Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments "Honors students can teach themselves."

Was talking to DS about school. The conversation went like this:


Me: Okay, you're doing health, physics, French, and history today. What about math (precalc)?

DS: I don't have any math homework.

Me: Light day?

DS: No. We haven't had any in a while because our teacher has been in the hospital.

Me: Yes, you told me that. But you have a sub, right?

DS: Yes. But there's no homework.

Me: Why not?

DS: She's just there to watch us. She told us that this is an honors-level class, and honors students should be able to teach themselves. So we've had to teach ourselves matrices and other stuff. [pause] A lot of the kids in the class didn't even sign up for it. They were forced into it because the non-Honors section was overloaded.

Me: WT#?!? She doesn't teach?

DS: Nope. But we watch the Khan Academy sometimes. But you can't ask questions from a video.

Okay, wise people whose heads aren't exploding at the moment. What would you do? Send an email to someone in charge at the school? The principal? The vice-principal? Someone else?

I'm assuming I'll have to hire a math tutor, given that my bandwidth is full to capacity right now.

ETA: And to add insult to injury, the school wouldn't give DS credit for the very rigorous algebra II course I taught him last year because I'm not "accredited." But it's perfectly okay to hire a babysitter and say that their non-class "meets the standards."

My head exploded sorry. Do you know the parents of any other kids in the class? Might be good to have more than one person visiting the principal. Also can you check - see if the stories add up, what training does the sub have etc. I was especially concerned about kids being forced (or even persuaded) to do honours as it has to affect the kids who do want to be there.

Sounds crazy anyway. Keep us informed.

I'm certain about the non-Honors kids being forced in. The guidance counselor told us in August. She said that DS's only option for pre-calc was the honors class because...etc.

I don't know any of the kids in this class. DS is new to the school this year and the only parents I know don't have kids in this class. I don't even know how to get in touch with them.

Yes my head exploded too. This is totally plausible to me. When I was in HS my ap bio teacher was out for about 5 months. We had a long term substitute who told us the same thing that your son's sub told him. After a few weeks of sitting around doing nothing, (pre khan academy days), one of our classmates taught the class for several months.

I would go to the principal asap.

I'd find my way to the principal's office ASAP, and make sure they were aware of the situation. Perhaps the principal is under the impression that the substitute teacher is in fact teaching. Perhaps the principal will work to remedy the situation if they are informed about what is going on. (Or if they realize parents have become informed.)

She's just there to watch us. She told us that this is an honors-level class, and honors students should be able to teach themselves.

Wow. So our Harpy is apparently moonlighting as a sub in math, now.



Seriously-- this is SO MUCH like what she actually said to one of DD's closest friends. Honors Biology, term project worth 20% of their course grade... NO guidelines, no instructions, no nothing. So he calls to ask.

"You're an honors student. YOU figure it out."



Yeah, sorry-- but even bright kids need some kind of teaching. Maybe it's not what most students need, but this mentality of laziness pedagogically HAS to stop. It just has to.

I get very angry at the implication that if my daughter can't teach HERSELF trigonometry, statistics, calculus, physics... German....

that she must "not be that bright."

It just doesn't seem to me like a wee bit of effort is too much to ask. Is an hour or two of weekly instruction with a living teacher too much to expect?? KWIM?

Wow.

Is this the same (private?) school where your DD has had the uphill battle with Ms. T? I'm trying to decide whether a yes or no response makes me more horrified.

Presumably these people are all paid for teaching and have to abide by professional conduct standards, no?

I think some heads need to roll. Stat.

In a not-so-happy ending to the Harpy saga, btw, I did talk to the principal-- at great length-- who basically told ME to pound sand.

I've had the same conversation about five times over the past four years, btw, and it ends the same way every time.

The sly innuendo that if my kid isn't up to Owning Her Own Educational Process enough to make up for the fact that, well, she has no teacher contact.... well, then, there must be something the matter with HER.

AYKM??


The kernel of an idea behind this farce, btw, seems to be the notion that:

i. the most successful students are fairly autodidactic in nature.


