tune your instrument every time you play, particularly if you can't hear when it is just a little out of tune. Kids do get lazy but I would insist they tune at least once a week.
I'm supriced they did not teach them how to tune the instruments. It does no good to practice with out of tune string instrument. How will she know where to place her fingers?
My 8 year old plays violin and when she started I had a electronic tuner so I could tune the violin before she practiced. It will not be perfectly tuned that way but I never learned how to do it with my ear. Luckily DD has perfect pitch so I do not need to tune it anymore. You should get a tuner for her.
Originally Posted by Quantum2003
If the teacher had to tune it twice in one day, then it is likely either the strings need to be replaced or there is damage to the fine tuners or the pegs. Of course, it is possible that your DD knock it out of tune or the cello experienced a temperature/humidity change during the day. Either way, you should have the rental company check the instrument and repair as necessary.
Do cellos really stay in tune that well? DD often needs to adjust her violin tuning in the middle of the practice or lesson and so does her teacher.
If the teacher had to tune it twice in one day, then it is likely either the strings need to be replaced or there is damage to the fine tuners or the pegs. Of course, it is possible that your DD knock it out of tune or the cello experienced a temperature/humidity change during the day. Either way, you should have the rental company check the instrument and repair as necessary.
Do cellos really stay in tune that well? DD often needs to adjust her violin tuning in the middle of the practice or lesson and so does her teacher.
I can't speak to all cellos; however, the few that I have personally tuned tend to stay in tune (within a reasonable tolerance) unless the temperature/humidity changes too much or you accidentally bump the fine tuners or pegs. In my experience, you do need to tune much more frequently when the strings become very worn, although that is a bigger problem with violins than cellos (you can get away with old strings on a cello more so than on a violin). Although I said tune the cello every day, I actually meant check every day because often you may only need to adjust one or two strings or even none, particularly if the instrument hasn't been moved. Of course, there are a lot of variables. For example, the composition of the strings make a big difference. Again, I can't speak for all cellos much less all string instruments - there may be many musicians who do tune their instruments multiple times during a lesson/practice.
Ok, I'm sure this is an idiotic question, but is it possible for her to play it wrong in such a way that it sounds out of tune? I'm sure that the instrument was out of tune. But I don't know (from here on) how to tell if she's playing it incorrectly or if it's a tuning issue.
For now, you need a free chromatic tuner app and watch a youtube video or two on how to tune a cello with a tuner:
Just make sure that IF you have to use the pegs to tune, you push in the peg in as you turn it.
It took me awhile to get comfortable tuning string instruments but once you learn how, it's not that bad. We use a tuning fork and do the rest by ear these days but at the beginning, we used a free tuner app and that was good enough until DD's ears could detect that it wasn't exactly right.
Ok, I'm sure this is an idiotic question, but is it possible for her to play it wrong in such a way that it sounds out of tune? I'm sure that the instrument was out of tune. But I don't know (from here on) how to tell if she's playing it incorrectly or if it's a tuning issue.
It isn't an idiotic question and the answer is potentially yes but unlikely. It depends on the number of strings and series of notes she is playing. When it is a little out of tune, notes may just sound a bit sharp or flat but it can be so far out of tune that she is actually playing a different note. For example, she may consistently place her fingers a bit too high or a bit too low, which can mimic a slightly out of tune string. Although unlikely, she may also consistently finger the wrong notes in such a way that every note is shifted higher or lower. However, if the series of notes that she is playing include open string notes, then the melody will sound different.
It may be easier to just download an iPad or android app and tune it for her yourself. You will most likely only have to adjust the fine tuners (turn knobs attached to the front bottom end of strings). You can tune it using pizzicato (pluck the string with your finger) rather than with the bow.
The bottom line is there are so many ways for her to play a piece of music incorrectly that you want to take the tuning issue out of the equation.
