Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Still frustrated with math instruction

Dd is 8 (149 FSIQ), in 3rd grade, and going on her 2nd year in a gifted class. (FWIW her PRI was 151 and WMI was 141 but her VCI was only 124). Last year they used Everyday Math (accelerated one year so she did 3rd grade math as a 2nd grader) and the kids were basically given a math journal and expected to work/learn independently with maybe a lesson at most twice a week for about 15 min. They also did khan academy in class when they were done with their workbook pages. Dd likes and does well with khan academy. Everyday Math was a bit of a disaster. (FWIW dd is more of a visual learner and is stronger in math than in reading and writing)

This year (same teacher) they are switching to several different math resources. One of them is Project M3, which they haven't yet started, and a website called Ten Marks. Ten Marks is another disaster. She's not doing well on it (only at a 3rd grade level).

Thankfully I can actually log on and see the assignments and see what she misses. Often times it's because I think it's too wordy and she just picks an answer (they are mostly all multiple choice questions) and only reads the first part of the answer. FWIW she's careless and rushing through the assignments. Other times I find the questions aren't very clear... i.e. There is a box with an array filled in and the question reads "Which array would have the same number number (actually reads number twice) of shaded squares as the given array of shaded squares?". Other issues are that it relies on kids accurately counting arrays with small items or a splatter of dots and counting the total and telling whether or not the number is odd or even, which dd gets wrong because it's really hard for my 8 year old to count large numbers of tiny objects spaced closely together on a computer screen accurately.

I'm sure anybody would probably look at her results and think this kid is probably not gifted and doesn't need acceleration. However, after working with her a little through the summer I know she's capable of much more. She can do long division with divisors that are double and triple digits, multiplication of numbers such as 248 x 395. She can reduce fractions and find the GCF with fractions such as 17/51 in her head very quickly. She loves to look at the clock and reduce the time (if possible) as if they were fractions while riding in the car. And currently she's adding and subtracting fractions with unlike denominators in her head and often times in one step... including reducing and changing the improper fractions to proper fractions (this is without visuals and just looking at the numbers). The way she can work numbers in her head in one step amazes me and I'm usually 2 steps behind her. She loves this stuff, and tells me she wishes she could do this at school. However, based on her Ten Marks results that won't be happening any time soon (She's scoring mostly 60-75%, sometimes 100% on ten question assignments).

I'm really struggling with what to do. On the one hand I feel she does have areas of weakness (i.e. reading carefully, comprehension of story problems) that she should work on. But I also feel that this program doesn't work well, for her anyway. She hates it, and would rather do the math that I give her or Khan academy. How do I get the teacher to see that holding dd to the assessments/assignments on Ten Marks is probably not the right level for dd in math when dd doesn't even do well on them? I wish I could just homeschool, but dd struggles socially and really needs a classroom environment to help her with that.

I think many here have previously opined that EM might work well for kids who are more verbal - perhaps it did not play to your DD's strengths and a different math program will be better for her. What you write is troubling - where was the instruction from teachers last year??? Your poor DD!

Your DD sounds like she has some real strengths that could help her excel in math. I think she needs a different math class.

I have a screen shot somewhere showing that TenMarks thinks 4x6 is 26.

She needs a curriculum-based assessment and a human to teach her. Online bandaids are not an education.

Is the teacher flexible enough that she'd let DD do Khan Academy instead? Tell her that DD is frustrated with Ten Marks and greatly prefers Khan Academy (and the reasons why Ten Marks is frustrating for her).

Also, ask if there is a way she can do above-level testing to find out what skills she has mastered and what she still needs to work on. DS took the district math test for the grade level ahead and he did well (99 percent?) so I'm going to ask if they can give him 2 grades ahead. Not because I want to move him two grades ahead, but so we can see what skills are mastered/not mastered. Perhaps if the teacher sees results like that, she would be willing to let her do the correct level on Khan Academy, or worksheets at the correct level. Of course all of this is easier said than done. Our district does above-level computerized testing (like MAP) which is helpful, then parents can just point out the score rather than trying to convince teachers based on their own personal observations.

With DD in third grade last year, she was stuck doing the dumb grade-level math at the same pace as everyone else. Her computerized math scores were very high, which the teacher was aware of, but still didn't seem to see the necessity of teaching at the correct level. She got "enrichment packets" to work on a couple times per week on her own, and the teacher thought that was sufficient. I knew I wouldn't get very far so just did what I could with her at home and let the teacher do her thing.

When you have a highly gifted child in math, be prepared for a lot of frustrations. We go through each year looking for the "least worst" school options. I would highly encourage out of grade level testing to see how your DD tests in higher grade level academics.

Based on your post, there are several issues that I would like to provide some insight. I am not an expert, but my DYS DD11 has some similarities to your daughter. She excels in math and has a full grade skip, and as of last year had a double grade skip in math. Her vocabulary and implied comprehension are the areas of relative weakness.

My DD's processing speed has always been fast, and as a result we see her make a lot of careless mistakes. Her working memory is high, and she manipulates a lot of things in her head and skips a lot of different steps (especially in math).

We have tried many different things, but here are some strategies that worked best.