ERGO...

ii. if all students were autodidacts, they would all be successful.

Hmmm... clearly, students who are FORCED to become autodidactic will become better students. Yes!


This is the same stupid logical fallacy that leads to pushing students into algebra by 8th grade and AP classes for everyone, prepared or not. The administrators that I've spoken to on this subject simply have ZERO appreciation for the work done in this area which demonstrates pretty much nothing of the kind for adolescents and children, nevermind the mountains of evidence that say that adolescents require significant scaffolding since they don't yet have fully mature executive function to support "ownership" of learning in this manner.

But yeah-- I'm just a mom. What could I possibly have to add to that conversation with "experts" like a high school principal? {sigh}

It's also what I strongly suspect leads to a graduation rate below 40% in my DD's school.


Don't get me wrong-- I wish you luck, and given that you're looking at a brick and mortar model, maybe you will have more success. But just a head's up for the weaseling way of DEFENDING crap like this.

Aquinas: nope, this is a public high school. Though the effect at both is the same.

Based on the stuff I've seen and read over the years, I suspect that the definition of "professional conduct" used by schools is very different from what the rest of the world uses. Or maybe they just attach the word "ideally" to the standard definition and let things slide.

Only schools could claim that teacher assessment is unfair, that $70K per year (average in our district) with 3 months off is underpaid, and that their problems are really mom and dad's fault.

Sorry. I'm going on ten years of this stuff and am getting increasingly bitter.

I will contact the principal this evening when my head is cooler.

HK, yes, I suspect precisely what you said.

It's all still "go to the library and don't bother anyone" on some level, isn't it?

That's what makes me SO angry about this. Dressing it up as some kind of exaltation of the cult of autodidactism is just plain INSULTING.

This is the same kind of thinking among educators that leads them to shoving gifted children in the corner to get NOTHING educationally, while less able classmates get to interact with an enthusiastic educator and LEARN new things each day.


Shouldn't ALL children have the right to instruction at an appropriate level?

Burns. my. biscuits. Big time.

Every child is gifted, which is why they're all autodicacts capable of taking algebra in 8th grade.

Your kid isn't gifted because if he was, he would have taught himself the stuff about matrices.

Round and round we go.

Val, I fear that taking this issue up with the principal may be akin to tilting at windmills, because how many substitute teachers are adequately qualified to teach Honors Pre-Calculus? And if they had any, why would they be working as subs?

Anyone with a math degree SHOULD be capable of doing it-- given a decent curriculum, I mean. It's not that hard.

Dude, I agree. I'll go through the motions, expect the worst, and hope for the best.

Though I suspect they should be able to find someone in Silicon Valley, but whatever.

DS has just decided that he'd prefer to go over this stuff with me here and there until the first week of June, when we'll use Brown's Advanced Math and will meet for an hour 3-4 times per week.

My DS had a sub in Chinese for an extended period of time that didn't know Chinese. I suspect these things happen more often than we realize. A math class is much worst to me. I can see how it is hard to find a Chinese sub, but Math?

Val, I've been dealing with a similar situation for MONTHS!! Ds12's science teacher quit very soon after school started and ds has had a sub in that class for months. She doesn't teach anything. The kids are expected to read the textbook which ds has described as being "nothing more than lumps of paper on the desk" because they're in such bad shape. This is not an honors class though, so there's not much of anything going on. The sub, who's been somewhat of a regular, gave them a study guide on the digestive system to take home, a study guide that they were supposed to complete but much of the material didn't make sense because her sentences were incomplete, poorly constructed, intentionally or accidentally misleading and otherwise lacking. The test they took following that, however, was on the respiratory system which they had read about, or were supposed to read about, weeks earlier. DS didn't do so well on it (72 raised up to an 82 after able to correct 10 answers). He said the questions didn't make sense, and I concur, some of them didn't, but I also noticed he didn't really know the material in the way he might have if he'd studied. (Study? I have to study?) Good lesson. Anyway, I've been after schooling when there's time.

