Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy How do you know if it's really too hard?

HowlerKarma while I usually agree with you I'm going to disagree that any HG kid can just jump into some of the AP classes. It entirely depends on the subject, the kid, and how the class is taught. I agree that the course might not be "too hard" intellectually for a 11 year old HG kid. But they still might need to have previously learned a certain body of data, say in the case of Chemistry basic stocimetry. Would you suggest a kid take AP Calculus that has never seen Algebra 2 or Trig? It's not necessary to take an official course with that name but they do need to have been exposed to those topics.

This may depend on how this school/teacher is implementing this course. Not all AP courses are implemented the same way at all schools. What I don't know is what prerequisites THIS school expects for THIS class. Perhaps they just expect "middle school chemistry". We don't have that class so I'm not sure what material this covers. And perhaps what this parent needs for her child to be a success is the knowledge that she skipped certain information, and find some resources that can fill in those gaps.

In my experience with my kids and in a college classroom, the student isn't ready for a class if she forgets what she's been taught/needs too many reminders, and has to have her hand held in order to get through most problems (even on review). Another sign that a student isn't ready for something is the need for too much background information. If someone has to spend a lot of time explaining points A, B, and C so that the student can finally understand what a paragraph, lesson, or problem is about, that's not good.

AP science classes are designed around the idea that students already know a lot of basic ideas. They also move very quickly, which doesn't give a newbie much time to catch up, much less internalize ideas. So it very well be too much for someone who hasn't taken chemistry before.

Honestly, my kids have been in this situation once or twice, and we let them drop the classes. If your daughter is miserable, what's the point? She's only 11, so she has plenty of time ahead of her.

Hang on, though-- there's a reason why I said that.

She has had some of the foundation coursework, and no, this is NOT the AP Chem course-- it's AP Bio. Besides, the argument that one wouldn't have a child take AP Calc without algebra II is secondary, here-- since calculus is the exception now rather than the rule within the 'prerequisite' structure many places w/r/t AP coursework-- that is, there is no "honors Calculus" to be taken as a prerequisite for taking "AP Calculus." That is the way that the prerequisites work for a good many AP courses now, however.


Also, the syllabi for all AP courses are run through CB for approval, so they are far more uniform than any other high school coursework is. Therefore, while I agree that the implementation is different in different locations, the content and pacing and coverage is surprisingly uniform since all the students nominally take the same AP test at the end of the year. The prerequisites being different, therefore, is a local thing that may or may not actually serve a purpose. In my experience, it's mostly used as a gating mechanism, since it allows the school to give "permission" for the students (mostly MG+) who OUGHT to be taking those courses to still take them "without the prerequisites" which is the way that they were originally intended to work. That is, that the course was a substitute for the high school offering, and meant for those students who truly needed a greater challenge and were ready for the cognitive demands of the higher-level thinking involved.

Ahem.

The tiered prerequisite thing seems, IMO, to be more of an artifact of getting more students INTO the AP coursework that colleges, their parents... basically "everyone" thinks that college-bound students should have. Not all of those kids are ready, and so the way to get them decent grades in AP coursework is to have them run at the same material twice. If that makes sense. They're used to spiraling, and this allows for AP classes to operate with spiraling as well (though of course, college coursework doesn't, generally speaking). In other words, the "prerequisite" material SHOULD have been covered adequately before having taken a year of the non-AP version of the course. There is a reason why AP Calculus doesn't require Calculus at the "honors" level, KWIM? The real underlying problem is grade inflation and watering down of preparatory secondary coursework in a larger sense, which then leaves most students quite ill-prepared for AP anything unless they've seen the material previously.

All of that said-- this is why I said what I did:



Also-- know that this first semester is where that lack of chem is likely to be felt most keenly. In the zoology and systematic botany portions of the course, and in the ecology units-- not so much an issue. It is possible that the second term content will be a much better fit for her. I'd talk to the class instructor about the concerns, myself.

