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    Page 12 of 14 1 2 10 11 12 13 14
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Originally Posted by 22B
    But what about larger groups at the upper levels. What about top 5%, top 10%, top 20%, top 50%. Or what about students between percentiles 75 and 90? Why shouldn't all students at all levels be entitled to be taught at their approximate level? There should be classes catering to all levels, and placement in these classes should be purely meritocratic. This merit should not be compromised to fulfil other types of quotas. As long as everyone is being taught at their approximate level, how could it possibly matter if there are measurable demographic differences between the classes? I've never seen any convincing argument not to do what I'm suggesting.
    I agree with you. Group by ability whenever it makes sense, which I think is as early as KG, and let the demographic chips fall where they may. Make the grouping flexible, so that children can move to different groups at least annually, and so that grouping is done by subject. However, even if ability grouping is done right, the presence of racial and SES gaps in academic achievement will mean that some groups will be very underrepresented in the top classes. Civil rights leaders will condemn these "disparities" and will not accept the main explanation that I would offer. In order to have realistic and effective educational policies, certain realities need to be widely understood. In the mean time, affluent parents self-segregate by moving to areas with "good schools" and send their children to after school programs that are not concerned with diversity.


    Except that if *ability* grouping is done correctly, the higher level classes actually should be more representative of the school's overall demographics. The higher level classes will likely skew a little in favor of Asian/white and higher SES, but but not by enough that those classes should be entirely Asian/white and higher SES, unless of course the rest of the school is as well (Space City area outside of Houston for example).

    The problem is that ability grouping is very rarely done correctly. The students are grouped by *achievement* instead, politics plays too large a part (teachers' children, the children of their friends, and the students of higher SES who "look" the part of a "smart" kid get in at higher levels IIRC), and teacher pleasers are chosen over gifted trouble makers. That is why civil rights leaders often object, because the grouping process itself is biased, not that ability grouping is.

    And I say all this as one who vigorously supports ability grouping (when done well), because without it I would possibly have quit school in 1st grade. smile

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    What rules??! We can have absolutely no idea what the criteria are so that we can self-censor. Everyone has to second guess what words and topics are allowed. This has a chilling effect on any dialog.

    This is the problem with the USA period; free and open dialog descends into one party shutting the other down by pouting and being offended instead of refuting the others argument with facts, presumably because there is an absence of facts that can do that.

    This actually a large part of why this board exists - were the gifted and gifted education seen for what they are we would already have our kids in schools more optimally aligned with their needs. Instead, because a disproportionate percentage of certain segments of the population, even accounting for SES, do not typically qualify for genuine gifted programs the 'gifted' programs end up getting watered down to be more 'inclusive'.

    Last edited by madeinuk; 11/08/14 05:04 PM.

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    Can anyone recommend a more lightly moderated gifted board that shares any of the good properties of this one? I am saddened to hear that 22B has been banned, and feel it's time to think about where else there is to talk. I am aware of http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented - UK-centric and low traffic, but the closest I know of right now. I suppose it's easy enough to start one, too, but I'd rather not take that on unless I must.


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    I'd like to just say for the record that I did not report 22B's posts to the moderator and don't agree with his being banned, although I don't have a problem with the board being moderated to some degree.

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    On the topic at hand, I'd like to say that I walked into a parent gripe session that went something like this...

    "The homework load and content of the GT Math class is unreasonable."

    and

    "My kid is spending 1 -2 hours a night on homework. I know the teacher says quit after 30 minutes, but then my kid would be so far behind."

    and

    "I had to get a tutor for my kid just to keep from sinking."

    ...

    Meanwhile, my kid (and his friend) complain daily about being given such low-level work. It takes him about 10 minutes to finish homework each night. So, clearly the range in the GT class is HUGE!

    Last edited by Mom2Two; 11/09/14 03:01 PM.
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    This happens in my DD's gifted magnet as well--some kids struggle terribly with the math, others with the writing. IQ of 130+ actually still does not sort all that well, surprisingly (at least to me). It points to the important of finer-grain differentiation, which may or may not be achieved through tracking and grouping. I actually think there is no grouping specifically because parents would freak out over it and protest placement in the lower group.

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    I read these threads with great interest and enjoy the range of perspectives offered. A great strength of a forum such as this is diversity of opinion. There are hard questions around gifted education that deserve frank discourse.

    I think it unfortunate that 22B has been banned. I have been put well outside my comfort zone by the various posts of various posters, historically, but I have always left feeling prodded to think more deeply about the issue. That strikes me as the point, ultimately.

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    Originally Posted by CoastalMom
    I read these threads with great interest and enjoy the range of perspectives offered. A great strength of a forum such as this is diversity of opinion. There are hard questions around gifted education that deserve frank discourse.

    I think it unfortunate that 22B has been banned. I have been put well outside my comfort zone by the various posts of various posters, historically, but I have always left feeling prodded to think more deeply about the issue. That strikes me as the point, ultimately.

    I agree. Being able to discuss things we cannot discuss in real life and disagree is what makes these forums valuable. I didn't see anyrhing objectionable but by the time we wake up it is late afternoon over there so I miss a lot. I will miss 22B though.

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    Hello Everyone,

    Yes, it is sad to see 22B be banned. It's not something that we like to do. However, there were a few posts made on this thread that were reported to us as inappropriate, and both posts were from 22B. Everyone on here has the right to report anything if it makes them feel uncomfortable. That is when action is taken. If nothing is reported, then no action will be taken, because we assume that there is nothing offensive going on. The Davidson Institute does not have the time or the resources to monitor every post that is made, so we must rely on all of the users to help us keep this forum in good shape.

    That being said, this topic has gone off track so I will be deleting it. Feel free to start a new one with similar topic of "More inclusive "GT" classes in middle/high schools" if you would like to continue a conversation about it.

    Thank you.

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    Originally Posted by Lewis
    Everyone on here has the right to report anything if it makes them feel uncomfortable. That is when action is taken. If nothing is reported, then no action will be taken, because we assume that there is nothing offensive going on.

    I hope that the mere fact of a post being reported is not what ultimately decides the course of action, but rather the substantive content. We none of us have the right to not be offended.


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