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    I just wanted to mention how incredibly useful I have been finding this thread - thanks all of you!

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    Thanks for all the great advice and support. Sometimes I feel lost in what to do and hearing that others have similar struggles somehow makes it easier.

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    So - I'm re-reading this thread in light of something interesting that happened last night. We are deep into Greek mythology around our house, and last night were reading (me reading out loud) a story in which Mnemosyne was a character. She is the titan who embodied memory, and she's the origin of our word "mnemonic." And there was another critter whose name I can't recall but it had 50 heads and 100 eyes and some crazy name with a million syllables.

    And I realized - I had to force myself to stop and sound out the names. And I had to do it very slowly and mechanically. It took so much effort that I lost the context of the story and had to re-read the sentence a couple of times. Egad - perhaps I have/had a bit of stealth dyslexia myself! Because now I think of it, I often realize as I'm reading that I say the wrong word out loud, but it doesn't matter because the word I used fits the context.

    Now - I use words for a living (I'm a lawyer) and my scores on verbal parts of standardized tests have always been very strong. BUT - I wonder if I went back to the very beginning I'd find that I had some of these same struggles my son has. Of course there weren't all these early standardized test back in those dark ages. But I have a strong suspicion.

    And so for the happy wrap up - IF I had the same issue as my son and IF it was because I my reading skill development was asynchronous and IF DS follows the same trajectory, he may have Zen Scanner's "epic paradigm shift" after the "one secret thing clicks" ... and tada!

    Maybe I'm putting too much hope into the asynchronous deficits evening out. But hey - all the teachers say the kids "even out" after third (or fifth, or whatever) grade. Maybe they do - but in a way the teachers didn't think of. Maybe the struggles emanating from asynchrony will ease as all the brain parts get to the finish line and sync up as they would in a NT kid. And my sweet little PG guy will have a little bit less to struggle against.

    A Mom can hope, right?

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    Originally Posted by aeh
    It is also known that one can re-train them, to some extent, to decode differently ("normally"), and that this does have payoffs in terms of reading fluency (and consequently, comprehension). ... Of course, after a certain point in brain development, it is much more difficult to alter these patterns. It is also difficult to find trial words to "force" the application and practice of decoding skills sufficient to automatize orthographic mapping, when an individual has already memorized an enormous sight vocabulary using what would normally be a highly inefficient memory method, but which works with an exceptional rote memory.

    I was re-reading this thread while prepping myself for my next update/ batch of questions back to the forum about dyslexic DD8 (or is she? but that's for the other thread), and couldn't resist adding a footnote, based on our experience with learning how to decode over the last month.

    I can't answer the LD/ asynchrony question. Was she not yet ready to decode when she started reading, but now she is? Or was she never going to be able to learn without explicit phonological teaching? Who knows. But what we see now that we've started an O-G based program is nothing short of stunning for us. She is clearly ready *now* to decode.

    I swear I can actually SEE the neurons branching out in her brain, connecting the parts she's been using to read, with those previously unused parts needed to decode. Our home-based "All About Reading (AAR)" uses large quantities of word lists without context, and even the sentences are so odd that context is limited help. The only way she can get through is to look really carefully at every single letter, AND also at every single word in the sentence. So for the first time ever, she is forced, absolutely forced, to look at what's actually on the page, letter by letter, word by word. I thought the organic chem text idea was brilliant, but AAR is proving remarkably effective too.

    The impact on her reading in one month is just amazing. Many other posters on this forum have also described incredible and fast jumps in learning ability from Lindamood Bell and other programs.

    Do we need to force them out of their alternate strategies? DD was reading on grade level up to grade 3, but then hit her wall. She needed a plan B. But others can and do certainly live without this skill. My DH, for example, does not appear to decode; his whole world is sight words. Yikes - how much brain power does that require, even granting that he is the clear source of DS's 99.9th percentile working memory scores?! (We've discovered this lack of decoding through a variety of interesting home experiments, including trying to read DS's math text, upside down, after too many glasses of wine....) (It was the text that was upside down - it wasn't THAT many glasses of wine.) DH reads beautifully and fluently out loud, but when those Greek god and monster names show up in Percy Jackson (yup, he got caught by the Greek gods too, Sue), he says it stops him dead in his tracks for a good minute or two while he tries to figure out the word is. DH is an excellent reader, but not fast. He reads large amounts daily for work purposes, but rarely reads for fun. For him, reading is a useful means, but not particularly pleasurable end in and of itself.

