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    Originally Posted by Cookie
    Kids will tell you when they are over their heads either verbally if they are comfortable with it or by their behavior. Just like they will say when stuff is too easy and boring and they want more of a challenge. But there was no harm in his group trying. They were exposed to it. They may try it later and like it. They know a bit about more than the first three chapters because my son enthusiastically would talk about the book.
    While I'm glad to hear that this group of kids was able to tell the teachers when the reading was over their heads. This is not a blanket statement that works for all kids. My older DD would not tell us when she didn't understand things or books were over her head. It was very frustrating and difficult to work with. Kids have different personalities. Some kids can be very good at hiding LD's for example.

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    Originally Posted by bluemagic
    Originally Posted by Cookie
    Kids will tell you when they are over their heads either verbally if they are comfortable with it or by their behavior. Just like they will say when stuff is too easy and boring and they want more of a challenge. But there was no harm in his group trying. They were exposed to it. They may try it later and like it. They know a bit about more than the first three chapters because my son enthusiastically would talk about the book.
    While I'm glad to hear that this group of kids was able to tell the teachers when the reading was over their heads. This is not a blanket statement that works for all kids. My older DD would not tell us when she didn't understand things or books were over her head. It was very frustrating and difficult to work with. Kids have different personalities. Some kids can be very good at hiding LD's for example.

    Maybe not a blanket statement but 5th graders, low SES, many ESOL, bright, but not profoundly gifted kids, with no LD's... given a 10th grade classic literature book are going to say...this sucks, is boring and is too hard (if in fact it does suck for them, is too hard and therefore they aren't getting any enjoyment). Especially if the learning climate is a safe environment for them to feel like they can share their thoughts and feelings without shame or repercussions.

    Like a second grader who has a parent who wants him to read Narnia (or listen to Narnia) before he is ready. Or a third grader who is reading War and Peace in Russian because Johnny is reading it and parents want him to keep up with Johnny.

    They might not say anything but change behavior, in fact my son just kept rolling over and going to sleep each night during Narnia...I gave up after I correctly listened to his change in behavior. A behavior he never willingly did when there was a story to listen to.

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    Originally Posted by Cookie
    Originally Posted by bluemagic
    Originally Posted by Cookie
    Kids will tell you when they are over their heads either verbally if they are comfortable with it or by their behavior. Just like they will say when stuff is too easy and boring and they want more of a challenge. But there was no harm in his group trying. They were exposed to it. They may try it later and like it. They know a bit about more than the first three chapters because my son enthusiastically would talk about the book.
    While I'm glad to hear that this group of kids was able to tell the teachers when the reading was over their heads. This is not a blanket statement that works for all kids. My older DD would not tell us when she didn't understand things or books were over her head. It was very frustrating and difficult to work with. Kids have different personalities. Some kids can be very good at hiding LD's for example.

    Maybe not a blanket statement but 5th graders, low SES, many ESOL, bright, but not profoundly gifted kids, with no LD's... given a 10th grade classic literature book are going to say...this sucks, is boring and is too hard (if in fact it does suck for them, is too hard and therefore they aren't getting any enjoyment). Especially if the learning climate is a safe environment for them to feel like they can share their thoughts and feelings without shame or repercussions.

    Like a second grader who has a parent who wants him to read Narnia (or listen to Narnia) before he is ready. Or a third grader who is reading War and Peace in Russian because Johnny is reading it and parents want him to keep up with Johnny.

    They might not say anything but change behavior, in fact my son just kept rolling over and going to sleep each night during Narnia...I gave up after I correctly listened to his change in behavior. A behavior he never willingly did when there was a story to listen to.
    You seems to be very lucky and have a great teachers. Unfortunately not all teachers have the training, skill or time to recognize the tells some kids give. I did exactly what you did with the Narnia when trying to find challenging but interesting books for my kids in elementary school. It can be tricky finding challenging but interesting books for advanced readers. As to no LD's.. how do you know? 2E kids can be very good at hiding their LD's until they get to older grades.

    As for 5th graders saying a book sucks may be because of other issues than a book is too hard for them. It might just be subject matter or the book while a classic might still be a boring slow read. I still remember when my 5th grade reading teacher had us read Don Quixote. (Looked it up lexile level 1410L) I still remember hating that book. It's not that I couldn't read books at that level but as a 5th grader I wasn't at all interested in an old crazy guy bumbling around medieval Spain and wasn't mature enough to appreciate it's humor.

