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    Dottie #20658 07/20/08 05:11 AM
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    It's good that they were willing to give more to him, even if you had to twist a few arms at the start to get it. I'm not sure even arm-twisting would have worked in our district. They're really resistant.


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by Kriston
    Yes, the public school district. They claim 40% of their population tests as GT, or 130 or above on *either* achievement or IQ tests in *either* math or verbal. (I think. I'm not an expert about what they accept, so take some of this with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how the achievement tests factor in exactly, but I know they give them and use them, as that's how they do the state-mandated GT IDing in 3rd grade.)

    I AM sure of that 40% figure because the school official in charge of the GT ID process spoke to our parents' group. She was questioned long and hard about it, as you might imagine!

    I think some districts use only full scale IQ to determine GTness, and that would miss a large chunk of kids. The non-GAI scores often pull down the FSIQ. Also accepting achievement test scores and not just IQ probably changes things...although maybe this is how most districts ID? I don't imagine they give out IQ tests, do they? Dunno.

    Our public school district serves nearly 8000 students according to their webpage.

    And in case it matters, DS7 went to K and about 6 weeks of 1st grade there before we ran into serious problems and pulled him out for homeschooling. He will be HSd again this year, so we're not currently in the district.

    Just as well, I should think. If you can afford to HS go for it! I wish I could...

    The District is just padding their nest. That's fine if it helps them sleep better at night and if it keeps parents off their backs. grin

    That 8,000 population would need to have +/- 3,200 kids with a FSIQ of 130+.

    Missing a "large chunk of kids" is the whole point, lest Giftedness be leveled downward. It shouldn't be Special Olympics where everyone gets a medal.

    Oh, they're lucky I'm not in the District. <evil grin>



    Harrison Bergeron
    by Kurt Vonnegut (1961)

    I'd like you to read this famous story and think about whether Nietzsche wasn't on to something when he criticized the naive idea of human equality.

    THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren�t only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General.

    Some things about living still weren�t quite right, though. April, for instance, still drove people crazy by not being springtime. And it was in that clammy month that the H-G men took George and Hazel Bergeron�s fourteen-year-old son, Harrison, away.

    It was tragic, all right, but George and Hazel couldn�t think about it very hard. Hazel had a perfectly average intelligence, which meant she couldn�t think about anything except in short bursts. And George, while his intelligence was way above normal, had a little mental handicap radio in his ear. He was required by law to wear it at all times. It was tuned to a government transmitter. Every twenty seconds or so, the transmitter would send out some sharp noise to keep people like George from taking unfair advantage of their brains.

    George and Hazel were watching television. There were tears on Hazel�s cheeks, but she�d forgotten for the moment what they were about.

    On the television screen were ballerinas.

    A buzzer sounded in George�s head. His thoughts fled in panic, like bandits from a burglar alarm.

    �That was a real pretty dance, that dance they just did,� said Hazel.

    �Huh?� said George.

    �That dance � it was nice,� said Hazel.

    �Yup,� said George. He tried to think a little about the ballerinas. They weren�t really very good � no better than anybody else would have been, anyway. They were burdened with sashweights and bags of birdshot, and their faces were masked, so that no one, seeing a free and graceful gesture or a pretty face, would feel like something the cat drug in. George was toying with the vague notion that maybe dancers shouldn�t be handicapped. But he didn�t get very far with it before another noise in his ear radio scattered his thoughts.

    George winced. So did two out of the eight ballerinas.

    Hazel saw him wince. Having no mental handicap herself she had to ask George what the latest sound had been.

    �Sounded like somebody hitting a milk bottle with a ball peen hammer,� said George.

    �I�d think it would be real interesting, hearing all the different sounds,� said Hazel, a little envious. �All the things they think up.�

    �Um,� said George.

