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    DeeDee #181189 02/01/14 05:00 PM
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    So I am thinking if both b&m and virtual are suckage then my son might prefer the virtual suckage than the live suckage.

    My dh and I are debating what we are going to do for middle school (we still have this year and 5th grade to get through) and home school is what we are considering. I don't hate science, but eh I am not sciency unless it is biology and something I am really interested in...I would rather out source science than teach it.


    ...reading is pleasure, not just something teachers make you do in school.~B. Cleary
    DeeDee #181196 02/01/14 10:15 PM
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    I've heard quite a bit about Aurora Lipper and her Supercharged Science, but I don't have any true experience with it.

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    We've had good and bad experiences with online science classes.

    Polar, what institution ran the ones that your DS liked?

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    he cruised through the class material independently and did very well in the class as well as the labs (which he did independently at home). The second online class he took, from the same institution, was a complete bust for him.

    I think there are definitely well and poorly designed/taught courses-- the difficulty being that you don't know what you're in for until you've paid...

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    OTOH, he's bored to tears with the actual material presented in school, which is the reason he's wanted to take online courses.

    I hadn't realized how bad things had gotten until DS came home very excited because *he had actually learned a new thing in science*. In January.

    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Ultimately what our ds has enjoyed the most have been summer science camps where he's in with a group of students. Last summer he had a camp at a university that was led by grad students and that's been his favorite so far.

    Would you mind PMing me the name of the camp? Nothing is off the table at this point, though I do need to solve the school situation.

    Thanks,
    DeeDee

    DeeDee #181220 02/02/14 08:46 AM
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    I just wanted to throw out two other options. They don't meet HowlerKarma's requirements fully, but as best I've seen, the science is sound, the information is well presented and the cost isn't so outlandish that you'll feel compelled to stick with it no matter what.

    Ck12.org- Both middle and high school level science. I've spent more time looking at the middle school. No live science labs, no live teacher, but essentially a well written textbook, with a teacher guide (on request) and interactives, questions and videos imbedded.

    UCScout.org- Free if you're in California and looking at self-paced, also comes with the option of hiring a local teacher to proctor or to pay for the UC Scout teacher to proctor it. UC a-g approved and fairly well designed. We are using it for math and my son really likes it. I find that it doesn't have enough practice problems, so we alternate between Khan and Scout.

    DeeDee #181226 02/02/14 09:23 AM
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    It is difficult to recommend online science courses at the early high school level without more information.

    Is the school situation which you need to solve that in January DS excitedly reported that he had learned something new in science? Are you looking for a replacement for classroom curriculum? Or something for after-schooling to prepare for an out-of-level test?

    If looking for a replacement for classroom curriculum, have there been ongoing complaints from DS regarding boredom in science class throughout the school year? Has teacher input at conferences, feedback on tests/assessments, labs or projects, been consistent with a student needing replacement curriculum in the classroom? Are there results from out-of-level tests which would tend to support advocacy efforts in this area?

    If concerned that DS recently reported learning something new, is your son especially passionate about a particular unit of science? Are there science topics which he may have studied independently in great depth and breadth over the years, therefore was surprised to learn something new in his area of expertise? While studying science in his classroom do the science topics/units change frequently? Does the syllabus show that he may soon be studying a different topic/unit?

    Regarding any online course, are there 2e accommodations which may need to be taken into account in your selection process? Is reading comprehension and science vocabulary at a high school level or above? What grade level is DS currently in? If currently in early high school, what science course is he currently taking... Biology, Honors Biology, Chemistry, AP Chem, Earth Science, Marine Biology, Environmental, AP Environmental, etc?

    Sorry that this is not a pat answer, but science is a very broad area and there are many different needs which individual students may have when their families are seeking an online curriculum for them.

    Lastly, as you mentioned teaching an online course at the college level, and the fact that quality may vary depending upon the instructor, might your colleagues in online ed be a resource for you in choosing an online science course (and recommending an instructor) at the early high school level?

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    LaurelSprings raises many of the red flags that I've learned about with online providers over the years-- namely, there can't be BOTH "real live interactions with teacher and classmates!" and "work at your own pace-- endless flexibility!"

    KWIM? Either the schedule works synchronously (like any other school class tends to) or it works in a vacuum and completely self-paced (independent EPGY, Khan, etc.) but it can't be BOTH at the same time
    That makes sense.