All that aside, that anyone would think that gifted kids are not entitled to LEARN is beyond the pale. I've had enough of this kind of negligence.

I would definitely send a strongly worded email followed by a visit, particularly if you are paying private tuition on top of property taxes. My kids attend public schools and there is basically no teaching by the substitute if it's just a few days. The regular teacher, if she is responsible, generally leaves packets and very detailed instructions on what is to occur during class. In our experience, the only times that a substitute has actually taught has been long-term substitutes. I am assuming that by "a while" your DS means a week or longer so you are definitely justified in being annoyed.

So if honors kids can teach themselves the honors classes, it stands to reason that the regular kids could teach themselves the regular classes. There, the school should have no more budget issues, because teachers aren't actually necessary.

Right. And because everyone will be "autodidactic" then, learning HAS to improve.

Right?

HK, this happens with ds12. He is one of a few who are interested in learning anything in his LA class and his teacher will send this small group of quiet kids to the library so "they can work in peace and not be distracted by the rest of the class." Something is very wrong with this. Why is it the 3/4 of the kids who don't want to be there and are behavior problems the ones who get the instruction? Why are they allowed to dictate how the class is taught (or not taught)? Why are they not the ones to go to the library? Or the office? Or ISS?
I can answer that: there would hardly be anyone left to teach.

"Why are they allowed to dictate"????

This sounds like the straightforward operation of democracy, not of some sort of autocracy.

Three-fourths of a classroom is clearly an overwhelming majority.

The governmental institution at issue here is functioning as it should by providing the services that are requested by the student constituents.

A school is not a democracy

Ha! Well ya got me there.

Well, then maybe it's a consumer good of some sort.

Does it take credit cards?

DD is in a "gifted cluster group" and when the regular lecture is too boring for the gifted kids, the teacher tells them to get out their "enrichment packet". So while the teacher is lecturing to the other kids, DD is supposed to work on her own on the packet. She could easily spend 30 min. staring at a problem that could take 30 seconds if there had just been a little bit of advanced instruction or hints from the teacher. Once she finally gives up and turns it in, the teacher writes back "Try again", and might write one vague hint. And then DD spends another 30 min. staring at the problem. Meanwhile the rest of the class (those not in the cluster group) are actually learning math from the teacher. DD also gets to pick "enriched books" to read during independent reading time. So 5th grade level books instead of 3rd grade. There is no instruction on the books, no ability grouping for reading. That's what the gifted "cluster grouping" is --independent work a couple times per week and she gets to choose 5th grade novels instead of Magic Tree House to read on her own. Why they even put those 4 gifted third graders with the same teacher in the same class, I have no idea. They don't meet as a group and don't interact, and there is no direct instruction.

Only in post-secondary.

This just makes me sad for kids trapped by it-- and ANGRY that any educator thinks that this is okay.

I'll also mention that it pretty much reflects the ethos of the online providers we've had experience with.

Evidently that model is specifically intended to "empower" students in exactly these ways. Sure. "Discovery" of calculus (or anything else) this way seems like a good idea, huh?


The feedback that students get in this kind of model is VERY binary, is the problem-- they invest a lot of time (as noted above) and then the result is either "yes!" or "no-- try again."

Think that fuels perfectionism much? What seems crazy to me is that this is the precise population one might expect to be most susceptible to perfectionism, and it's as though they are setting up a system that makes it even HARDER to such kids to admit that they need help, accept constructive criticism, or maintain a growth mindset.

It's toxic.


Grrr.

This is precisely the approach our math harpy takes. DD was supposed to redo "incorrect" homework problems last night. I looked at them. The answers to 3 out of 6 were correct and so was the procedure she used. But the harpy marked them wrong because they hadn't been formatted correctly ("skip a line here; write this kind of line instead of that kind of line, etc.").

One of the particularly noxious things about our harpy is that sometimes she expects the kids to follow the directions in the book and sometimes she doesn't. The distinction between the two is hard to figure out. Yet she writes nasty notes on their homework saying, "Follow the directions!!" when they do a problem her way instead of the book's.