    �Only, if I was Handicapper General, you know what I would do?� said Hazel. Hazel, as a matter of fact, bore a strong resemblance to the Handicapper General, a woman named Diana Moon Glampers. �If I was Diana Moon Glampers,� said Hazel, �I�d have chimes on Sunday � just chimes. Kind of in honor of religion.�

    �I could think, if it was just chimes,� said George.

    �Well � maybe make �em real loud,� said Hazel. �I think I�d make a good Handicapper General.�

    �Good as anybody else,� said George.

    �Who knows better�n I do what normal is?� said Hazel.

    �Right,� said George. He began to think glimmeringly about his abnormal son who was now in jail, about Harrison, but a twenty-one-gun salute in his head stopped that.

    �Boy!� said Hazel, �that was a doozy, wasn�t it?�

    It was such a doozy that George was white and trembling and tears stood on the rims of his red eyes. Two of the eight ballerinas had collapsed to the studio floor, were holding their temples.

    �All of a sudden you look so tired,� said Hazel. �Why don�t you stretch out on the sofa, so�s you can rest your handicap bag on the pillows, honeybunch.� She was referring to the forty-seven pounds of birdshot in canvas bag, which was padlocked around George�s neck. �Go on and rest the bag for a little while,� she said. �I don�t care if you�re not equal to me for a while.�

    George weighed the bag with his hands. �I don�t mind it,� he said. �I don�t notice it any more. It�s just a part of me.

    �You been so tired lately � kind of wore out,� said Hazel. �If there was just some way we could make a little hole in the bottom of the bag, and just take out a few of them lead balls. Just a few.�

    �Two years in prison and two thousand dollars fine for every ball I took out,� said George. �I don�t call that a bargain.�

    �If you could just take a few out when you came home from work,� said Hazel. �I mean � you don�t compete with anybody around here. You just set around.�

    �If I tried to get away with it,� said George, �then other people�d get away with it and pretty soon we�d be right back to the dark ages again, with everybody competing against everybody else. You wouldn�t like that, would you?�

    �I�d hate it,� said Hazel.

    �There you are,� said George. �The minute people start cheating on laws, what do you think happens to society?�

    If Hazel hadn�t been able to come up with an answer to this question, George couldn�t have supplied one. A siren was going off in his head.

    �Reckon it�d fall all apart,� said Hazel.

    �What would?� said George blankly.

    �Society,� said Hazel uncertainly. �Wasn�t that what you just said?�

    �Who knows?� said George.

    The television program was suddenly interrupted for a news bulletin. It wasn�t clear at first as to what the bulletin was about, since the announcer, like all announcers, had a serious speech impediment. For about half a minute, and in a state of high excitement, the announcer tried to say, �Ladies and gentlemen � �

    He finally gave up, handed the bulletin to a ballerina to read.

    �That�s all right �� Hazel said of the announcer, �he tried. That�s the big thing. He tried to do the best he could with what God gave him. He should get a nice raise for trying so hard.�

    �Ladies and gentlemen� said the ballerina, reading the bulletin. She must have been extraordinarily beautiful, because the mask she wore was hideous. And it was easy to see that she was the strongest and most graceful of all the dancers, for her handicap bags were as big as those worn by two-hundred-pound men.

    And she had to apologize at once for her voice, which was a very unfair voice for a woman to use. Her voice was a warm, luminous, timeless melody. �Excuse me � � she said, and she began again, making her voice absolutely uncompetitive.

    �Harrison Bergeron, age fourteen,� she said in a grackle squawk, �has just escaped from jail, where he was held on suspicion of plotting to overthrow the government. He is a genius and an athlete, is under�handicapped, and should be regarded as extremely dangerous.�

    A police photograph of Harrison Bergeron was flashed on the screen � upside down, then sideways, upside down again, then right side up. The picture showed the full length of Harrison against a background calibrated in feet and inches. He was exactly seven feet tall.

