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    #208277 12/23/14 07:08 PM
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    Val Offline
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    Honestly? I wouldn't send my child to a school where vaccination rates are below herd immunity levels.

    The meaning of "vaccines aren't 100% effective" is that they may not work in a very few people or they may not provide complete protection in some people. The personal risk to a vaccinated person is low. However, a vaccinated person may have a mild-ish cold-like illness that's actually measles (or something else). This person can spread the disease to someone who's very vulnerable (a young infant or a person who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons). The 3 infants who died of measles this year were all too young to be vaccinated when they contracted the disease. This is really serious stuff, and again, our schools are failing badly by not teaching it.

    The thing is that it's very easy underestimate the risk of disease and overestimate the risk of vaccines. Many people see conditions like measles and mumps as being benign diseases of childhood. They're not. Measles almost killed my sister in the very early 1960s (she developed encephalitis). Before vaccinations, it killed, literally, millions of people every year and left permanent damage in many more.

    So no, I don't think that (personal belief) unvaccinated children should be allowed to attend school, public or private. Medical exemptions are different, which is why everyone else needs to be vaccinated: herd immunity protects the ones who are allergic to the components of the shot or who have another problem precluding vaccination. The risk the unvaccinated people pose to (many others) is simply too high.


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    David Gilmour "Pink Floyd" wrote a damning indictment about waldorf after his kids attended, keep in mind this is not a gifted parent talking - http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/TelegraphGilmour.html


    Personally I looked very seriously into it as I had confused it for one of the schools that allows kids to learn at their own pace without a curriculum. Sadly no, more like children are expected to conform to aged behaviours in a non conformist manner, plus there seemed to be very strong overtones of religion/philosophical/pagan beliefs which is fine if that's what you're into - we aren't.

    I really wanted to buy into it, had I had regular kids I prob would have enrolled them, but in my opinion they claim to work with the whole child but are quite happy to ignore a large part of that child's needs if it doesn't fit their ideals.

    As for vaccines, can we start a diff thread for that? I have very strong beliefs as well and I am always interested in reading what others have to say on this topic but I don't want to hijack this thread.

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    While Waldorf may extend into home life, many acknowledge that government schools do as well. Private/parochial/independent schools may also exert an influence on home life.

    An article which you may find interesting is "Knitting is more important than homework", which shares a mom's comparison of various educational experiences, and her emerging thoughts and reflections over time.

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    I actually have no problem with their no-media-at-home policy. Families who don't want their kids immersed in Disney and Star Wars culture don't have a lot of options. It's EVERYWHERE, even at the most crunchy private school or homeschool group. I think it's fine for a school to say "We're the place for families who don't watch that stuff. If that's not you, choose a different school."

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    Originally Posted by Mahagogo5
    David Gilmour "Pink Floyd" wrote a damning indictment about waldorf after his kids attended, keep in mind this is not a gifted parent talking - http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/TelegraphGilmour.html


    Personally I looked very seriously into it as I had confused it for one of the schools that allows kids to learn at their own pace without a curriculum. Sadly no, more like children are expected to conform to aged behaviours in a non conformist manner, plus there seemed to be very strong overtones of religion/philosophical/pagan beliefs which is fine if that's what you're into - we aren't.

    I really wanted to buy into it, had I had regular kids I prob would have enrolled them, but in my opinion they claim to work with the whole child but are quite happy to ignore a large part of that child's needs if it doesn't fit their ideals.

    Exactly what we decided.

    Quote
    As for vaccines, can we start a diff thread for that? I have very strong beliefs as well and I am always interested in reading what others have to say on this topic but I don't want to hijack this thread.


    I have to say that it IS related when one talks about certain kinds of alternative schooling-- and the problem is, as Val states, one of belief (which is largely irrational, and can be amply demonstrated to be so, in fact) versus rationality. Again, this is an issue which recurs for parents and gifted children on a fairly regular basis. This is just one more example.

    Originally Posted by Val
    Medical exemptions are different, which is why everyone else needs to be vaccinated: herd immunity protects the ones who are allergic to the components of the shot or who have another problem precluding vaccination.

    THIS. So, so, SO much.

    I know someone who lost a child to influenza. For real. He was nine years old.