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    Went to "curriculum night" at the school and they mentioned the "good fit books" and/or "just right reading level" and luckily I was sitting in the back because I couldn't help rolling my eyes. Like I said, they assess using F&P and have the letter system, but I can't complain too much because last year (in second grade) they put DS at something like "V". DS still says the books are "baby books" but at least it's not outrageously off. And for independent reading time they let him read his books that he brings from home (and they don't care what they are). DD is more the one I'm worried about because it seems like they may be keeping her at the same level without giving her the proper higher level assessment. Maybe it depends on the teaching team. And I'm sure it also depends on the district philosophy which is why things are more outrageous elsewhere and other schools like the OPs are much more rigid. Anyway, they did mention something about how the kid should not be missing more than 5 words per page if they read aloud, because then the book will be too frustrating and comprehension will go down as well. And they said there is tons of "research" stating that kids make more progress if they are at this "just right level"

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    I quite regularly make 5 mistakes a page when reading to my kids. But the ability to read to 95 % accuracy when being tested isn't the same as when reading the rest of the time.



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    A number of people suggested that I advocate for change. What I would like to see- is her having access to more interesting/ challenging books at school. Given the rigid system we have in place, any tips for advocacy? I looked at the articles on the home page. I have OLSAT scores (school administered) and some very old outside testing. But whether or not she passed or failed an F & P level is extremely subjective- and I am guessing they will say that either a) she is not ready to move on - in their twisted estimation or b) they would like her to "read more broadly" at this very low level or c)they will eventually get to testing kids at higher levels once everyone is tested at the low levels (read December). What can/should I ask for? And how could I go about getting it?

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    Mom123, what I posted is what I did to get my child appropriate books... The system was not changed that's just how I got them to see that my child needed more and how I got them to give it. The result was the teacher and I worked together to bring in books good/interesting/challenging enough for my son to read during independent reading time. My advice is my posts.

    Last edited by Irena; 09/25/15 05:40 AM.
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    When DS was in first grade, we had a RazKids account (given through the school but you can also sign up on your own, whether there is a free trial or not, I don't know). When I got the line about his "comprehension" and "making inferences" and all of that, I printed out his quiz results. The quizzes are supposedly testing things like making inferences and other reading standards. The program tells you what each question is testing and whether the kid got it right or wrong. He was doing a level T or something on RazKids and had very good accuracy on the quizzes, meanwhile the teacher was giving him books that were way below a T. Now granted, the level system wasn't exactly the same but I don't think most teachers even realize that. I sent in a summary of his quiz results for the higher levels and after that the teacher stopped talking about his troubles with "making inferences". My point---if you have anything like that at all, which documents reading ability at a higher level, then you have evidence that their own assessment results must be incorrect. You can also find flunecy tests online and you could give that to your child (to calculate things like correct words read per minute...F&P has guidelines for each letter).

    I also had Woodcock Johnson Ach. reading results which were high, and shared those with the teacher (she used to be a sp.ed teacher so luckily had some understanding of what those results meant, and the grade level equivalents). I don't think it's worth it to pay out of pocket for expensive tests, but just think about what evidence you may already have. Does the school do MAP or other standardized achievement testing for reading?

    It's an uphill battle because I think the teachers are brainwashed, or else their hands are tied.

    There is research article showing that gifted kids achievement scores for reading (MAP) actually go up the same during the summer, as the school year because in school they are reading below their level (basifcally they are not learning anything in school beyond what they would learn reading on their own).
    https://www.nwea.org/content/uploads/2014/08/Data-Award-Karen-Rambo-Research-Brief_0.pdf
    Here is the conclusion:
    " I hypothesized that gifted students would
    grow more slowly during the school year
    than average students but more quickly than
    average students over the summer. In
    reading, I basically saw identical trajectories
    for gifted students during the school year
    and during the summer. And the growth
    during the school year was much less for
    gifted students than average students.
    Whatever these students did in the summer
    was as effective at increasing their reading
    skills as their time in school and that
    increase was still less than the typical
    increase experienced by an average student.
    While this is what I hypothesized, I was
    surprised at how dramatic the results were. Educators can do a couple of things to
    address the slower growth from gifted
    students during the school year. First, they
    can make sure that students are reading at
    challenging levels. We should be pushing
    these kids to read more difficult text challenging
    them. Secondly, we should
    seriously consider accelerating students into
    higher grades so that they will automatically
    encounter more difficult text. Also,
    accelerating advanced students in
    mathematics also makes a lot of sense given
    the slower growth rate for gifted students in
    mathematics."

    I sent this to one of the teachers saying "Hey, isn't this interesting?!" Never got a response from that teacher, but she did allow DS to bring in his own books.

    Last edited by blackcat; 09/25/15 07:12 AM. Reason: accuracy
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