    The rest of Harrison�s appearance was Halloween and hardware. Nobody had ever worn heavier handicaps. He had outgrown hindrances faster than the H�G men could think them up. Instead of a little ear radio for a mental handicap, he wore a tremendous pair of earphones, and spectacles with thick wavy lenses. The spectacles were intended to make him not only half blind, but to give him whanging headaches besides.

    Scrap metal was hung all over him. Ordinarily, there was a certain symmetry, a military neatness to the handicaps issued to strong people, but Harrison looked like a walking junkyard. In the race of life, Harrison carried three hundred pounds.

    And to offset his good looks, the H�G men required that he wear at all times a red rubber ball for a nose, keep his eyebrows shaved off, and cover his even white teeth with black caps at snaggle�tooth random.

    �If you see this boy,� said the ballerina, �do not � I repeat, do not � try to reason with him.�

    There was the shriek of a door being torn from its hinges.

    Screams and barking cries of consternation came from the television set. The photograph of Harrison Bergeron on the screen jumped again and again, as though dancing to the tune of an earthquake.

    George Bergeron correctly identified the earthquake, and well he might have � for many was the time his own home had danced to the same crashing tune. �My God �� said George, �that must be Harrison!�

    The realization was blasted from his mind instantly by the sound of an automobile collision in his head.

    When George could open his eyes again, the photograph of Harrison was gone. A living, breathing Harrison filled the screen.

    Clanking, clownish, and huge, Harrison stood in the center of the studio. The knob of the uprooted studio door was still in his hand. Ballerinas, technicians, musicians, and announcers cowered on their knees before him, expecting to die.

    �I am the Emperor!� cried Harrison. �Do you hear? I am the Emperor! Everybody must do what I say at once!� He stamped his foot and the studio shook.

    �Even as I stand here �� he bellowed, �crippled, hobbled, sickened � I am a greater ruler than any man who ever lived! Now watch me become what I can become!�

    Harrison tore the straps of his handicap harness like wet tissue paper, tore straps guaranteed to support five thousand pounds.

    Harrison�s scrap�iron handicaps crashed to the floor.

    Harrison thrust his thumbs under the bar of the padlock that secured his head harness. The bar snapped like celery. Harrison smashed his headphones and spectacles against the wall.

    He flung away his rubber�ball nose, revealed a man that would have awed Thor, the god of thunder.

    �I shall now select my Empress!� he said, looking down on the cowering people. �Let the first woman who dares rise to her feet claim her mate and her throne!�

    A moment passed, and then a ballerina arose, swaying like a willow.

    Harrison plucked the mental handicap from her ear, snapped off her physical handicaps with marvelous delicacy. Last of all, he removed her mask.

    She was blindingly beautiful.

    �Now� said Harrison, taking her hand, �shall we show the people the meaning of the word dance? Music!� he commanded.

    The musicians scrambled back into their chairs, and Harrison stripped them of their handicaps, too. �Play your best,� he told them, �and I�ll make you barons and dukes and earls.�

    The music began. It was normal at first � cheap, silly, false. But Harrison snatched two musicians from their chairs, waved them like batons as he sang the music as he wanted it played. He slammed them back into their chairs.

    The music began again and was much improved.

    Harrison and his Empress merely listened to the music for a while � listened gravely, as though synchronizing their heartbeats with it.

    They shifted their weights to their toes.

    Harrison placed his big hands on the girl�s tiny waist, letting her sense the weightlessness that would soon be hers.

    And then, in an explosion of joy and grace, into the air they sprang!

    Not only were the laws of the land abandoned, but the law of gravity and the laws of motion as well.


    They reeled, whirled, swiveled, flounced, capered, gamboled, and spun.

    They leaped like deer on the moon.

    The studio ceiling was thirty feet high, but each leap brought the dancers nearer to it. It became their obvious intention to kiss the ceiling.

    They kissed it.

    And then, neutralizing gravity with love and pure will, they remained suspended in air inches below the ceiling, and they kissed each other for a long, long time.