    Having loved and lived with more than one person who was seriously immunocompromised, I can also say for certain that some people don't get to "choose" for themselves what their personal risk tolerance is on the subject of vaccine-preventable illnesses. The rest of us do it for them every time we go out in public.

    You can guess how good the outcome is when someone is too ill to continue their chemotherapy regimen.

    frown







    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    My screen name offers a clue to my assessment of the Waldorf method.

    I would not endorse the Waldorf system for any child, gifted or otherwise. The system, as I am sure you are aware, owes its pedagogical and ideological approach to Rudolph Steiner's anthroposophy.

    Among the beliefs of anthroposophists is the view that humans are continuously reincarnated within the same body, and that developmental milestones correlate to the timeline of the individual along the trajectory of reincarnation. I spoke with a local anthroposophist naturopathic "doctor", who advises one of the largest Waldorf schools in Canada, and she highlighted the positive value of children learning to read after age seven because of the view that reading readiness is driven by jaw development and the eruption of adult molars. The spiral curriculum used by Waldorf schools is meant to align with the believed 7 year cycles of reincarnation.

    You might also be disturbed to learn that anthroposophy views intellectualism as an offshoot of the temptations of Zoroastrian devil Ahriman. Steiner also identifies Lucifer's disobedience of God as the fundamental event from which the pursuit of knowledge stems. You might wish to read this book by Steiner to understand his view of the roles of Lucifer and Ahriman in driving human cognition. The anthroposophical ideology that underlies the Waldorf method is deeply anti-intellectual at its roots, grounded in mythology and a series of "communions" Steiner purported to experience between himself and "the Christ".

    http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/0880103752


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    #208287 12/23/14 10:15 PM
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    I vehemently disagree with the anthrosophical teaching on bullying and black crayons. I very much dislike the push to conform in artwork and whilst we have fairies in our garden there are most definitely none inside the printer. So, yeah, Waldorf can keep their anthrosophy, I'll teach my own kids to knit, let them draw black and asian people and continue to send them to a school which teaches them to read without the use of homework.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I'm just saying I'm not afraid of my son getting an illness he's vaccinated for. Sure, there is some chance, but it's slim and he is a very healthy kid. I wouldn't avoid world travel either, but there is a risk there as well. Do I think everyone should vaccinate barring medical reason not to? Yeah, sure I do. But I can only make that decision for my child. I will not penalize other kids whose moms made a different choice.

    My son is in a special class 4 afternoons a week for kids with behavior problems/asd. Vaccination rates are low. I'm not going to keep him out of the program based on that. Would you suggest I not send my son because of the % of kids not vaccinated?

    Assuming we're not going to get a new thread to discuss this. You could find out if he's high risk or low risk to be in that group with a blood test to check his antibody titer. Most people don't check because if you didn't seroconvert after the normal course of vaccines there's not much to be done, but we do it routinely for rubella so non-immune pregnant women can be aware, and in this situation it could help you decide the real risk for your son.

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    some people don't get to "choose" for themselves what their personal risk tolerance is on the subject of vaccine-preventable illnesses. The rest of us do it for them every time we go out in public

    YES

    Last edited by Tallulah; 12/23/14 10:17 PM.
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    Thanks for that Aquinas. Really interesting. I know nothing about Waldorf schools as they were never an option to be explored for us.

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    Val Offline
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    "Conform to nonconformist behaviors."

    That is a brilliant description.

    Hmm. My kids learned to read before they had lost their first teeth. I presume they are scarred for life now. Bad mommy!

    Meanwhile, in Australia:

    Quote
    [Mr. Pereira] has withdrawn both his boys from ... the school, citing a range of concerns that culminated with a teacher's assessment of his younger son.

    "She thought his soul wasn't fully incarnated yet, which was strange thing for me to hear at a parent-teacher interview," he said.

    "And then she pulled out some drawings that he'd done which showed him, I guess, looking down, like a plan view of what he was drawing.

    "And she used this as evidence that his soul was hovering over the earth and looking down on the earth and so, therefore, she felt that he wasn't quite ready to move into the following year."

    Last edited by Val; 12/23/14 10:23 PM.
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    In one Australian state there are a number of public schools that run a Steiner stream. That was the case in the story that Val referenced. it seems bizarre but true.

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