    Recognizing that every kid is different, my gut reaction to this highly unscientific study of my family is that if you can manage to drag them back and force them to learn to decode before it's impossible for them to change their habits, it may really make their lives easier in the long run. Perhaps it could provide the difference between reading that's adequate to get by, and reading more commensurate with and supporting their VCI? We're finding AAR remarkably effective at forcing DD to decode rather than use her alternate strategies. But she did address the tedium and return to K-level skills through extensive (and time-consuming) integration of imaginary play and creative approaches (it takes a whole lot of time to go through a word list if for each word she must create a drawing on the white board, usually with some kind of pun built in...). Even so, daily after-school remediation has been tough. And then recent cryptic report card comments sent me into a panic as to whether DS10 - a dude of very different temperament - might be an even stealthier dyslexic. The idea of trying to do a similar repetitive, back to basics approach with him frankly gave me a serious case of of the screaming heebie-jeebies.

    YMMV, to say the least. But if you have a kid who seems to have by-passed decoding, my personal and highly inexperienced 2 cents worth is to suggest you try decoding 101 if you possibly think you can get away with it.

    P.S. Last night, we finished our first lesson in Level 2 (wahoo, we graduated a level - I am so proud of her for plowing through it; those lists of fluency words are brutal. I was actually going to post this in the brag thread). I asked DD if she was ready to go upstairs so Daddy can read her Percy Jackson to her. "Mommy, would it be OK if we did another reading lesson instead?" Miracle. MIRACLE! She, too, can truly feel those neurons connecting, and see for herself what's already happening to her reading. So many smiles, I'm bursting.

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    I am so happy for you and your DD, Michelle!


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    That's fabulous Michelle. Your experience parallels ours. DD12 has retained her reading gains made at age 10, even if she's subsequently lost some of the base level skills that were introduced through OG. DS9 is on a similar track (through through All About Spelling).

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    Lovely to have the cheers from you both! We wouldn't be anywhere near this far along without all of the shared experiences and advice from the forum, and aeh's additional expert help in understanding the data. Lots left to do, but I'm spinning less and finding my way forward more.

    Quick practical question geofizz and aeh, as you've both used All About Reading/ Spelling. We've just started Level 2 reading, and could now start Level 1 Spelling (which I have waiting for us in the cupboard). We've got good momentum with the reading, and limited time (since this is after-schooling). Our temptation is to stick with just the reading for a while, and postpone the spelling until she's reading closer to grade level. But I don't want to skip spelling if it really enhances the reading remediation rather than diverts from it. Any suggestions from your own experience?



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    DS isn't (yet) doing any reading remediation. You might want to take my advice with a dose of salt - my kids read and comprehend well above grade level, but with no phonological processing involved. As a result, I'm not entirely sure how well our experience would translate.

    That being said, DS has made great progress on AAS, though we're still going through the ID process at his school so that he will hopefully get a more complete OG there starting in January.

    We're now in the early stages of level 3 AAS, having brought him up to grade level (from ~2.0 ish). He's suddenly writing spontaneously. My main criticism of AAS is that some of the rules, particularly those introduced in level 2, are cast as decoding rules, not encoding rules. So particularly for the syllable division rules, we've had to rewrite the rules -- instead of "when two consonants come between the vowels, the syllables are divided between the consonants" we have to rewrite as "when you hear two consonant sounds in the middle of a two-syllable word, put the first sound with the first syllable, and the second sound with the second syllable."

    My basic approach is to remediate the greatest frustration point. In our case, spelling was limiting so much for DS. We have other work to do for him with regards to writing, but spelling has been the biggest problem, so that's where we're focused. I anticipate that around the end of level 3, he'll be enough closer to classroom instruction to learn there, and something else will likely crop up as needing work. Of course, by the time we're done with level 3, I hope to have him on an IEP!

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    We took a similar approach to geofizz's, remediating spelling because that seemed to be the main gating item limiting access to other skills and content. My kid was fairly far along in AAS when AAR was released, so we haven't used AAR (other than the casual way #1 is using it to play school with #3). There is a pretty decent correspondence between the two of them, with Level 1 of each covering essentially the same phonograms.

    My inclination would be to stick mainly with AAR as long as she is eager to do so, since time is scarce. Maybe you could start with AAS in the summer, when you won't have as much competition for time from school. You'll probably blow through the first level or two quite quickly, by that time, given a nice solid foundation in reading.

    You could also check on the All About Learning forums. They are not very active in the back-and-forth way this one is, but their product support people are very responsive, and speak from personal experience homeschooling with the products.


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    Thanks geofizz and aeh - much appreciated!

    My gut feeling was to focus on one area in the short term, and it helps to know that approach seems reasonable given your experiences.

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