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    I cannot imagine doing AP physics without understanding intregration, at least. Let alone chemistry where differential equations are necessary.
    Is high school/entry-level to college really this remedial in this country'? Really?


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    So, you're saying high school without calculus is remedial? Or, high school without early calculus (what grade?) is remedial? I don't know.

    I did not take AP physics, but I did take chemistry (not AP--I don't think it was available).

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    Quote
    My DD9 was accelerated too much in math, IMO, in a gifted magnet, and she breezed through or completely skipped certain concepts that are very important (like decimals/fractions)...

    This is why I have ultra hesitant to move my DD onto (even pre) Algebra I made her do the SG books + workbooks with all that repitition just because I was worried about gaps. She had finished SG K thru 5+ word problems by the time she was 8.5 and begged for pre-algebra but I yielded not because I was so afraid that she hadn't taken it all in. We then did the Lure of the Labyrinth to fill time and ensure she was ready before starting pre-algebra with AoPS about a month after her 9th birthday.

    Last edited by madeinuk; 06/04/15 11:36 AM.

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    Ultramarina, I also wondered about this. I never took anything beyond basic Chemistry, and Diff Eq were not required. Does this mean that in other countries kids take three semesters of Calculus and then Differential Equations before they attempt Chemistry?

    I guess my impression was that in many other countries that math and science were not taught as distinct courses of Algebra I/Geometry/Algebra II or Biology/Chemistry/Physics, but rather a bit of each is learned each year, and perhaps the supporting math is learned alongside the science - but that you did not need a full blown Calculus course to complete HS science.

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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    SG books + workbooks

    Is SG = Singapore Math, or something else?

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    So, you're saying high school without calculus is remedial? Or, high school without early calculus (what grade?) is remedial? I don't know.

    I did not take AP physics, but I did take chemistry (not AP--I don't think it was available).
    According to the AP Chemistry Course and Exam Description the math prequisite for AP Chemistry is a second-year algebra course. Here is what they say about AP Physics 1 and 2, which replaces the old AP Physics B that was supposed to be comparable to a non-calculus-based course taken by students not majoring in physics or engineering.

    http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/exam/exam_information/225589.html
    Quote
    Is there a prerequisite for AP Physics 1?
    Unlike AP Physics B, which recommends a prior high school physics course, no prior course work in physics is necessary for students to enroll in AP Physics 1. Students should have completed geometry and be concurrently taking Algebra II or an equivalent course. Although the Physics 1 course includes basic use of trigonometric functions, this understanding can be gained either in the concurrent math course or in the AP Physics 1 course itself.

    Is there a prerequisite for AP Physics 2?
    Students entering AP Physics 2 need to have developed mastery of the learning objectives described in the AP Physics 1 curriculum framework to be prepared for AP Physics 2. Taking the AP Physics 1 course or a comparable introductory course in physics will satisfy this prerequisite. Students should also have taken or be concurrently taking precalculus or an equivalent course.
    AP Physics C still employs calculus: AP Physics C Course Details
    Quote
    This course ordinarily forms the first part of the college sequence that serves as the foundation in physics for students majoring in the physical sciences or engineering. The sequence is parallel to or preceded by mathematics courses that include calculus. Methods of calculus are used wherever appropriate in formulating physical principles and in applying them to physical problems. Strong emphasis is placed on solving a variety of challenging problems, some requiring calculus.
    I wonder about labeling AP Physics 1 a college-level course worthy of college credit. Doing so will increase the number AP exam fees students pay.

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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    I cannot imagine doing AP physics without understanding intregration, at least. Let alone chemistry where differential equations are necessary.
    Is high school/entry-level to college really this remedial in this country'? Really?
    NONE of the science classes at my DS's high school require Calculus. Algebra II is the highest class required for any science class and this includes AP Physics.

    AP Board offers two tracks of AP Physics:

    Physics 1 (full year mechanics without Calculus)
    Physics 2 (second year without Calculus, include Fluids, E&M)

    OR
    Physics C - Physics with Calculus. Two parts to the AP test, can be done in one year or two.

    Honestly I think it's stupid that my district doesn't offer Physic C, since they have plenty who take AP Calculus as 11th graders. And physics is actually EASIER with Calculus. But we can't convince the science department. Honestly the new Physics 1 course that started just last year is EASIER than the non AP Physics class since it's really really slow.