And as you noted on the first page of this thread, the teachers (or babysitters in some cases) we're all complaining about will be defended by the people in charge of them.

I have already complained about my other kid's teacher at the time I pulled him out, and it didn't go anywhere. She was truly heinous and toxic and the principal looked at me like I'm a nutcase and said "she's one of the best teachers in the district. You should see the kids when I go in her class and she is reading to them. They are completely mesmerized." Well, that's very nice Mr. Principal but are those kids learning anything else? Does she do anything special for kids with disabilities or those who are advanced? I haven't said anything about DD's teacher, because she does actually seem to care about DD. She is just very misguided in her teaching methods and handling of the gifted kids. Although I have complained to upper level admin about the "cluster grouping" in general and how silly and ineffective it is. No one seems to care. On their website they can claim they have a "gifted program" and "personalized learning" (hahahaha), so that they can attract students and trick the parents, and that's all they care about.

If honours students can teach themselves though more advanced students should be able to teach themselves in half the time. Somebody better tell the colleges - imagine the savings they could make!

You should see the kids when I go in her class and she is reading to them. They are completely mesmerized. astonished by this extraordinary train of events-- it's like they NEVER expected her to be so nice, or to actually interact with them in a learning activity like that!"


There. Fixed it for him.

This is almost exactly what my ds was going through in 4th grade last year.
The teacher basically said she hated it but she could only give my son a work sheet and say "here smart kid figure it out yourself". She said this at an EOY meeting that included the likely suspects including the director of curriculum, middle school and high school principals, middle school and high school math teachers and 2 other elementary school principles. you could hear a pin drop.

The bad part is my kid is the one with his hand up every time all the time.

Ugh-ugh-ugh.

"Mom, this wasn't IN the textbook. What do I do now??"

This for the AP statistics course that my child has NO real teacher for.


{sigh} I looked-- she's right, they were NEVER taught this.

Similarly, Precalc (MTH112) she also has NO teacher for. In today's Adventures in Autodidactism, we also have two entries from that class:

A matrix method that they have NEVER been taught appeared in not one, but TWO exam problems in the last unit. Oh-- and a matrix algebra-then-law-of-sines-then-law-of-cosines problem that she needed TWO OTHER textbooks to even UNDERSTAND... which also hasn't been covered in the course materials. Presumably the teacher was supposed to cover this.

DD's contact with the teacher is limited to:

a. Office hours-- "can you work this problem in the class textbook"

b. Can I retake that exam?

The teacher has such poor English communication skills that occasionally item B and item A are confused, an an exam gets "reset" when her question was about something else entirely. (Really-- not kidding. "Did you miss my short answer responses on questions 8 and 9" turned into an exam reset.)



In the second entry, on polar coordinate systems and graphs of functions within the same, one of the answer boxes didn't allow students sufficient number of characters to offer the CORRECT answer. Yes, folks, that's right-- students COULD NOT answer correctly. COULD not.



This is driving me MAD. Seriously, how is anyone expected to learn this way? Nobody who isn't at least HG+ has a CHANCE to do it...

In today's entry, the lesson quiz asked them for something that was not covered in the textbook. Again.

Thank you, Lial and Hornsby, for at least providing authentic coverage of this material. Too bad the example in the actual class-assigned textbook is cut off due to a printing error. (Really, really, REALLY not kidding. I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.)

She can't get the online textbook to even load for her, so that isn't a work-around.

Wow, Mom-- I can see why I have the best grade in the class if the online textbook won't even load.

No wonder my daughter doesn't think math is much FUN.


O-kayyyy... her class assessments are doing this BIZARRO thing where they are *not* fully simplifying equations upon conversion from polar to rectangular coordinate systems... so DD now has to remember that FOR THE CLASS, she has to effectively tack on this stupid "complete-the-square" notation step in order to get "the right answers."



Gaaaa.

Lial and Hornsby didn't seem to see any purpose in doing that. LOL. Of course, the examples in L&H were actually *complete*, too, which was helpful.

Good lord. Well, at least it only took an hour for me to figure out the work-around for today's instructional snafu.