So yes, by all means fill in the chemistry gaps (as it sounds that Ivy has been doing already). Honestly, that gap-filling skill, and getting used to the discomfort that comes with needing to do it? That seems like a good thing to cultivate in a child who has been accelerated like this. It's going to happen again, right? So the question I'd ask is "if not now, then when? Why is that a better plan?"




My other concerns are echoed by MoN and Dude. It's the asynchrony-- particularly the emotional maturity to be more sanguine about that gap-filling thing, and more adaptable to outside forces shaping the nature and style of the learning happening. That may just come with additional maturity.

I think that Zen Scanner's idea has a lot of merit, as well-- it could well be a matter of lack of confidence due to the class format. Without an interactive classroom experience, my DD tends to assume that her struggles with material are disproportionate and not shared by her classmates, who must have mastery while she is slogging through things. A flipped classroom experience like the one described would be a pretty toxic cocktail for my DD that way.

If her needs as a learner are not being met well due to the course's basic architecture, that is a good reason to not continue, IMO. But it needs to be addressed overtly, for the reasons that aeh has made clear. It's not a "failure" so much as a mismatch and a matter of having tried it, and moving on to something that is a better fit. The reasons are not about your child's basic aptitude or suitability at that point, but about her developmental arc and learning style not being well-aligned with this particular class at this particular time.

Thank you, thank you, thank you all! You guys are just a big pile of awesome!

In reading through the responses, we were able to begin to separate the executive function issues from the content issues and compare those to her experience in regular classes versus this kind of inverted classroom. I can see that she's still learning to "lean in" when it gets tough (which is her experience in math this year), but that this particular class is like a perfect storm of mismatch (too much complexity, too fast, inverted class, etc.).

From this context, we were able to have another, more productive conversation with DD about the situation. One that moved us away from the knee-jerk perfectionist "this is hard, I can't do this" responses and toward some clarity.

It seems like she's still passionate about biology (writing the lab report was the most fun she's had in the class). She expressed a desire to find a different AP Biology class or study biology on her own through the videos she's already been working through. So that's a very positive sign.

She also pointed out that she had the same teacher in the middle school level version of the same class and learned a ton and loved it... but it was a direct teaching model (read the handouts, discuss in class, follow with a lab). And that she just felt lost without the in-class context. Not that I think students will always have the option of dropping a class that's a bad fit, instruction-wise, but that having it be your most challenging class isn't the best idea either.

So after some discussion, we decided on a swap. She could drop AP Bio for the next term, and pick up an online Intro Chemistry class specifically for gifted kids (in class lecture and Q&A format, only through skype). This class should be challenging, but the syllabus describes is as "when you're done with this, you will be ready for AP Chem or first year college Chem" so it's the class she needs to fill in that science gap. There will be regular homework and at-home labs (which can't be too interesting, but we could always spice them up a bit).

We took aeh's advice to structure this as a mismatch in teaching style coupled with bad timing, rather than "this was just too hard." We also made it clear that we expected the same application of effort through the rest of the year in math and chemistry. And finally, we said we'd look for another AP Biology option. One more year and that problem will solve itself anyway, because she'll be able to enroll in our local community college for high school level science (13 can't come fast enough for her).

Also HK, this:

"Without an interactive classroom experience, my DD tends to assume that her struggles with material are disproportionate and not shared by her classmates, who must have mastery while she is slogging through things. A flipped classroom experience like the one described would be a pretty toxic cocktail for my DD that way."

... is exactly what she's been expressing. "Everyone understands this but me." The fact that she's three years younger than everyone else in the class and everyone knows it doesn't help either. We don't see this same insecurity in her other classes BTW. In history (where again, she's at least 3 years younger) she's perfectly confident, even standing on a chair to debate a particularly tall opponent during a class exercise.

Thank you again. There is literally no one who DH and I can discuss this with IRL. Because the response is always "of course it's too hard, what were you thinking pushing her like that!"