Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums College Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be

I understand that you may disagree with his sources, however that does not mean that he "embellished."

These stats refer to 2012-2013, with the webpage stating it was last updated in May 2015. This postdates his 2012 paper; These stats did not exist at the time.

1) Sorry you found his paper misleading, for some it was clear from the first reading, this may depend, in part, on one's knowledge base and lived experiences. It may also depend on watching the video and/or reading his paper, rather than commenting prior to seeing what he has said.
2) Does he claim to be a journalist?

Nor was that stated. Apples and oranges.

Thank you for this interesting link, summarizing college graduation rates in 6 years, for part-time and full-time, traditional and non-traditional students who enrolled in college in 2007, 2008.

Since that time, six more classes of students have enrolled, and times have changed: The economy has tanked, with a recession starting in 2008, largely affecting the "middle class". As companies close, older "non-traditional" students may be seeking degrees and/or studying for a second career.

Additionally, a portion of the middle class with well-prepared children may be seeking financial subsidy for their children's college education (as discussed on the forums, including several posts in the recent thread on College choices).

"Redistribution" has been a part of the political platform of the president 2008-2016.

All these factors may impact college persistence and retention rates. College enrollment and completion seem to be based on educational preparedness, financial preparedness, and personality/motivation.

I would be interested to see the trends over time.

You're wrong, as HowlerKarma pointed out. Webster's dictionary defines higher education as post-secondary (after high school) and the Wikipedia entry on higher education specifically lists community colleges as being part of that class. You can decide that a sophomore at UC Davis is in "higher education" but that a sophomore at the local community college isn't, but that doesn't make you correct.

In addition, the statistic from the video said that a quarter of those that enroll in "higher education" after high school will get a bachelor's degree. This number was actually an overestimate:



Many, many students start higher education at a community college, because the costs are so much lower. Many of them fail because they don't possess the skills and knowledge necessary to succeed in college. For educators as a group to claim that they don't count as being in "higher education" and that the real graduation rate is 60% is, IMO, simply claiming that the education emperor is wearing lovely new clothes. But of course, that is what American educators do.

This is interesting to a California native, because you can make an argument about Berkeley and Stanford being quite close to each other in terms of being "elite," though it makes sense that people who get richer would go to Stanford, given Berkeley's reputation as a left-leaning institution. (ETA: Hey! There's Berkeley right underneath Stanford if you read the article and get the full list. All seems right with the world there.)

On the southern end of the state, though neither of these institutions enjoy what would be considered "elite" status, you can't make a very good argument of institutional quality of UCLA versus USC. UCLA enjoys a far better educational reputation, and it's not even close. Furthermore, USC is located in a bad part of Los Angeles, while UCLA is in the tony western part of the city, where most of the city's elites live, so you'd think the wealthy residents would send their kids there. UCLA does not have a left-leaning reputation like Berkeley does. So how on earth are so many wealthy people coming from USC?

Where USC is truly elite, however, is sticker price (hence the common moniker "University of Spoiled Children"). They're an outrageously expensive private college. This is a trait they share, incidentally, with Stanford... and Penn... and rest of the Ivies on the list. Coincidence??

No, of course community college is higher ed. However, I don't think we should consider all CC students who don't get a 4-year degree (and instead receive a certificate or AA) to be failures! That rather goes against this guy's point, does it not?

I consider the fact that so many kids enroll in college intending to get a BA, only to drop out, to be a monumental failure of our education system (and our society at large). This, I believe, was also video guy's point: kids need to know what their options are, many don't, and they drop out (in debt).

You said:


It sounds to me like you were excluding CC students.

If people in education circles quote the 60% figure, they're the ones being dishonest. You can't ignore community college students --- an overwhelming majority of whom, in contrast to your claim, start out intending to get a BA.

This instantly annoys me because I see it as a way of sweeping the truth under the rug, and ignoring inconvenient truths about our education system is something I perceive as being a big problem among educators.

They quote the 60% figure about students intending to get a bachelor's and starting at an institution that grants them.

I think it's questionable to include CC students who said they wanted a 4-year degree when talking about the drop-out rate. I would never include a CC student who obtained a AA degree or certificate but who said they wanted, but did not yet have, a BA in drop-out stats. Would you?

BTW, I actually don't disagree with any of this. In fact, I agree with it. It just really, really bothers me when people overstate their case or play ring-around-the-rosy to make a mnore dramatic point.

Of course I would if they set a BA as a goal and didn't reach it 6 years later (remember, 81% of incoming CC students said they wanted to get a BA).

Finishing your sophomore year at a 4-year-college is the rough equivalent of an AA. By your logic, would you then not count students dropping out in their junior or senior years?

And either way, many or most CC students saying that they want a BA end up not even getting an AA. That same site I linked to said that only 39% of students entering higher ed get an AA or a BA in 6 years.

Throwing in the "getting an AA" thing just muddies the water anyway. The point is this: fewer than 20% of students who enter higher ed end up with a BA. Fewer than 40% end up with an AA. This is bad, and the students are not the only ones who are responsible for the problem.