1. Because she was so far ahead in math, most teachers did not work with her very much, and as a result, there were a few building blocks missing from my daughter's math, and they were never discovered or resolved in school. Keep in mind that the computer math programs are a good tool, but not necessarily the best for all learning styles. My DD has not used Project M3 or Ten Marks, so I can’t comment on those specific programs. My DD’s school used ALEKS last year, which was a fill in the answer (not multiple choice answers). It did not include much repetition, and moved through topics rather quickly. There were typically about 500 topics per grade. What we ended up doing was paying a high school math tutor to go in and work with her one-on-one for the topics not mastered toward the end of the year in math in order to fill in any gaps. That one-on-one instruction resulted in a huge progression in her learning. What we found is that there were a few learning gaps, but once discovered and explained, she would zoom ahead until she hit the next road block.

2. With regard to the reading comprehension, there were some glitches with implied comprehension simply because my DD thinks differently than the general population. We ended up with one very good ELA teacher, who took the time to spend with DD on the questions she struggled with (along with the thought process that it took to get the questions right). A lot of the questions in upper grades start getting more obscure, so with the poor wording and vague references, it becomes more of a skill to get answers correct. (Comprehension can also creep into math if your DD is not able to ascertain what the question is asking.)

3. Does the school teach vocabulary in school? What we found was that vocabulary and spelling were kicked to the curb, and our DD had some huge gaps when it came to vocabulary. We ended up using a lot of Vocabulary.com to help build her vocabulary words, and as a result, we have seen a lot better performance since we have incorporated.

4. With regard to processing speed, my DD will zoom through assignments quickly. Careless mistakes occur because of this, so what we do is have her go back and read the questions, and make sure that she ANSWERS the question asked. In Math, she does better when she uses the CUBES methodology on word problems (Circle, Underline, Bracket, Eliminate, and Solve).

Please feel free to PM me if you want more specifics. It has definitely been an interesting journey. Good luck with your DD!

Ironically at this point I'd prefer to go back to EM compared to what she is doing so far. Maybe once the Project M3 starts it will get better. I did have a sit down with the teacher at the beginning of this school year to tell her I was disappointed by the lack of instruction last year and she said she's definitely going to change things this year. Yet they still work on computers, self-instructed/led, like little minions. Granted we're not quite a month into the school year so perhaps she's still assessing where everyone is (it's a 2nd/3rd class so there is quite a wide range of abilities).

Dd is good at math, and she loves it when she learns it how it works for her, which is how we've been doing it at home. But as soon as she does it in school she hates it and complains about how stupid it is. I don't want her to hate math.

I'm really not surprised by that (the 4x6=26). There have been other questions that even myself as an adult find confusing and could be misinterpreted as to what they're looking for so I can't imagine how the 2nd and 3rd graders are doing. Granted I'm not a math whiz, but I'm also better than most.

And I totally agree in regards to a human teaching her. She's in a school that has a gifted class (full time) but also regular classrooms. She'd probably learn more in math if she were in the 4th or 5th grade classes being taught an actual math lesson and doing the work associated with that lesson.

I don't think so. I know she could probably do Khan Academy when she finishes her Ten Marks assignment. Dd did ask her teacher about 2 weeks ago if she could do harder stuff on Ten Marks and the teacher said that if she passes the assessments/assignments she'll get harder material.


I don't think that will happen. They took MAPS assessment and the teacher didn't even refer to them, so why they even take them is beyond me. They rely on their 'assessments' and, sadly, consider them valid enough for placement. I did show the teacher at the beginning of the year what dd had done over the summer and she was very impressed, but it didn't change the level instruction at all.


I'm afraid that's what I'll probably end up having to do. Dd#1 is in 5th grade and while looking at her EM workbook/journal this evening it seemed like the perfect instructional level for dd#2. So I may just end up purchasing it online and having her do it for homework, especially since they don't have homework.

Thank you for your post, it is very reassuring. Unfortunately there isn't a better class or math level. The higher (gifted classes) grades also do Ten Marks and use Connected Math which I think it's similar to Project M3 in regards to how much reading and writing intensive it is. So I don't think being in a class with older children who are capable of writing much more advanced responses to their math questions than dd is a good idea since dd is probably average in her writing abilities. She doesn't even show her work when solving math problems, I can't imagine how she'll be able to write down how she solved it. I'm dreading next year when she will do Connected Math and have to do writing responses.

I sometimes panic and think I'm doing it all wrong. Hopefully dd isn't the only kid in the class having these problems. I will definitely tell dd to just do her best and use this as an opportunity to work on her weaknesses of paying attention to detail, taking her time, and reading comprehension. In the meantime, I will continue to do the math she likes at home.

As if it couldn't get any worse.

Yesterday dd came home with a grade 3 EM homework workbook and the teacher said they need to do about 6 pages of it a week. The problem is they did EM last year and we already have a 3rd grade EM homework book more than half done from last year. I emailed the teacher asking if dd could just do the pages in the workbook from last year that she hasn't completed, in my mind it seems completely pointless to be repeating the homework from last year. The teacher is adamant that everybody is going to go through it as a group and correct it in class. She claimed dd had quite a few wrong answers in hers and she wants to make sure everybody knows the material. I just looked through the workbook from last year and dd RARELY missed a problem as a 2nd grader and now has to redo it as a 3rd grader.

So my next thought is just have dd just rush through and complete the entire workbook ahead of the assigned pages, however, looking through it it pains me to see problems such as 5+7 or write out the fact family numbers for 25,50, and 75 or make arrays for problems such as 6x4. This is just busy work that dd already knows, why should she waste her time doing this when she could be doing much more complex problems like simplifying fractions, adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing fractions, working with square roots, multiplying large numbers together, working with decimals....

I'm so frustrated and really don't know what to do anymore about this. I wish I could homeschool.