    It was then that Diana Moon Glampers, the Handicapper General, came into the studio with a double-barreled ten-gauge shotgun. She fired twice, and the Emperor and the Empress were dead before they hit the floor.

    Diana Moon Glampers loaded the gun again. She aimed it at the musicians and told them they had ten seconds to get their handicaps back on.

    It was then that the Bergerons� television tube burned out.

    Hazel turned to comment about the blackout to George.

    But George had gone out into the kitchen for a can of beer.

    George came back in with the beer, paused while a handicap signal shook him up. And then he sat down again. �You been crying?� he said to Hazel.

    �Yup,� she said,

    �What about?� he said.

    �I forget,� she said. �Something real sad on television.�

    �What was it?� he said.

    �It�s all kind of mixed up in my mind,� said Hazel.

    �Forget sad things,� said George.

    �I always do,� said Hazel.

    �That�s my girl,� said George. He winced. There was the sound of a riveting gun in his head.

    �Gee � I could tell that one was a doozy,� said Hazel.

    �You can say that again,� said George.

    �Gee �� said Hazel, �I could tell that one was a doozy.�









    "Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve." -Roger Lewin
    Dottie #20661 07/20/08 05:35 AM
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    Originally Posted by Dottie
    I see a lot of local data, and while I rarely see achievement scores over 130 for "ND",

    Well, that's because Kriston's District took 'em all!

    Sorry, couldn't resist. smile


    "Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve." -Roger Lewin
    RPM9 #20663 07/20/08 05:49 AM
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    Originally Posted by RPM9
    Missing a "large chunk of kids" is the whole point, lest Giftedness be leveled downward. It shouldn't be Special Olympics where everyone gets a medal.


    Well, agreed to the second sentence, but not the first. I think kids who score a 130 on PRI or VCI ARE GT! I was saying that that schools who don't ID these kids miss a large chunk of GT kids who need services. (I think that's possibly what Dottie was getting at, too, with her statement that ND kids only very rarely score in the 130 range on achievement testing, though I don't claim to speak for her.) I think these 130 PRI or VCI kids are MG, they generally need more from school than ND kids do, and they should be served by GT programs.

    I just think that if they are served, then there needs to be recognition that HG+ kids need even more!


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by Kriston
    Originally Posted by RPM9
    Missing a "large chunk of kids" is the whole point, lest Giftedness be leveled downward. It shouldn't be Special Olympics where everyone gets a medal.


    Well, agreed to the second sentence, but not the first. I think kids who score a 130 on PRI or VCI ARE GT! I was saying that that schools who don't ID these kids miss a large chunk of GT kids who need services. (I think that's possibly what Dottie was getting at, too, with her statement that ND kids only very rarely score in the 130 range on achievement testing, though I don't claim to speak for her.) I think these 130 PRI or VCI kids are MG, they generally need more from school than ND kids do, and they should be served by GT programs.

    I just think that if they are served, then there needs to be recognition that HG+ kids need even more!


    Our District differentiates between "Talented" [the bright kids - the 20-40%] and "Gifted" [top 1-2%]. They are VERY firm with the two separate and distinct terms.

    Talented kids get "Enrichment". Full-blown Gifted kids, should they test and qualify as such, are then part of the Student Needs Assessment Process [SNAP]. They receive a personalized SLP [Student Learning Plan] document which is developed and overseen by SNAP Coordinators and Upper District Administration.




    "Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve." -Roger Lewin
    RPM9 #20668 07/20/08 06:21 AM
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    That is the problem with our district. They do this 40-50% identification (that's at our school - not every school has these percentanges) and once you're identified your that's it. There's no LOG identification. I actually think kids that are id-ed GT at schools with a lower percentage sometimes fare better becauase of the individual treatment. But if your a MG child in our school, you are most likely very happy.