    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Oh-- and surprise-surprise, none of their science offerings meet UC's standards for a-g, either. Now, that's a red flag for me in a different way... I mean, it doesn't matter if you aren't applying to UC, I suppose. But it's a warning that the post-secondary academy doesn't consider the course to be sufficiently rigorous to serve as "college preparation" in the subject-- at least not as it stands.
    That is good to know. All I knew is that there history classes did count for A-G. Didn't really look very far into the science classes except to know they existed.

    It can be very hard to judge these places without any personal knowledge. Last year I was looking at Japanese online classes and had difficulty finding any that seemed "good enough" and gave up. Decided that community college classes were the better way to go, and that it would be best to wait for a bit more maturity out of DS before trying the community college class.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Name brands that I would (most certainly) AVOID-AVOID-AVOID:

    1. Connections Learning
    2. Pearson
    3. KC (Distance) education
    4. FLVS-- this is the Florida Virtual School
    5. Virtual Sage

    I have heard bad things about Connections Learning and Pearson from people who have used their courses. However, I have not heard of issues with KC education or FLVS and have not heard of Virtual Sage period. Do you (or your DD)have first hand experience taking courses from KC or FLVS? It seemed hard to tell without actual first-hand experience through the particular course even though your point in general regarding lack of adequate lab opportunities is a given. These online courses also seem somewhat teacher dependent.

    This is just on my distant radar and likely only for more exotic offerings rather than the meat and potato courses like bio, chem and physics.

    DeeDee #181242 02/02/14 12:39 PM
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    Yes, my experience is firsthand via DD for all of the above. The one exception is that I have NOT seen a lot of assessments under FLVS, so I can't say if those are in great alignment or well-written generally speaking. What I have seen has been not awful, but not awesome, either.

    Understand that many students don't have major issues with any of them-- but that gifted students (IME/IMO) almost certainly WILL. MOST students in HS science classes are memorizers, not "understanders." Therefore, they aren't really engaging the way sciencey kids do, and almost certainly not the way HG+ ones do.

    There is at least one other member here that I know would agree with me on all of the above points. I think that he ultimately withdrew his PG child partially on the basis of determining that the underlying problems were structurally-based in curriculum design, and support for the same.

    Those courses are written by contract-- low bidding, basically-- and often in virtual sweatshops, which is precisely the problem with Virtual Sage. I know because I tracked down message board posts from tech writers on contract who warned about them on jobs boards-- that they paid poorly and not on time, that their timelines were INSANE for product delivery... and that no, it didn't really require subject expertise, since they provided the electronic version of the course texts... (no worries, right?) or that in courses without texts, not to worry because the course syllabus was quite detailed and gave a lot of guidance on the types of content to include. Oh, and that the assessments weren't part of the 'package' either way-- those were contracted separately.

    All of that information explained a VERY great deal about the problems with the curriculum.

    One of the questions from a Virtual Sage course was so bad that I remember it even all these years later--

    in this question, students were expected to "understand" that seismicity and vulcanism are unrelated phenomena. eek

    Well, my daughter, being a fairly science-y kid, and living ON the ring of fire, 'understood' no such thing. And argued vociferously on this point, in fact. All she did was alienate the teacher, who labeled her a trouble-maker.


    Anyway. That kind of thing is stunningly common in online courses-- the problem isn't any ONE thing, it's everything. Bad curriculum writing (at best, mediocre, IMO), AWOL teaching, and assessment writing by people who clearly should have had more rigorous gen-ed coursework in college. Fix any ONE of them, and it becomes more tolerable. Fix them all, and the experience can be quite a good one. My DD's AP Phsyics class was about a 1.5 out of three proposition... teacher was great, and the assessments and curriculum bit were about two stars out of four each.

    It just usually isn't that good-- for the reasons that DeeDee noted. It takes a LOT of time to teach well, and short-cuts and canned curriculum to "automate" the process don't really work as an adequate stand-in most of the time.


    I mean, yes-- I'd choose this over actively AWFUL B&M science, probably. Sure. Well, some of the online stuff is pretty awful, too, honestly...





    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    DeeDee #181246 02/02/14 01:47 PM
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    Let's just stipulate that we're not signing up for anything awful... live or automated... :-P

    Thanks.

    DeeDee #181254 02/02/14 04:44 PM
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    Good choice. smile


    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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