Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments More inclusive "GT" classes in middle/high schools

IQ test scores are normed to have standard deviation of 15 or 16. If the deviation scale is comparable to the mental_age/chronological_age scale (which is why a standard deviation of 15 or 16 was chosen), then in a class of 6-year-olds, the +1 SD children have a mental age of 6*1.15 = 6.90 and the -1 SD children have a mental age of 6*0.85 = 5.1. So in 1st grade you have a spread of almost 2 years of mental age between +1 SD and -1 SD children, who are certainly not outliers. The within-school standard deviation of IQ may be less than 15, compressing the range, but OTOH chronological ages vary, causing another source of variation. I don't think dividing children into three groups is overdoing things. Elementary schools commonly have 3 or 4 classes per grade.

This article touches on a lot of the problems our school system has:


I'm amazed that anyone even needed to do a study to figure that out. How could anyone possibly think that disadvantaged students would succeed in a class that was years beyond their current skill levels (seven years according to another study cited in this article)? This approach just makes these kids even MORE disadvantaged. I'd skip class, too, if it was that far over my head.


This guy makes it sound like the evil schools were deliberately excluding students based on either their family income or their races/ethnic groups as a way of slamming the gates of education squarely in their faces.

Sorry, but this is wishful thinking. I'm not trying to deny that prejudicial attitudes and actions exist in this country, but in this case, I have to doubt that there was a systematic and successful large-scale movement to exclude low SES and minority students from algebra as recently as the 2000s.


He's admitting that placing too many unqualified students into classes that they're not ready for ends up watering down the class and diluting the learning for the kids who belong there --- while still not giving skills to the unqualified kids. Again, forcing disadvantaged students into classes they aren't ready for just makes them MORE disadvantaged by making it even harder for them to catch up.

ETA: I agree with 22B. A LOT of this stuff, including algebra-for-all, is about politics and not about what's best for the students.

Hear, hear.





I have also been stunned that anyone could actually believe that simply dropping students into coursework that they are ill-suited to, and even less well-prepared for is somehow an... opportunity for those students. ???

I'm baffled by that sort of thinking. Truly. I'll go even further than Val does, though, and call it what I think it actually is--

magical thinking at its finest.


And for the record, there are neither magnets NOR GT schools here. Cheers. What this means in practical terms is that there is no GT in secondary here due to the egalitarian thinking behind algebra-for-all. Here, of course, it's AP-for-all. Which has a lot in common with the term "free-for-all" but that is beside the point, I think.

Hello Everyone,

Thank you to those of you who have been posting appropriately.

This is the second time the behavior in the forum has resulted in a reminder that we all need to be friendly and courteous to others. If one more complaint is received and this behavior continues the thread will be closed.

I hope everyone has a nice safe rest of their week.

I just spent a very long time, and expended significant thought and effort, typing a very detailed explanation, but it has disappeared. It is unbelievably cruel.

Sometimes people and children do rise to a higher level based on what is expected of them or how they are treated. Not always, obviously.

And here's the thing. There seems to be an unexamined belief that tracking and grouping will be done correctly. Come on now. I've seen plenty of people posting here saying their GT child has been inappropriately placed for reading or math. If this happens to our kids, what happens to less obvious kids? What happens to kids whose parents lack the time, privilege, or willingness to fight? How many people here had their children retested or tested for 2E because the system somehow did not place them where they thought they should land?

Do we really believe all those "low" and "middle" kids are appropriately placed?

For that matter, I'm not sure about permanent "gifted" placement either.

Let me just say once more that I am not some huge detracking advocate. I feel pretty unsure about AP for all, etc. But I also see why it is proposed. I think there has got to be a better way than either of these systems.

Could someone please explain to me what's going on. I am absolutely stunned.

The weird thing was she was talking about 5 to 7 year olds. I understand the problem with 13 year olds but if you can't get enthusiasm from 5 to 7.year olds you need to look within yourself not at other 5 to 7.year olds.

I would like to add that in a public forum, people will express opinions that some people may not agree with or like. I don't think that we need to "tell on" these people and request censorship of unpopular opinions because some of us don't like them. I don't agree with a lot of opinions here, but I deal with them by refuting them with facts, not suppressing them. IMO, this approach enriches the debate. Squelching debate doesn't.

The problems with our education system are multi-factorial, as are the problems that a lot of students face. Politically motivated decision-making has a negative effect on all students, and stating the facts of how decisions are made is not, in my opinion, racist or worthy of being suppressed. Sometimes we have to face discomfiting facts in order to solve complex problems.

I can tell you they are not, just based on the students who transfer into our system on IEPs--which is already a slice of the population with more attention and more placement-relevant data than the other 85% (on nation-wide average) or so of students. We have had to re-place numerous students, in either direction, sometimes fairly dramatically. These are not even necessarily complex cases.