    Even our gifted magnet doesn't even to seem to use LOG as much as I was hoping. It's very much a MG school and you have to push hard if your child is more than MG.

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    Our school does NOT lump T with G. They are two VERY separate and clearly defined beasts. It's a good thing for the District because the Gifted percentage stays correct and manageable.

    If you allow the line to blur then services for the top kids suffer or become meaningless and you end up with, essentially, nothing or perhaps just some District self-back patting.

    This is the "Gifted Issues Discussion Forum". I wasn't looking for the "Lets Smudge the Lines so Everyone Can be Included and Get Services Forum".


    "Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve." -Roger Lewin
    RPM9 #20673 07/20/08 07:22 AM
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    Originally Posted by RPM9
    Our school does NOT lump T with G. They are two VERY separate and clearly defined beasts. It's a good thing for the District because the Gifted percentage stays correct and manageable.


    I'm not sure I'm clear on the distinction you're making here. What constitutes T? What constitutes G? How are these distnguished? Are you saying IQ=G and achievement=T?

    I'm not saying I disagree, I just don't understand the distinction as you're using it. Could you clarify?

    Originally Posted by RPM9
    This is the "Gifted Issues Discussion Forum". I wasn't looking for the "Lets Smudge the Lines so Everyone Can be Included and Get Services Forum".

    I don't think this is a fair statement. I certainly never said this, nor would I agree with it even a little. It doesn't reflect what I've seen of posts on this forum either. (The typical criticism is that we aren't sensitive enough to MG kids because so many of us who post a lot have HG+ kids!)

    But I do think that MG kids ARE GT kids, and they need services, too. Not as extensive as the services required by HG+ kids, obviously, but services nonetheless. Do you disagree with this statement?

    In fact, I would argue that our schools are generally much better equipped to handle MG kids, TRULY serving their needs through the typical pull-out and enrichment programs. Whereas I would claim that these same typical GT programs are utterly, woefully inadequate for HG+ kids. But as these kids are in the top .5% of the population, I do have some sympathy for the schools. It's a lot easier to serve the MG kids than it is to do what's needed for that tippy top.

    That's why we're homeschooling, frankly. I saw how hard the fight was going to be to get the services DS7 needed, and it just wasn't worth it to me. There aren't enough kids like him in the schools, and the resistance was just going to be too strenuous. Would I like him to be served? YES! (I'm tempted to put a "Duh!" there, but I'll refrain. wink ) But I had to weigh the likelihood of getting his needs met against the effort I'd have to make to get that accomplished. HSing is easier.


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by Kriston
    [quote=RPM9]Our school does NOT lump T with G. They are two VERY separate and clearly defined beasts. It's a good thing for the District because the Gifted percentage stays correct and manageable.


    I'm not sure I'm clear on the distinction you're making here. What constitutes T? What constitutes G? How are these distnguished? Are you saying IQ=G and achievement=T?

    Gifted is IQ based.

    Talent is, well, talent.

    DS can play guitar. He would qualify as talented. Talent can also be sports skill or artistic ability ...



    "Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve." -Roger Lewin
    RPM9 #20675 07/20/08 07:40 AM
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    Well, sure. But that's a generic definition of talent that doesn't seem relevant to your point or our discussion. I assumed you were talking about *academic* talent, no? I mean, we're not testing for athletic or music talent, and they're not usually included in GT programs.

    So please correct me if I'm understanding wrong: you think schools have to IQ test all kids in order to ID GTness, and only IQ test?

    You know, when they do that, they usually have to use group IQ tests for the sake of fiscal responsibility and convenience, and those group tests like the CogAT tend to miss LOTS of truly GT kids, even some HG+ kids. DS7 took one of them and just squeaked in as GT, though he's a DYS kid. Group IQ tests are not very good tests. Achievement tests help catch some of the truly GT kids that those lousy group IQ tests might miss. I think that's a good thing, as the problem is with the instrument, not with the kid.


    Kriston
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