    Calculus is NOT a High School class. It's a college level course. The fact that more than 50% of the students take AP Calculus at DS's high school and many High Performing High Schools does not make it a High School level course.

    First year Chemistry at the local Research University doesn't require Calculus. But to get a Chemistry major you need Physics with Calculus, so if you hadn't already passed Calculus.

    Last edited by bluemagic; 06/04/15 12:49 PM.
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    I think a major problem here is one of terminology. I know that in previous conversations, the thing I took called "Trig/Pre-Calculus" turned out to be the same thing others took called "Calculus AB."

    Both of these have the word "calculus" in their names, and both precede a more advanced course ("Calculus" in my case, and "Calculus BC" for others), so when we say that calculus is a requirement, what, exactly, do we mean?

    I had a horrible physics teacher and ended up dropping the class pretty quickly, so while I'm not aware of any differential equations in the topic, that doesn't mean they're not there. I did go far enough in physics to get to vectoring (and then saw it again in crazy detail in post-high school education), and found that it relies heavily on trigonometry... so, whatever you call the class that teaches trig, that would be a required course for whatever level of physics does vectoring.

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    Sorry UM or any others that I may have inadvertently upset.

    I did not mean to say that Algebra is remedial per se. But compared to many other countries the Maths that kids know finishing at 18 in the US is way behind that of kids outside of the US unless we want to include countries like Nigeria, that is.

    Admitedly, I finished 'high school' having done A levels in the UK. The calculus A/B here appears to cover stuff equivalent to an O level or gifted 15 year old/NT 16 year old in the UK. Anyone taking science A levels without A level Maths tended to get bogged down sometime in the second year of the 2 year course. I had been under the mistaken impression that AP classes were like A levels.

    A levels are real 'college prep' classes which is why most Europeans are puzzled by the fact that 'AP' is a higher level class than mere 'college prep' because in Europe traditionally only the rich and stupid/academically inclined regardless of family income went to college.

    My mistake there - but this does rather highlight why there are so many H1 visas getting printed. Outside of the U.S. most kids doing STEM subjects are starting college at a much higher level then their US peers....

    Last edited by madeinuk; 06/04/15 04:47 PM.

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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    Admitedly, I finished 'high school' having done A levels in the UK. The calculus A/B here appears to cover stuff equivalent to an O level or gifted 15 year old/NT 16 year old in the UK. Anyone taking science A levels without A level Maths tended to get bogged down sometime in the second year of the 2 year course. I had been under the mistaken impression that AP classes were like A levels.

    A levels are real 'college prep' classes which is why most Europeans are puzzled by the fact that 'AP' is a higher level class than mere 'college prep' because in Europe traditionally only the rich and stupid/academically inclined regardless of family income went to college.

    My mistake there - but this does rather highlight why there are so many H1 visas getting printed. Outside of the U.S. most kids doing STEM subjects are starting college at a much higher level then their US peers....
    Not sure that is quite right but I'm not sure I know everything about the English system to compare either. (I'm not upset.. just trying to clarify terms.) I'm not sure it's fair to compare the two A level years with the last two years of H.S. I would have to look this up, but I'm under the impression that the A level years are more equivalent to last year of H.S. and first year of university. (Edited to add looking it up the last two years of H.S. & 6th form years do seem to cover the same age. I still think they roughly cover the material of senior year & first year of university.)

    Keep in mind that U.S. "AP" Classes are kind of in a no man's land. Many of them aren't like any class actually taken at a University. For example AP US History, most university history classes don't cover the entirety of U.S. history in one semester course but rather specialize. This class is more a cross between an Honors High School class and one challenging enough to be consider a university course. AP's are 'supposed' to be university first year courses that are taken IN High School.

    We do have a difficulty is defining terms and it's largely what's causing confusion in answering this question. This goes for Algebra as well as Calculus. The only way to really compare would be to look at subject matter vs. other subject matter. It's complicated in the U.S. because each state in the past has had their own standards. The textbook publishers have text books labeled by state to handle these discrepancies. Different districts teach the classes differently. And different school districts offer different classes. I know school districts and private schools that offer multi-variable Calc, but my district doesn't

    Last edited by bluemagic; 06/04/15 04:50 PM.
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