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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    It's all still "go to the library and don't bother anyone" on some level, isn't it?

    That's what makes me SO angry about this. Dressing it up as some kind of exaltation of the cult of autodidactism is just plain INSULTING.

    This is the same kind of thinking among educators that leads them to shoving gifted children in the corner to get NOTHING educationally, while less able classmates get to interact with an enthusiastic educator and LEARN new things each day.


    Shouldn't ALL children have the right to instruction at an appropriate level?

    Burns. my. biscuits. Big time.

    HK, this happens with ds12. He is one of a few who are interested in learning anything in his LA class and his teacher will send this small group of quiet kids to the library so "they can work in peace and not be distracted by the rest of the class." Something is very wrong with this. Why is it the 3/4 of the kids who don't want to be there and are behavior problems the ones who get the instruction? Why are they allowed to dictate how the class is taught (or not taught)? Why are they not the ones to go to the library? Or the office? Or ISS?
    I can answer that: there would hardly be anyone left to teach.

    Last edited by KADmom; 02/13/14 06:45 PM.
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    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Something is very wrong with this. Why is it the 3/4 of the kids who don't want to be there and are behavior problems the ones who get the instruction? Why are they allowed to dictate how the class is taught (or not taught)? Why are they not the ones to go to the library? Or the office? Or ISS?
    I can answer that: there would hardly be anyone left to teach.

    "Why are they allowed to dictate"????

    This sounds like the straightforward operation of democracy, not of some sort of autocracy.

    Three-fourths of a classroom is clearly an overwhelming majority.

    The governmental institution at issue here is functioning as it should by providing the services that are requested by the student constituents.

    Last edited by JonLaw; 02/13/14 08:03 PM.
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    A school is not a democracy

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    Ha! Well ya got me there.

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    A school is not a democracy

    Well, then maybe it's a consumer good of some sort.

    Does it take credit cards?

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    DD is in a "gifted cluster group" and when the regular lecture is too boring for the gifted kids, the teacher tells them to get out their "enrichment packet". So while the teacher is lecturing to the other kids, DD is supposed to work on her own on the packet. She could easily spend 30 min. staring at a problem that could take 30 seconds if there had just been a little bit of advanced instruction or hints from the teacher. Once she finally gives up and turns it in, the teacher writes back "Try again", and might write one vague hint. And then DD spends another 30 min. staring at the problem. Meanwhile the rest of the class (those not in the cluster group) are actually learning math from the teacher. DD also gets to pick "enriched books" to read during independent reading time. So 5th grade level books instead of 3rd grade. There is no instruction on the books, no ability grouping for reading. That's what the gifted "cluster grouping" is --independent work a couple times per week and she gets to choose 5th grade novels instead of Magic Tree House to read on her own. Why they even put those 4 gifted third graders with the same teacher in the same class, I have no idea. They don't meet as a group and don't interact, and there is no direct instruction.

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    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    Originally Posted by puffin
    A school is not a democracy

    Well, then maybe it's a consumer good of some sort.

    Does it take credit cards?

    Only in post-secondary. grin


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    DD is in a "gifted cluster group" and when the regular lecture is too boring for the gifted kids, the teacher tells them to get out their "enrichment packet". So while the teacher is lecturing to the other kids, DD is supposed to work on her own on the packet. She could easily spend 30 min. staring at a problem that could take 30 seconds if there had just been a little bit of advanced instruction or hints from the teacher. Once she finally gives up and turns it in, the teacher writes back "Try again", and might write one vague hint. And then DD spends another 30 min. staring at the problem. Meanwhile the rest of the class (those not in the cluster group) are actually learning math from the teacher. DD also gets to pick "enriched books" to read during independent reading time. So 5th grade level books instead of 3rd grade. There is no instruction on the books, no ability grouping for reading. That's what the gifted "cluster grouping" is --independent work a couple times per week and she gets to choose 5th grade novels instead of Magic Tree House to read on her own. Why they even put those 4 gifted third graders with the same teacher in the same class, I have no idea. They don't meet as a group and don't interact, and there is no direct instruction.

    This just makes me sad for kids trapped by it-- and ANGRY that any educator thinks that this is okay.

    I'll also mention that it pretty much reflects the ethos of the online providers we've had experience with.

    Evidently that model is specifically intended to "empower" students in exactly these ways. Sure. "Discovery" of calculus (or anything else) this way seems like a good idea, huh? frown


    The feedback that students get in this kind of model is VERY binary, is the problem-- they invest a lot of time (as noted above) and then the result is either "yes!" or "no-- try again."

    Think that fuels perfectionism much? smirk What seems crazy to me is that this is the precise population one might expect to be most susceptible to perfectionism, and it's as though they are setting up a system that makes it even HARDER to such kids to admit that they need help, accept constructive criticism, or maintain a growth mindset.

    It's toxic.


    Grrr.


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    The feedback that students get in this kind of model is VERY binary, is the problem-- they invest a lot of time (as noted above) and then the result is either "yes!" or "no-- try again."

    Think that fuels perfectionism much? smirk ... makes it even HARDER to such kids to admit that they need help, accept constructive criticism, or maintain a growth mindset.

    This is precisely the approach our math harpy takes. DD was supposed to redo "incorrect" homework problems last night. I looked at them. The answers to 3 out of 6 were correct and so was the procedure she used. But the harpy marked them wrong because they hadn't been formatted correctly ("skip a line here; write this kind of line instead of that kind of line, etc.").

    One of the particularly noxious things about our harpy is that sometimes she expects the kids to follow the directions in the book and sometimes she doesn't. The distinction between the two is hard to figure out. Yet she writes nasty notes on their homework saying, "Follow the directions!!" when they do a problem her way instead of the book's.

    And as you noted on the first page of this thread, the teachers (or babysitters in some cases) we're all complaining about will be defended by the people in charge of them. frown

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    I have already complained about my other kid's teacher at the time I pulled him out, and it didn't go anywhere. She was truly heinous and toxic and the principal looked at me like I'm a nutcase and said "she's one of the best teachers in the district. You should see the kids when I go in her class and she is reading to them. They are completely mesmerized." Well, that's very nice Mr. Principal but are those kids learning anything else? Does she do anything special for kids with disabilities or those who are advanced? I haven't said anything about DD's teacher, because she does actually seem to care about DD. She is just very misguided in her teaching methods and handling of the gifted kids. Although I have complained to upper level admin about the "cluster grouping" in general and how silly and ineffective it is. No one seems to care. On their website they can claim they have a "gifted program" and "personalized learning" (hahahaha), so that they can attract students and trick the parents, and that's all they care about.

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